KCBS - looking at allowing gas/ LP

[The_Kapn]

Can someone explain to me what is so difficult about maintaining a temp with a stick burner?
Presented by some as a necessary skill.

I did it for a long time and if I can do it, anyone can. :-D
Not rocket science.

TIM

 

[Red Valley BBQ]

I understand your point but if you look more broadly there are many potential incremental revenue increases if this were to be allowed. By default, more people competing and in attendance, equals more sponsorship opportunities...

How would having more teams compete have any potential to increase revenues for the KCBS? Outside of requiring teams to become members. I'm trying to see your point of view, but until it's explained to me better, I just don't see it.

If the KCBS wants to increase revenues, they should be focusing on finding reasons to get the person that likes to barbecue in his backyard to become a member. As of right now, I don't see any reason for a person to become a member of KCBS other than if they want to be a judge. It would seem to me that the number of backyard cooks that have no interest in competing would far out number the number of teams that would potentially compete if they could use propane. Just about everyone has a grill or smoker of some sort in thier backyard.

 

[MilitantSquatter]

How would having more teams compete have any potential to increase revenues for the KCBS? Outside of requiring teams to become members. I'm trying to see your point of view, but until it's explained to me better, I just don't see it.


If the KCBS wants to increase revenues, they should be focusing on finding reasons to get the person that likes to barbecue in his backyard to become a member. As of right now, I don't see any reason for a person to become a member of KCBS other than if they want to be a judge. It would seem to me that the number of backyard cooks that have no interest in competing would far out number the number of teams that would potentially compete if they could use propane. Just about everyone has a grill or smoker of some sort in thier backyard.

Increased sponsorships...

Great American BBQ Tour is an example

http://www.kcbs.us/tour.php

or the Sam's Club contests

http://www.kcbs.us/sams-club-series.php

Just a few years ago, KCBS had none of this.. now while it's still small but growing as more companies see the value of spending their advertising $ on a common base of end users or potential new target demographic.. It doesn't just need to be BBQ products.. but adjacent products used by BBQ enthusiasts.

The more end users (members, at contest etc.. the more $$)

 

[txschutte]

Can someone explain to me what is so difficult about maintaining a temp with a stick burner?
Presented by some as a necessary skill.

I did it for a long time and if I can do it, anyone can. :-D
Not rocket science.

TIM

Tim has a great point. Propane does not mean automatic. Neither does electric. How many comps have we been to that the electric was unreliable or even non-existent?

I would accept the challenge of more competitors in the sport. More teams equals more money. More money means the bigger challenge. I'll put my drums and WSMs against the finest of propane burners any day.

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

Here are my safety concerns with propane. We all burn ourselves now and again with charcoal and wood, but we don't take people with us.

We have all seen an out of control grease fire in a pit. I think we also have all seen the token cooking crew that was too inebriated to put it out. Or they are the "B" team and are there to, and I quote - "just watch the temp". Now add in a 20 lb hand grenade of a propane tank, and you have your first explosion related death at a BBQ competition.

Now imagine the 5 beer in, 22 year old overnight grill watcher at 3:17am as they move a pressurized propane tank nearer to the pit in order to stretch out in front of the nice warm smoker. Somehow they have caused the fire to blink out and have now created a ticking bomb. At that time there actually is security watching to make sure this is not happening. The guard comes over and asks him to move the tank away from the smoker, crisis averted... He lays back down lights a cigarette and looks over at the temp...its plummeting, he checks everything he can, freaks out and opens the door to the smoker. Boom. Lets not forget he is in a spot that is 20x20 with 5 teams around him. 1 death and 4 injuries, along with the contest being closed down for an investigation...

I know it is an overexagerated scenario, but it actually could happen.

That's what scares me about rookie teams and propane.

On another topic:

The only answer that I see to this gas vs. electric debate that will keep people happy and not cause anger and fights amongst the membership will be to divide contests into divisions.

You have:
a stock division (wood and charcoal only, no technology) for the purists
a modified division (wood, pellet, charcoal, gas, electric, with gurus and other gadgets)

but this will never happen.

I know I have to accept change, and eventually electric and gas will be allowed, but I'm going down fightin'

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

Tim has a great point. Propane does not mean automatic. Neither does electric. How many comps have we been to that the electric was unreliable or even non-existent?

I would accept the challenge of more competitors in the sport. More teams equals more money. More money means the bigger challenge. I'll put my drums and WSMs against the finest of propane burners any day.

Then all those electric teams are going to ask for a vote on generators...because its not fair that "my power source can be unreliable or non-existent at a contest", and then you can get no sleep b/c the guys next to you are running a gennie all night.

 

[txschutte]

Then all those electric teams are going to ask for a vote on generators...because its not fair that "my power source can be unreliable or non-existent at a contest", and then you can get no sleep b/c the guys next to you are running a gennie all night.

Strict enforcement of quiet times should be enforced, too. A law already on the books.

