Table of Death

[Podge]

That is not a bad idea. Provide the judges with their scores relative to their table. Show them their avg score compared to their table. Maybe show them the avg score of judges at that contest.

I agree, but since it's after the fact, it ain't going to hurt for a judge to know who they judged.

 

[Brew-B-Q]

Then we'll have an Entries of Death discussion among judges that are upset that they didn't get food from any of the top teams at a contest. There will be mention of a conspiracy to direct the so-called top teams' food to others tables because of tie-ins with the organizer.

 

[carlyle]

Letting a judge know who they judge is a problem, even after the judging is over.
At least a couple of problems that I can think of right off the bat.
Brew B Q is on the right track- Entry of Death, yeah, I like that - think I judged one of those at the Royal this year. Talk about bad brisket!
Also if a sharp judge is able to tie a taste together with a name and they encounter that taste again at another contest, it can lead the judge to think he or she may know whose entry it is and effect the judges score either up or down. Don't want that either.

 

[Yellow Card BBQ]

What I can't understand about this entire thread is why there is so many people who are against doing anything with all of this new data that we have access to. It can't really be that hard to average out and place 6 judges on specified tables without hurting their feelings. I don't care that there are statistical anomalies and outliers and all that. An average is an average, and it will only improve and become more precise over time. If a judge has only scored 2 contests with low scores, that means on average they're going to score low. So put them on a table with a judge who scores high on average. It can only help with the TOD and the TOL.

I think you kind of answered it yourself. I'm not against doing something with the new data. I'm against doing something with the new data now, just because there isn't enough of it. Once you have enough judges with say, 5 contests in the database, then you can start using that data to balance out tables. But I wouldn't want to start making kneejerk reactions and sorting judges based on 1 or 2 competitions.

 

[Meat Man]

It's the KCBS reps job to put together the tables. Difficult to do at any contest, let alone one with 85 teams. One thought might be to have KCBS reps that work in certain regions, who might be more familiar with the majority of the judging pool work these contest.

 

[bbq.tom]

It's the KCBS reps job to put together the tables. Difficult to do at any contest, let alone one with 85 teams. One thought might be to have KCBS reps that work in certain regions, who might be more familiar with the majority of the judging pool work these contest.

If the organizers could confirm judges sooner, the REPs would have more time to find out who is coming and could do some pre-placement of judges at tables. Unfortunately, it is RARE for the REPs to have a clue on who will be there until they get there, and at that point the REPs have their hands full with other matters.

 

[McEvoy AZ]

Maybe since the table captain should be the most experienced judge at a given table, after the scores have been given he should shuffle the scores and read back the scores given by all the judges at the table. I would think this would at least help train the judges how to score as it would force conversation on how to score correctly. Or the table could give a consensus score that would not count but would be more guidance to the team. The consensus score would be after the individual scores have been turned in based on the conversation and agreed between judges at a given table. Anything that would help a low scoring or a high scoring judge to understand how to judge. My bet is that TOD judges didn't even realize they scored lower then maybe they should have. I think forcing conversation between the judges is the key to having consistent trained judges.

 

[bignburlyman]

Maybe since the table captain should be the most experienced judge at a given table, after the scores have been given he should shuffle the scores and read back the scores given by all the judges at the table. I would think this would at least help train the judges how to score as it would force conversation on how to score correctly. Or the table could give a consensus score that would not count but would be more guidance to the team. The consensus score would be after the individual scores have been turned in based on the conversation and agreed between judges at a given table. Anything that would help a low scoring or a high scoring judge to understand how to judge. My bet is that TOD judges didn't even realize they scored lower then maybe they should have. I think forcing conversation between the judges is the key to having consistent trained judges.

In my experience a lot of the time the table captain is just a volunteer who is helping at the contest. At the last contest I judged a 1st time CBJ volunteered to table captain. He did a fine job captaining, I don't know about his judging, lol.

