Table of Death

[big matt]

:doh: You obviously don't know Tuffy.

And if I remember right it was one of the first things he said..we got lucky

 

[dr pearl]

Your exactly right..been on both ends this year more than once..that's the problem with this thread..lots of people chiming in that have never even won a contest..for those of us that cook comps on a regular basis know what really needs to happen to win it..cook your best and hope you don't hit "that table".

Must feel great to be such an elitist. I forgot, those of us that compete a few times a year don't count.

 

[Podge]

It only takes 2 judges to make a bad table.

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

Must feel great to be such an elitist. I forgot, those of us that compete a few times a year don't count.

He wasn't being elitist...he was responding to:

"Anyone who has won more than a few GCs can point to contests they lost because of one table, or contests they won that were a gift."

The teams that only compete a few times a year are the bread and butter of KCBS. Most teams cook less than 5 contests a year.

What I took from the comment is that many of the people against the TOD or that don't agree it is a problem, are newer additions to the sport, with less experience, and no history in their memory of how luck gave them a gc or how it was missed bc of a bad table.

Experience = knowledge...

You and teams like yours are the future of BBQ.

 

[big matt]

Must feel great to be such an elitist. I forgot, those of us that compete a few times a year don't count.

Where did I ever state that teams that don't cook more than a few don't count?..actually those teams make up the better part of competitions..what I'm pointing out is your lack of experience and misunderstanding of the point of this thread..have you actually lost a GC because of a table of death or vise versa?..my guess from from your responses would be no.

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

what I'm pointing out is your lack of experience and misunderstanding of the point of this thread..have you actually lost a GC because of a table of death or vise versa?..my guess from from your responses would be no.

On the other hand...that was elitist ;-)

 

[big matt]

On the other hand...that was elitist ;-)

Ok maybe just a bit..the point I was trying to make is that unless you have been directly affected by a TOD you might just not understand the feeling you get when you see you hit one..it's worked both ways for us and I'd be a fool to think luck wasn't a part of winning contests..I just feel like this one factor can be changed and fixed.

 

[Podge]

Ok maybe just a bit..the point I was trying to make is that unless you have been directly affected by a TOD you might just not understand the feeling you get when you see you hit one..it's worked both ways for us and I'd be a fool to think luck wasn't a part of winning contests..I just feel like this one factor can be changed and fixed.

I fit into the category of not cooking many contests per year.. 4 to 6.. just happened I cooked 8 this year.. 59 contests total. Until recently, I've not really noticed a TOD. When one is present, you'll know it!.. I've seen just not a TOD but an evil Table of Total Eternal Damnation in Hendersonville, Tn. this year!

 

[big matt]

I fit into the category of not cooking many contests per year.. 4 to 6.. just happened I cooked 8 this year.. 59 contests total. Until recently, I've not really noticed a TOD. When one is present, you'll know it!.. I've seen just not a TOD but an evil Table of Total Eternal Damnation in Hendersonville, Tn. this year!

Hahaha like the old saying goes..some pople get it some don't..Chad you deffinetly get it

 

[Balls Casten]

Hahaha like the old saying goes..some pople get it some don't..Chad you deffinetly get it

Its not that people dont "get it". Its that they dont agree with the solutions that have been presented or the severity of the problem.

 

[Scottie]

All it takes is to be in that position of losing a GC because of a bad table anf then you would get it...Then again. I never give back trophies when I am on a favorable table....

 

[big matt]

Doug and Scottie I get both of your points..Doug maybe it's not a severe as it's being made out to be..but the fact remains it does happen and probably always has but does that mean we should just keep doing the same thing when we have score sheets proving it..guys we all know BBQ is subjective and not everyone has the same taste so there will always be variance in scores and I get that..I just think this element can be taken out of it.

 

[Kit R]

All it takes is to be in that position of losing a GC because of a bad table anf then you would get it...Then again. I never give back trophies when I am on a favorable table....

I'd have to give back the chainsaw carved Chalice of Victory from that comp we did together in 2012 if we had to give back trophies after landing on favorable tables. Much butt hurting was had that day by the not so happy few. But we don't and I didn't.

 

[dr pearl]

Its not that people dont "get it". Its that they dont agree with the solutions that have been presented or the severity of the problem.

Of course luck is involved. I never said it doesn't play a factor. Heck, luck is involved everyday I wake up and walk out the door. Of course math is involved. I know that too, but I also know math can give false results if not given the correct input. Yes, it sucks when a bad table or bad judge(s) ruins your day of glory. We are all very good at what we do, that is why we are able to compete. Some do it for fun with aspirations to become great, or at least get better and maybe hear our names. Some of you are already at the top of your game and I sincerely congratulate all of you on your successes and continued success.

 

[JD McGee]

All it takes is to be in that position of losing a GC because of a bad table anf then you would get it...Then again. I never give back trophies when I am on a favorable table....

Lol...