 

[BBQ Bandit]

Would think the consequences may outweigh their options.

Fuel division? Betty Crocker division? A boil-free zone?
Place the propane in the (unsanctioned) backyard division... in a separate area?

If it does come to be... who will certify the safety inspections?
Might as well unbolt the home gas range and propane stove and bring that too.

 

[Alexa RnQ]

If it does come to be... who will certify the safety inspections?

And who will put their nuts on the line for liability? Because that first lawsuit will undoubtedly name the organizer, the owner of the venue, KCBS... there'll be splatter.
It's never a problem until the first "incident".

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

Place the propane in the (unsanctioned) backyard division... in a separate area?.

That actually is a great idea. It would allow you to have backyard teams test the competition waters with their existing equipment. They then could determine if this sport is right for them and if they want to blow the money for the allowed equipment.

This drums up interest in the sport, without changing the entire rule set.

It gets my vote

 

[Red Valley BBQ]

Increased sponsorships...

Great American BBQ Tour is an example

http://www.kcbs.us/tour.php

or the Sam's Club contests

http://www.kcbs.us/sams-club-series.php

Just a few years ago, KCBS had none of this.. now while it's still small but growing as more companies see the value of spending their advertising $ on a common base of end users or potential new target demographic.. It doesn't just need to be BBQ products.. but adjacent products used by BBQ enthusiasts.

The more end users (members, at contest etc.. the more $$)

Thanks, I see where you are coming from now. :thumb:

I think the KCBS can still achieve this without allowing the use of propane.

Since 2008, the KCBS has seen a yearly increase in the number of teams competing in sanctioned events without changing the rules and allowing propane:

2008 - 4344 teams
2009 - 4360 teams
2010 - 5204 teams

This seems to be the product of better marketing by the KCBS and rising public awareness due to shows like TLC's BBQ Pitmasters. By focusing on the almost infinite potential membership base that is the everyday homeowner, which I think everyone will agree is far greater in numbers than potential "propane teams," sponsors can get thier products and/or services out to more customers.

Having taken part in the 2011 Sam's Club Championships, it's my opinion that Sam's benefited more from John Q Public at these events than they did from the teams themselves. Sam's was able to reach out to hundreds of potential members from the public. There were only 30 teams at each location (Bentonville being the exception) which I would guess that most of those teams already had one or more members belonging to Sam's. It's my guess that for thier advertising dollar, Sam's saw more return on investment from the public than they did from the teams at each event.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against cooking with propane. To each their own, hell, I used to use it myself. But I don't think changing rules that have been in place for 25 years is the right way for the KCBS to attract potential sponsors. It would seem to me that since the KCBS is a non-profit organization, changing the rules to help another company(s) make money would not be a good idea.

 

[The_Kapn]

Here are my safety concerns with propane. We all burn ourselves now and again with charcoal and wood, but we don't take people with us.

We have all seen an out of control grease fire in a pit. I think we also have all seen the token cooking crew that was too inebriated to put it out. Or they are the "B" team and are there to, and I quote - "just watch the temp". Now add in a 20 lb hand grenade of a propane tank, and you have your first explosion related death at a BBQ competition.

Now imagine the 5 beer in, 22 year old overnight grill watcher at 3:17am as they move a pressurized propane tank nearer to the pit in order to stretch out in front of the nice warm smoker. Somehow they have caused the fire to blink out and have now created a ticking bomb. At that time there actually is security watching to make sure this is not happening. The guard comes over and asks him to move the tank away from the smoker, crisis averted... He lays back down lights a cigarette and looks over at the temp...its plummeting, he checks everything he can, freaks out and opens the door to the smoker. Boom. Lets not forget he is in a spot that is 20x20 with 5 teams around him. 1 death and 4 injuries, along with the contest being closed down for an investigation...

I know it is an overexagerated scenario, but it actually could happen.

That's what scares me about rookie teams and propane.

On another topic:

The only answer that I see to this gas vs. electric debate that will keep people happy and not cause anger and fights amongst the membership will be to divide contests into divisions.

You have:
a stock division (wood and charcoal only, no technology) for the purists
a modified division (wood, pellet, charcoal, gas, electric, with gurus and other gadgets)

but this will never happen.

I know I have to accept change, and eventually electric and gas will be allowed, but I'm going down fightin'

That actually is a great idea. It would allow you to have backyard teams test the competition waters with their existing equipment. They then could determine if this sport is right for them and if they want to blow the money for the allowed equipment.

This drums up interest in the sport, without changing the entire rule set.

It gets my vote

I am totally confused now.
You raise safety issues and go into great detail about them.
Then. it is OK as long as it is in the BackYard area.

Help me understand--OK?

TIM

 

[BBQ Bandit]

Reminds me of art imitating life... or visa versa

Hank of the hill.... "King of the Charcoal"
King of the Charcoal - YouTube

 

[Fat Freddy]

Here are my safety concerns with propane. We all burn ourselves now and again with charcoal and wood, but we don't take people with us.

