Throwdown Voting Blind Poll

[SmokinAussie]

Thanks Phil,

I'm kinda sorry I posted this thread. Also, I'm kinda not sorry.

Quite a few of the people commenting here go way back with me and I love them like brothers.

We remember a time before Dilly Bars. We remember a time when the voters really did decide.

Chris was big on that. I know he got a lot of flak and it was Chris who did introduce the DQ. He kept it very open till that point and after that things got difficult.

I'll cut to how it goes in 2015. Mods are on a hiding to nothing with with every entrant picking some angle on a rule. Members now just fire questions to the TD mods to see what happens. It's a game. No surprise that the MODS make some stupid decisions as has been well documented by contributors that have been told to back off.

The Mods should not have to put up with that crap in any case. The mods should set up the thread and announce the winners. That's all they should have to do.

Merge the threads. Discussion and Cook. It's more work for the mods to separate. And the divergence only took place because members that are no longer here were far too serious to have some fun.

Blind voting or transparent voting?

Looks like it doesn't really matter. I'm astounded that it doesn't matter! But it doesn't matter. I can take that medicine.

My thoughts.

THIS has got to be a section within the forum where we ENCOURAGE members to have a crack, and put your best foot forward.

It's NOT about DQ's, asking to have an entry DQ'd. Rule validation, or anything else. It's just for the love of BBQ and to see members put up their efforts in the most honest way.

I hope this makes some sense and God Bless you all.

Cheers!

Bill

 

[smoke ninja]

Don't feel sorry for the op Smokin. a good discussion is part of what forums are all about. aside from when it got chippy at the end it was productive.

Every once in awhile we need to take a look in the mirror and take a look back to see how it is how we got here.

 

[BBQchef33]

Bill.. no problem hashing out how the membership would like to see things function, and like i said, I leave that up to TD mods and participants.. I was not addressing the original topic and discussion.

but back handed, thinly veiled comments about the outcome of the 2014 GM poll, is not only offtopic to your question, but the behavior is spilling across multiple threads and is going to stop. We are getting tired of running interference.

 

[Wampus]

Holy CRAP.......

I get the passion and the concerns and even the heated opinions, but DAYUM.
Some of the stuff I have read here.....wow.


Don't get me wrong...thanks for putting up the poll and this thread Bill.
People should be able to express their thoughts and it's been interesting in reading different people's take on stuff.


One thing I always liked about the TD's was that it was never really all THAT serious. Granted, I've been here since 2009 so I remember the time when TD's were in Q-Talk. But what I liked was that people could enter and people could vote how ever they wanted. Back when I payed a lot of attention to the TD's then, it was all in good fun, an honor system sort of thing and very light hearted. I'm one who, even today, looks at the poll entry photos and votes based on those single entry photos. If I'm stuck between a couple, I'll open up those threads and further research it. If you don't vote the way I do SO WHAT? That's how I have chosen to look at things. Are there unspoken rules for how people should vote now? Sort of makes me just not want to vote any more either, like I'd be doing some sort of disservice to the entrants.

I haven't entered a TD in a long time. Frankly, I just haven't posted much pron in a LONG time either. I cook so much that I just don't think about taking photos much anymore. I sure don't take the time to plan around a Throwdown. Hey, if people want to do that, awesome! I'm glad they do and I have been actually hanging around here more often in recent months to look and vote.



But all this farking drama? Sheesh.
Bad form I say.


I hope you all know how much I love this place.
This is the ONLY online forum I have ever been a member of for anything.
I never knew such things existed before I came here and I have never searched out other online communities since coming here.

I have grown to love this place IMMENSELY.
I have some serious friends ONLY because of this place and the relationships that have grown here.


Keep it real y'all.
Remember the spirit of this place. Respect it, or IN MY OPINION, you don't deserve to hang here.

I'm all about debating, expressing my opinion, even flat out arguing. Any of you who have wandered into N&P know that about me. That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about THIS:

OK... I want to preface this by saying that this is Ronelle the Brethren member speaking, and NOT Ron_L the Brethren moderator.

There have been a lot of things tossed around in here and some great feedback. I'd like to add my thoughts on some of them. I am also NOT addressing these to anyone in particular, so please don't read any of this as targeted at any Brethren member.