The way I see it is this...there are two things I can control...how the meat looks (appearance)...and how it is cooked (texture). The flavor thing (taste) is up to six different sets of tastebuds per table per meat. We take a "do not offend any judge" approach with our bbq...that being a balance of smoke, sweet, and heat. The ONLY thing that really ticks me off is an unbalanced table of judges as far as their experience level is concerned. If the head judge is not assigning tables for balance...I have a problem with that. If the tables are balanced and one gives high...or low scores...oh well...not a whole lot I can bitch about. Well...I can...but it wouldn't do any good...that's just competition bbq. Moving along now...:becky:

 

[North Is Up]

In the latest Board meeting (11/11/2013) posted on the KCBS site, a motion was made by Candy Weaver, "I move that KCBS develop a score sheet for judges so they can evaluate their scores."

I'm a 1st year judge and I know that there's room to improve. This would be a helpful tool. It would be valuable to me to take notes and compare it to the sheet at the end of the day. The notes would be there to jog my memory. Also, bring back comment cards.

I do remember a time this year that I had a very tasty destined-to-be a 9-9-9 sample of chicken, but while munching on it, I almost choked on the cut up bone and gristle that was left behind. It totally went against the appearance and flavor profile of 9s by leaving these in there and maybe the cook was just not careful about this one particular sample. There were at least four cut up bony/gristly pieces in there. The problem is that I had no way of letting the team know about it to support my low score for texture. I’m sure it had the team wondering what was wrong with me. Everything was excellent except for the that, but that was a biggie to me.

Also, considering flavor, I do not care if the seasoning is hot, mild, rich, salty, Asian flavored or whatever. Is it good? Does it make sense or is it a hodge-podge of mismatched flavors? I have a very open mind about BBQ and I welcome new flavors whatever the base seasoning is. The score sheet will let me know if I'm too liberal and need to reign in my taste buds. I don't think so. I like the old standbys and I like originality. I treat each entry as an individual art form that a team worked hard to produce. Crazy, and maybe I'm off base. Let me see where I stand.

 

[ModelMaker]

In the latest Board meeting (11/11/2013) posted on the KCBS site, a motion was made by Candy Weaver, "I move that KCBS develop a score sheet for judges so they can evaluate their scores."

I'm a 1st year judge and I know that there's room to improve. This would be a helpful tool. It would be valuable to me to take notes and compare it to the sheet at the end of the day. The notes would be there to jog my memory. Also, bring back comment cards.

I do remember a time this year that I had a very tasty destined-to-be a 9-9-9 sample of chicken, but while munching on it, I almost choked on the cut up bone and gristle that was left behind. It totally went against the appearance and flavor profile of 9s by leaving these in there and maybe the cook was just not careful about this one particular sample. There were at least four cut up bony/gristly pieces in there. The problem is that I had no way of letting the team know about it to support my low score for texture. I’m sure it had the team wondering what was wrong with me. Everything was excellent except for the that, but that was a biggie to me.

Also, considering flavor, I do not care if the seasoning is hot, mild, rich, salty, Asian flavored or whatever. Is it good? Does it make sense or is it a hodge-podge of mismatched flavors? I have a very open mind about BBQ and I welcome new flavors whatever the base seasoning is. The score sheet will let me know if I'm too liberal and need to reign in my taste buds. I don't think so. I like the old standbys and I like originality. I treat each entry as an individual art form that a team worked hard to produce. Crazy, and maybe I'm off base. Let me see where I stand.

My biggest fear of judges having table score sheets is the comparison between judges. Do we want all judges to be alike in every aspect?
Isn't comparison of entries and thus scoring comparison still a bad idea?
Should you "reign your taste buds" to match the majority of the table?
I say absolutley not.
KCBS's goal should be properly trained judges that judge only whats in the box.
Educated individualism is a good thing (Martha Stewart mod)
Ed

 

[Scottie]

Part of BBQ is hitting the table. You do have to have good food, but there is also a ton of luck involved. Anyone who says that they weren't lucky winning a GC or category can't say they were lucky. Dies it mean they had the best? No. They had the best for that table. It sucks, but I like it better than just using 9, 8, 7 in scoring .

The Great Darren 'Clone' Warth told me early in my career some words of wisdom. He was only a badass then, now he is supreme being with Tuffy... But Clone said something that I will never forget. To be a champion, you have to learn to lose first.

 

[bbqczar]

And the late,great Brent Walton of QN4U fame told me something similar a few years back.he said,"To be a winner you have to LEARN from losing",still miss Brent,what a great guy he was.

 

[bbq.tom]

My biggest fear of judges having table score sheets is the comparison between judges. Do we want all judges to be alike in every aspect?
Isn't comparison of entries and thus scoring comparison still a bad idea?
Should you "reign your taste buds" to match the majority of the table?
I say absolutley not.
KCBS's goal should be properly trained judges that judge only whats in the box.
Educated individualism is a good thing (Martha Stewart mod)
Ed

I believe that you are missing the point here Ed, NOT trying to make all judges alike in every aspect, but getting them all in the same ballpark would be nice.

If Taste was the only score that had significant variance it probably wouldn't be that much of an issue, but 9s and 6s in Appearance on the same entry or on Tenderness of the same brisket is out of line.

Personally, I want to see how my scores compare with other judges, as I truly believe we can all learn from each other. Apparently you do as well, as you post Appearance scores on BBQCritic.com.