 

[dr pearl]

If comment cards were brought back and made MANDATORY, this would at least make the judge accountable with details regarding your food. Still might not help with the TOD, but then again, maybe the food at your table just sucked, including your entry. I am a fairly new cook who struggled with my first competitions. I almost bailed on competing, thinking the judging was rigged somehow. I worked hard and my scores this year improved drastically, not because I finally got on a "GOOD" table, but because my food improved, my techniques improved, my attention to detail improved, my program improved. Of course it's bothersome when you see 6's or 7's without knowing the why. Comment cards justifying the score would at least give me some idea as to what went wrong, instead of coming up with calculations, formulas, excuses and the such to determine Death Tables or Angel Tables. That's is just bad sportsmanship. We all play by the same rules. Cook good food consistently and your scores will show it as such. You will not win them all and there will be bad days. To me, this is just ruining it all. Ask Tuffy how he managed to win The Royal AND The Jack this year. He won't tell you he got lucky and was at the GOOD ANGEL table.

 

[peterz]

If comment cards were brought back and made MANDATORY, this would at least make the judge accountable with details regarding your food. Still might not help with the TOD, but then again, maybe the food at your table just sucked, including your entry. I am a fairly new cook who struggled with my first competitions. I almost bailed on competing, thinking the judging was rigged somehow. I worked hard and my scores this year improved drastically, not because I finally got on a "GOOD" table, but because my food improved, my techniques improved, my attention to detail improved, my program improved. Of course it's bothersome when you see 6's or 7's without knowing the why. Comment cards justifying the score would at least give me some idea as to what went wrong, instead of coming up with calculations, formulas, excuses and the such to determine Death Tables or Angel Tables. That's is just bad sportsmanship. We all play by the same rules. Cook good food consistently and your scores will show it as such. You will not win them all and there will be bad days. To me, this is just ruining it all. Ask Tuffy how he managed to win The Royal AND The Jack this year. He won't tell you he got lucky and was at the GOOD ANGEL table.

And there you have it !!!!:clap2:

 

[bbqczar]

If comment cards were brought back and made MANDATORY, this would at least make the judge accountable with details regarding your food. Still might not help with the TOD, but then again, maybe the food at your table just sucked, including your entry. I am a fairly new cook who struggled with my first competitions. I almost bailed on competing, thinking the judging was rigged somehow. I worked hard and my scores this year improved drastically, not because I finally got on a "GOOD" table, but because my food improved, my techniques improved, my attention to detail improved, my program improved. Of course it's bothersome when you see 6's or 7's without knowing the why. Comment cards justifying the score would at least give me some idea as to what went wrong, instead of coming up with calculations, formulas, excuses and the such to determine Death Tables or Angel Tables. That's is just bad sportsmanship. We all play by the same rules. Cook good food consistently and your scores will show it as such. You will not win them all and there will be bad days. To me, this is just ruining it all. Ask Tuffy how he managed to win The Royal AND The Jack this year. He won't tell you he got lucky and was at the GOOD ANGEL table.

EXACTLY! And like I said,pack up,and move on to the next contest ! Things sure were easier and more fun 8 years ago when we started,it gets less and less about BBQ and fun every year.

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

If comment cards were brought back and made MANDATORY, this would at least make the judge accountable with details regarding your food. Still might not help with the TOD, but then again, maybe the food at your table just sucked, including your entry. I am a fairly new cook who struggled with my first competitions. I almost bailed on competing, thinking the judging was rigged somehow. I worked hard and my scores this year improved drastically, not because I finally got on a "GOOD" table, but because my food improved, my techniques improved, my attention to detail improved, my program improved. Of course it's bothersome when you see 6's or 7's without knowing the why. Comment cards justifying the score would at least give me some idea as to what went wrong, instead of coming up with calculations, formulas, excuses and the such to determine Death Tables or Angel Tables. That's is just bad sportsmanship. We all play by the same rules. Cook good food consistently and your scores will show it as such. You will not win them all and there will be bad days. To me, this is just ruining it all. Ask Tuffy how he managed to win The Royal AND The Jack this year. He won't tell you he got lucky and was at the GOOD ANGEL table.

It's not bad sportsmanship to want tables balanced...it's logic.

Comment cards are great, but you can't force judges to write exactly what is wrong.