1. The TDs, prizes and fun - When these crazy things started it was done to have fun and to give us a way to show off our cooking and photography skills. Yes, cooking is most important, but a good picture can make a huge difference. Anyway, Somewhere along the way the much-sought-after, highly-collectible Throwdown Certificate was introduced for the winner and that became something that we could use to brag about our wins. I still have the certificate from my first win in a frame! A couple of years ago the participation was dwindling so the idea of prizes came up and one of our Brethren Ventures members was asked to become our first TD sponsor (Thanks, Big Brother Smoke!). The response was very positive so the prizes continued. But, I agree that things started getting serious once prizes were introduced, especially when the prize was red meat :-D But, our members outside of the US typically aren't eligible for the prizes, and they continue to participate, so it can't just be for the prize. They must still be having at least some fun :-D

2. The TD Forum and Separate Threads - The TDs started out in QTalk. A few years ago (2010, I think) threads related to the TDs were taking over QTalk. I'm not talking about cook threads, but lots of folks were posting "Check out my entry" type of threads. These were getting out of hand so the TD management at the time requested that the Forum Management create a separate forum inside of QTalk dedicated to the TDs. When this was done the agreement with the TD Management was that only the TD Moderators would post "Check out the TD" threads. Anyone is free to post their cook threads in QTalk (that's what QTalk is for, after all) and link to the TD, but multiple "Check out my entry" threads are not allowed. All other TD-specific threads belong in the TD forum.

At that point we still had one thread for entries and "banter". Unfortunately, the banter evolved into some serious whackadoodling and feedback from the members was that the whackadoodling was intimidating and keeping them from entering the TDs. In an effort to encourage more folks to enter, the separate on and off topic threads were created. We did discuss keeping the entry thread restricted to only entries and no discussion but the consensus at the time was against that.

3. Campaigning for votes - Campaigning, or shilling or whatever you want to call it, is NOT against the rules. But, through the course of the TDs it has become frowned-upon and considered bad form, just like voting for yourself. I don't remember when this occurred but it was before prizes were involved, so the addition of prizes did not cause this. It must be that certificate . It may have been a byproduct of the posting restriction in QTalk, but, again, I don't remember. Even though this was frowned-upon, is has still gone on, but typically in private using PMs. There have been times in the past where members were called out for this, the most recent being in the Grand Master TD poll where two members were called out for using the PM system to shill for votes. They claim that they were just trying to get more folks to participate in the TDs, but unless they send out these bulk PMs for every TD and not only the ones where they have an entry, that motive is suspect . But since this is NOT against the rules, there is nothing that the TD or Forum mods can do about it. They are here to enforce the TD and forum rules, and if there is no rule violated they cannot take action.

4. Recruiting new members solely for the purpose of voting - This is another area where the TD and forum mods hands are tied. There is nothing in the TD rules that prohibits this. In addition, this can be very hard to prove. Circumstantial evidence suggests that this happened, but the member allegedly involved claimed that he was inviting friends to join the forum, and once they join he has no control over what they do once they join and how much they participate. Is this practice unethical? If it was done for the sole purpose of getting votes to win a TD and the prize, then I believe it is. But, we want everyone to recruit new members so we continue to grow, so it is a fine line. Either way, no rules have been broken, so no action can be taken. BUT, things can be done to prevent this in the future, and new restrictions have been put in place regarding who is allowed to vote in any poll, not just the TDs. These restrictions affect all new members, so someone who just joined may find themselves locked out of voting, but if they are here to become part of our family they will be able to vote before they know it.

5. The polls and visibility - This has been discussed in the past and at the time the consensus was to keep the polls transparent. That meant that once you voted you would be able to see the vote totals and who voted. Since the debacle in the 2014 Grand Master poll the TD management decided to try an experiment and keep all poll results secret until after the poll closes. Hence the reason for this thread and Bill's poll :shock:. There are really three options for polls...

• Public Polls - this is what we used to do.
• Hidden results - what we have in the current TD votes threads
• Private Polls - the results are hidden until you vote. After that you see the vote totals, but not who voted.

Any of these options can be selected on a per-poll basis so there is some flexibility.

6. Anonymous Entries - The idea that Jeanie posted about entries being submitted in secret and identified by a number, or something similar, has been discussed in the past. This is only anonymous until the entry pictures are posted. Once posted, the entrant can easily send a PM to his/her friends telling them which entry is theirs, and the anonymity is lost, so while this may appear to stop favoritism, in reality it doesn't change anything.

This turned out to be longer than I thought, so if you made it this far, thank you for your attention.

Let's try to get past all of this drama and make the Throwdowns fun again! I would love to see 20 - 30 entries in every TD, as we had in the past! If you've never entered a TD, give it a shot! I've prodded some of our members to enter and the response is that they wouldn't have a chance to win. Winning is cool, but entering and showing others your creations is where the real fun is, so enter! You never know what type of entry will win! Heck, some guy won recently with a bowl of soup! :becky:

Ron's spot on. Let's get past all the drama.
The fact that the TD's have gone from what they were to (and THROUGH) all of THAT.....crazy.