We have all seen an out of control grease fire in a pit. I think we also have all seen the token cooking crew that was too inebriated to put it out. Or they are the "B" team and are there to, and I quote - "just watch the temp". Now add in a 20 lb hand grenade of a propane tank, and you have your first explosion related death at a BBQ competition.

Now imagine the 5 beer in, 22 year old overnight grill watcher at 3:17am as they move a pressurized propane tank nearer to the pit in order to stretch out in front of the nice warm smoker. Somehow they have caused the fire to blink out and have now created a ticking bomb. At that time there actually is security watching to make sure this is not happening. The guard comes over and asks him to move the tank away from the smoker, crisis averted... He lays back down lights a cigarette and looks over at the temp...its plummeting, he checks everything he can, freaks out and opens the door to the smoker. Boom. Lets not forget he is in a spot that is 20x20 with 5 teams around him. 1 death and 4 injuries, along with the contest being closed down for an investigation...

I know it is an overexagerated scenario, but it actually could happen.

That's what scares me about rookie teams and propane.

On another topic:

The only answer that I see to this gas vs. electric debate that will keep people happy and not cause anger and fights amongst the membership will be to divide contests into divisions.

You have:
a stock division (wood and charcoal only, no technology) for the purists
a modified division (wood, pellet, charcoal, gas, electric, with gurus and other gadgets)

but this will never happen.

I know I have to accept change, and eventually electric and gas will be allowed, but I'm going down fightin'

Originally I didnt really care if someone used wood,charcoal,pellets,gas,crock pot or microwave My goal is to make the best tasting Q.

However after reading your argument what you say makes alot of sense that I didnt think about in dangers of gas. I guess i sure wouldnt want to be in the space next to that person with a gas cooker.

 

[kihrer]

There may be a million plus gassers out there but even if KCBS did open it up to them, how many are anything more than occasional backyard grillers? Does it really grow the sport or KCBS membership or does it just offer those who are already competing a new option? I personally hope it doesn't happen. But, then again, to me managing the fire is a big reason I enjoy cooking. Even if KCBS makes the change, I will not.

 

[Sledneck]

I would love to bring my gas grill to a contest but it scares me . The last time I moved it I ruptured my Achilles tendon:icon_blush:

 

[Smokin' Hicks]

This sport used to be about traditions. I'm a traditionalist. Out of respect, you didn't put your contest, no matter how big, on the same weekend as another contest in your area. You cooked with wood or charcoal only. You had people that actually cooked and judged in contests running the show, not polititians.

Real BBQ is not made with gas or electric. People can argue this fact up and down but my mind will never be changed. I like that KCBS and MBN have stuck with tradition and kept only wood and charcoal burners.

This sport used to be about skill, it is now about toys. I cook on an offset stickburner without a guru. Yes that is my choice, but that in my opinion is how you cook BBQ.

When a guy comes in with a smoker with an electric thermostat, feeder hoppers, humidifiers, running on propane that can maintain a perfect 217.74 degree temperature for 13 hours...are you honestly going to claim its "the cook not the cooker" You have taken the skill out of the sport and reduced an American Tradition to a joke. We have rules for a reason, and if they want to open this up for anybody with a gas grill then the motivation is not to drum up interest...its money. They see $$$ signs, more people, more cash, more power. If they keep going in this direction KCBS will self distruct.

But what the heck do I know, I've only been doing this 19 years.

PREACH THE TRUTH BROTHER.....there is no way i could of said it better if i tried

 

[carlyle]

Great conversation - just what I was hoping for..

New board members, you listening?

In the rules meeting one of the first things brought up was safety. The fire police would have to inspect - like they do at the Royal.

That still does not cover the middle of the night fatigue and alcohol induced mistakes.

I appreciate everyone's comments.

 

[Rub]

I'm all for a wide open contest including all heat sources. It already happens at the Best of the Best Invitational in GA. Great contest. I can see where basic safety standards would need to be in place though.

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

I am totally confused now.
You raise safety issues and go into great detail about them.
Then. it is OK as long as it is in the BackYard area.

Help me understand--OK?

TIM

Its a compromise.

I do not like gas, I fear it actually, since I have had a cooker explode next to me...
I was lucky and it just flashed, not frying anything but my hair.

But if you are going to have gas at a competition, you put it in 1 small area (backyard) that can be closely monitored.
As most of the backyard contests are not overnight cooks (ribs and chicken, not brisket and pork) you don't have to worry about long cook times.
It allows the use of people's existing equipment at their home (most likely a propane grill) that it not as dangerous as a larger rig.
You then add security that is constantly patroling for safety, and you have a relatively safe, controlled envoirnment.

This was a debate on allowing electric and gas into KCBS to increase public interest. This was a compromise I could live with as it does not allow gas and electric into the regular KCBS catagories, but does allow these methods into a backyard division that is completely seperate. This could increase public interest without changing the existing rule set.