Many will come up with stock answers to write down.

"Entry salty", "bland", "flavor imbalanced"
We have all seen the generic cards, and we try to figure out what they mean...


You put to much faith into humanity. The only truth in this world is mathematics...they do not lie.

Math is in everything, it is in all of your recipes...they can be broken down into equations.
Math is in your cook times, they are formulas.

Mathematics proves there are tables of death, and tables of angels.
Mathematics is the only way to fix those.

I love comment cards and believe they need to be mandatory...but comment cards, in the way used above are a bandaid on a gunshot wound...you accomplish nothing but covering the wound as the underlying problem persists

 

[Podge]

I remember LPQ back in 2007. It was the highest payout of a contest at the time. We had to turn in Turkey as the first category. Then, we had an hour until the big 4 started. When the turkey was turned in, the reps then had an opportunity to get rid of the inconsistent judges/tables.

 

[big matt]

EXACTLY! And like I said,pack up,and move on to the next contest ! Things sure were easier and more fun 8 years ago when we started,it gets less and less about BBQ and fun every year.

This is what's wrong with America not just BBQ..too many people throwing their hands up and say oh we'll move on to the next one..how about fixing the problem staring us in the face..nah just move on it's easier.

 

[Bubba]

If comment cards were brought back and made MANDATORY, this would at least make the judge accountable with details regarding your food. Still might not help with the TOD, but then again, maybe the food at your table just sucked, including your entry. I am a fairly new cook who struggled with my first competitions. I almost bailed on competing, thinking the judging was rigged somehow. I worked hard and my scores this year improved drastically, not because I finally got on a "GOOD" table, but because my food improved, my techniques improved, my attention to detail improved, my program improved. Of course it's bothersome when you see 6's or 7's without knowing the why. Comment cards justifying the score would at least give me some idea as to what went wrong, instead of coming up with calculations, formulas, excuses and the such to determine Death Tables or Angel Tables. That's is just bad sportsmanship. We all play by the same rules. Cook good food consistently and your scores will show it as such. You will not win them all and there will be bad days. To me, this is just ruining it all. Ask Tuffy how he managed to win The Royal AND The Jack this year. He won't tell you he got lucky and was at the GOOD ANGEL table.

Dude I won the Royal and if you don't think LUCK was a factor in it I don't know what to tell you. The best food does not win at contests if any body thinks it does your sadly mistaken

 

[dr pearl]

OK. So just to get this straight. It's luck when you win and math when you don't. Got it.

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

OK. So just to get this straight. It's luck when you win and math when you don't. Got it.

Everyone that competes knows that luck is part of this sport. The 2 decades of comp BBQ I have under my belt has taught me many things.

Math is everything.
That perfect recipe is a balanced equation.
That perfect judging table is a balanced equation

But bad luck (variables you can't control) TOD, TOA, Weather, too much booze, Equipment malfunctions, etc. Will effect the balanced outcome of your contest entry.

When you change the variables (process) of your recipe it becomes an unbalanced equation.
That horrible judging table is an unbalanced equation, and so is a high scoring table.

That being said, not every contest has TOD and TOA. They are statistical outliers and don't occur at every contest...but the fact they do occur is a correction that can be made. This eliminates a bit of (luck...aka a variable) from the equation, bringing it closer to balance (aka fair across the board)

You said you are new to the game...you will learn with time just how big a role luck currently plays in Comp BBQ.

 

[Dan - 3eyzbbq]

Ask Tuffy how he managed to win The Royal AND The Jack this year. He won't tell you he got lucky and was at the GOOD ANGEL table.

:doh: You obviously don't know Tuffy.

 

[Alexa RnQ]

Anyone who has won more than a few GCs can point to contests they lost because of one table, or contests they won that were a gift.

 

[big matt]

Anyone who has won more than a few GCs can point to contests they lost because of one table, or contests they won that were a gift.

Your exactly right..been on both ends this year more than once..that's the problem with this thread..lots of people chiming in that have never even won a contest..for those of us that cook comps on a regular basis know what really needs to happen to win it..cook your best and hope you don't hit "that table".