Frankly, I'm kinda glad I missed out on most of it.


Just my 2 cents.
Love y'all.

:yo:

 

[Will work for bbq]

Bill.. no problem hashing out how the membership would like to see things function, and like i said, I leave that up to TD mods and participants.. I was not addressing the original topic and discussion.

I'd like to make a suggestion for the Mods to consider as it relates to DQ's.

I mentioned DQ in a vote thread and it sent everyone into a tizzy some people even went so far as to beat a poor dead horse over it (humor), some vote threads even have actual DQ's which also sends some people into a tizzy. So it is obvious that there is a divide among the brethren over DQ's. The TD mods have a tough job and I respect them for putting all of their time and hard work into the TD's. Correct me if I'm wrong but the forum mods are here to maintain order and enforce the forum rules which are written in stone and can be fairly and consistently enforced without seeming to favor one person or another because of interpretation.

The TD's has it's own set of rules which are ever evolving sometimes for the better and sometimes not (IMHO) but at each turn we learn from it. The TD mods are responsible to make sure the TD's run smoothly, ensure that all forum rules including the TD rules are adhered to, post vote threads, entry threads as well as delinquent threads. In addition to all that they have to inforce arbitrary special rules enacted by the the person that chose the category who I like to call the TD host. These special rules sometimes even override forum TD rules which seems ridiculous to me and makes it impossible for the TD mods to be consistent with their DQ's and sometimes even seem to be unfair or biased based on the TD hosts "intent" (more on that later). That is unfair to the TD mods and subjects them to a lot of unneeded stress and BS, no other mod has to deal with that sort of flux in the rules they must enforce.

I suggest a compromise where the TD mods continue to enforce the TD rules but any special rules violations be left to the discretion of the TD Host that called the TD and the special rule because they are the only one who knows what the intent was. No more hiding behind the TD mods, its not fair to them. There should also be a supremacy clause where no special rule can override a forum or TD rule. We had one entry DQ'd after it had already won because it violated a special rule even though it conformed to the forum TD rules (you can imagine the tizzy that caused), shouldn't the law of the land prevail in these instances.

I think that compromise would make the TD mod's jobs a lot easier and we'd probably get fewer DQ's and tizzies.

Anybody second that motion?

 

[peeps]

FWIW, at least since I have been a mod for the TDs, I have tried to get clarification on the intent from the TD host prior to issuing any Dilly Bars based on a special rule violation unless it was a clear violation of the regular TD rules or a very specific requirement that was seen as a clear violation of special rules. Anything based on intent has been discussed. And typically, the entrants have understood, realized their omission or error, said :doh: and moved on.

Since September, I counted 6 DQs (not counting Gore's microwave coffee and tin melting "entries") out of hundreds of entries. I would say that is a pretty small percentage and only a couple of those were due to special rules violations. One was not submitted by the deadline, one was fully cooked on the stovetop, and the others didn't follow special rules set out by the TD host (i.e. entry was not plated per the special rule, only one appetizer was cooked despite the TD calling for 2, specified cut of meat was not used, etc).

I'd say that is a pretty low percentage and isn't as frequent as some are thinking.

I'm not counting the beans-spoon shot clusterfark of October 2014. Moose and I did reach out to Bill in that one to discuss the omission of a spoon shot by 75% of the field and Bill, along with Moose and I, didn't want most of the field decimated by his special rule, so he withdrew that requirement. We got tons of flack for that decision, and in restrospect, rightfully so. We should have enforced it fully to be consistent instead of changing the rule at the TD submittal deadline.

I know there have been other past occurrences before I became a mod that many of you reference (maple syrup, finger foods, and salad comes to mind), but since I have been a TD mod, I have tried to be consistent and fair and in keeping with the intent of the TD host for any DQs that have been issued on my watch.

 

[Ron_L]

A couple of comments below...

I'd like to make a suggestion for the Mods to consider as it relates to DQ's.

I mentioned DQ in a vote thread and it sent everyone into a tizzy some people even went so far as to beat a poor dead horse over it (humor), some vote threads even have actual DQ's which also sends some people into a tizzy. So it is obvious that there is a divide among the brethren over DQ's. The TD mods have a tough job and I respect them for putting all of their time and hard work into the TD's. Correct me if I'm wrong but the forum mods are here to maintain order and enforce the forum rules which are written in stone and can be fairly and consistently enforced without seeming to favor one person or another because of interpretation.

Correct. The forum mods enforce the forum rules.

The TD's has it's own set of rules which are ever evolving sometimes for the better and sometimes not (IMHO) but at each turn we learn from it. The TD mods are responsible to make sure the TD's run smoothly, ensure that all forum rules including the TD rules are adhered to, post vote threads, entry threads as well as delinquent threads.

Not quite correct. The TD mods do not enforce the forum rules. That is the role of the forum mods.

In addition to all that they have to inforce arbitrary special rules enacted by the the person that chose the category who I like to call the TD host. These special rules sometimes even override forum TD rules which seems ridiculous to me and makes it impossible for the TD mods to be consistent with their DQ's and sometimes even seem to be unfair or biased based on the TD hosts "intent" (more on that later). That is unfair to the TD mods and subjects them to a lot of unneeded stress and BS, no other mod has to deal with that sort of flux in the rules they must enforce.

I suggest a compromise where the TD mods continue to enforce the TD rules but any special rules violations be left to the discretion of the TD Host that called the TD and the special rule because they are the only one who knows what the intent was. No more hiding behind the TD mods, its not fair to them. There should also be a supremacy clause where no special rule can override a forum or TD rule. We had one entry DQ'd after it had already won because it violated a special rule even though it conformed to the forum TD rules (you can imagine the tizzy that caused), shouldn't the law of the land prevail in these instances.

We tried that, and the TD Host (good term!) refused to enforce their own special rules and the consensus at the time was that the TD mods should be the ones to do it.

I think that compromise would make the TD mod's jobs a lot easier and we'd probably get fewer DQ's and tizzies.

Anybody second that motion?

Maybe enough has changed to make this work.

 

[BBQchef33]

Hey Peeps...

 

[Will work for bbq]

Thanks Peeps, your points are well taken but I made some responses in color below.

FWIW, at least since I have been a mod for the TDs, I have tried to get clarification on the intent from the TD host prior to issuing any Dilly Bars based on a special rule violation unless it was a clear violation of the regular TD rules or a very specific requirement that was seen as a clear violation of special rules. Anything based on intent has been discussed. And typically, the entrants have understood, realized their omission or error, said :doh: and moved on.

Since September, I counted 6 DQs (not counting Gore's microwave coffee and tin melting "entries") out of hundreds of entries. I would say that is a pretty small percentage

Agreed that is a small percentage.

and only a couple of those were due to special rules violations.

Also a small percentage.

One was not submitted by the deadline, one was fully cooked on the stovetop,

TD rules violations are a no brainier and easy to be consistent in their enforcement.

and the others didn't follow special rules set out by the TD host (i.e. entry was not plated per the special rule, only one appetizer was cooked despite the TD calling for 2, specified cut of meat was not used, etc).

I'd say that is a pretty low percentage and isn't as frequent as some are thinking.

Sometimes once is too much (considering specific circumstances).

I'm not counting the beans-spoon shot clusterfark of October 2014. Moose and I did reach out to Bill in that one to discuss the omission of a spoon shot by 75% of the field and Bill, along with Moose and I, didn't want most of the field decimated by his special rule, so he withdrew that requirement. We got tons of flack for that decision, and in restrospect, rightfully so. We should have enforced it fully to be consistent instead of changing the rule at the TD submittal deadline.

Exactly my point. Why should the TD mods take all the flack. Let the host make the call, sure you guys can still discuss and confer amongst yourselves but let the host be the figurehead in the ruling as long as it doesn't conflict with the TD rules.

I know there have been other past occurrences before I became a mod that many of you reference (maple syrup, finger foods, and salad comes to mind), but since I have been a TD mod, I have tried to be consistent and fair and in keeping with the intent of the TD host for any DQs that have been issued on my watch.

 

[Will work for bbq]

Thanks for the responses Ron.

We tried that, and the TD Host (good term!) refused to enforce their own special rules and the consensus at the time was that the TD mods should be the ones to do it.

That has proven to be unfair to the Mod's IMO.

 

[Ron_L]

Thanks for the responses Ron.



That has proven to be unfair to the Mod's IMO.

I don't disagree. But, when we asked the TD Hosts to enforce their own special rules they refused, it fell to the TD mods. And, most of the instances that people cote when complaining about DQs are caused by special rules that are set by a TD host.

So... What's the obvious way to stop that? No special rules! :twisted:

 

[peeps]

So... What's the obvious way to stop that? No special rules! :twisted:

And what fun is that? :boink:

Even simple categories get over-thought. Something like Mexican food....

"Does that mean Tex-Mex, Mex-Mex, southwest-Mex, Yankee-Mex, etc."

 

[Moose]

Thanks Phil,

I'm kinda sorry I posted this thread. Also, I'm kinda not sorry.

Quite a few of the people commenting here go way back with me and I love them like brothers.

We remember a time before Dilly Bars. We remember a time when the voters really did decide.

Chris was big on that. I know he got a lot of flak and it was Chris who did introduce the DQ. He kept it very open till that point and after that things got difficult.

I'll cut to how it goes in 2015. Mods are on a hiding to nothing with with every entrant picking some angle on a rule. Members now just fire questions to the TD mods to see what happens. It's a game. No surprise that the MODS make some stupid decisions as has been well documented by contributors that have been told to back off.

The Mods should not have to put up with that crap in any case. The mods should set up the thread and announce the winners. That's all they should have to do.

Merge the threads. Discussion and Cook. It's more work for the mods to separate. And the divergence only took place because members that are no longer here were far too serious to have some fun.

Blind voting or transparent voting?

Looks like it doesn't really matter. I'm astounded that it doesn't matter! But it doesn't matter. I can take that medicine.

My thoughts.

THIS has got to be a section within the forum where we ENCOURAGE members to have a crack, and put your best foot forward.

It's NOT about DQ's, asking to have an entry DQ'd. Rule validation, or anything else. It's just for the love of BBQ and to see members put up their efforts in the most honest way.

I hope this makes some sense and God Bless you all.

Cheers!

Bill

Bill, thanks for the comments and insight. I haven't had much time of late to chime in, but I will, from the standpoint of a moderator:

The ongoing debate between the camp that wants to go back to things the way they were, i.e., no special rules, no dilly bars, let the voters decide etc is fundamentally at odds with the camp that wants to keep the current structure. I would like to point out that all of these were in place BEFORE I became a moderator of this subforum.

If we were to just go back to the way things were, there would be a backlash from the members who like the current structure, and vice versa, with the ongoing complaining ad nauseum about how having rules and structure is taking all the fun out of the Throwdowns.

This latest debacle in BOTH TD Master's vote threads is what REALLY sucked the fun out of things here, and I don't have much to add to BobBrisket's or Phil's recent comments, because I couldn't agree more.

Whether the TD's are fun or not is entirely up to everyone who participates; looking back a few years ago when all the current rules were already in place, it sure seemed like people were having fun then, so what's changed?

The bottom line is they can continue to be fun, if people stopped taking things so seriously and showed up with the intent the TD's were founded on:

Please think of this subforum, and the Throwdown contests within as a friendly backyard neighborhood BBQ block party with a friendly, themed BBQ contest as part of the festivities.

Each week we will feature a new "Category". To enter the contest, you must cook a dish that is in line with the category, and submit the photo(s) of your dish in that Throwdown category thread.

 

[Wampus]

This


:thumb:

Please think of this subforum, and the Throwdown contests within as a friendly backyard neighborhood BBQ block party with a friendly, themed BBQ contest as part of the festivities.

Each week we will feature a new "Category". To enter the contest, you must cook a dish that is in line with the category, and submit the photo(s) of your dish in that Throwdown category thread.

 

[deguerre]

Wait. Yankee Mex???

 

[Moose]

I don't disagree. But, when we asked the TD Hosts to enforce their own special rules they refused, it fell to the TD mods. And, most of the instances that people cote when complaining about DQs are caused by special rules that are set by a TD host.

So... What's the obvious way to stop that? No special rules! :twisted:

And what fun is that? :boink:

Even simple categories get over-thought. Something like Mexican food....

"Does that mean Tex-Mex, Mex-Mex, southwest-Mex, Yankee-Mex, etc."

peeps and I are in full agreement; special rules, provided they are simple and easy to follow can make a TD more interesting. Plus, last year I clarified how we would enforce them as well as deal with changes requested by the "host":

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=198564

 

[peeps]

Wait. Yankee Mex???

You know...the really bad Mexican you you get sometimes when you have that Mexican food craving but are in some random town up north where their idea of Mexican food is WAY different than any other Mexican food you have ever had? Like Wolf brand chili is their idea of chile con carne...

 

[Ron_L]

peeps and I are in full agreement; special rules, provided they are simple and easy to follow can make a TD more interesting. Plus, last year I clarified how we would enforce them as well as deal with changes requested by the "host":

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=198564

I was kiddng.

 

[Moose]

I was kiddng.

 

[sam3]

Wait. Yankee Mex???

We add Lobstah to everything.