kcbs bod meeting

[BritToby]

Hi Jorge, thanks for the feedback. As mentioned before I didnt correct the post i made previously on this forum stating that our rules are identical which in hindsight I "could" have done. The whole situation is a real shame, we have used our rules for 3 years in 9 competitions. They are different enough without making amendments but really need to know whether KCBS are basing their thought process on hearsay, old rules, or the rules that we have actually used over the last 3 years.

For starters we score 1 - 10 and dont drop any scores. We dont number boxes when they are given to teams they are marked for the first time when they are handed in, our desserts and sauces have to be made onsite, pork can be seperated to name but a few.

The thing i find most frustrating is that I have always said publicly that our rules are similar, including to Carolyn when i was introduced to her at the American Royal in 2009 and numerous others over the years, this isnt new and has not been an issue until I made the decision to move into Europe.

Either way we will have to see what their thought process is and where this leads.

 

[timzcardz]

I'm guessing that if you use fire to cook meat in a competition that they consider it an infringement on their rules. :shocked:

IMHO, in cases like this if they feel compelled to send a C&D letter, it should also be be accompanied by a royalty-free licensing agreement for signature. It isn't good PR to stomp down BBQ when you are a non-profit whose stated purpose it to promote it. But then what do I know? :roll:

 

[Jorge]

Contest rules aren't IP - if they were then every little league in every sport would be paying fees to the NFL, MLB, NBA, etc or risk C&D letters for their 100 yard football field or 90 foot base paths. The scoring software, yes. the actual weighting and arithmetic, no.

KCBS is pursuing a course of "Broad brush bullying" (a common practice in software, ie Microsoft vs Barns & Noble) where they attempt to claim anything remotely associated with their activity as their IP, then using their larger size and war chest to bully others into compliance with their view of what they think they deserve.

KCBS is going to step on the wrong toes sooner or later and actually end up in court - it won't be a happy ending.

I have an opinion from a board certified IP attorney that doesn't agree with you.

I don't think KCBS needs to be pounding people into submission with the threat of litigation. I think we should be doing more to reach out to various regional associations and establishing beneficial relationships that serve the mission statement of KCBS and other groups. I think I sent you a proposal the other day via email, to reflect that.

 

[nukenight]

Kcbs

Kansas City Bullying Society

Enough Said!

 

[Jorge]

Hi Jorge, thanks for the feedback. As mentioned before I didnt correct the post i made previously on this forum stating that our rules are identical which in hindsight I "could" have done. The whole situation is a real shame, we have used our rules for 3 years in 9 competitions. They are different enough without making amendments but really need to know whether KCBS are basing their thought process on hearsay, old rules, or the rules that we have actually used over the last 3 years.

For starters we score 1 - 10 and dont drop any scores. We dont number boxes when they are given to teams they are marked for the first time when they are handed in, our desserts and sauces have to be made onsite, pork can be seperated to name but a few.

The thing i find most frustrating is that I have always said publicly that our rules are similar, including to Carolyn when i was introduced to her at the American Royal in 2009 and numerous others over the years, this isnt new and has not been an issue until I made the decision to move into Europe.

Either way we will have to see what their thought process is and where this leads.

If that's your case, I'd present that and more than likely resolve the situation.

Based on what I've read and heard from you, my observations are....

You need to be talking to Debbie Christian, privately. When you offer to turn your events over to KCBS, I can't take that seriously because I know that will NEVER happen. KCBS doesn't organize contests, it simply provides a service including rules and scoring. From a Yank in the Colonies it appears to me as if you are asking for preferential treatment for European teams. To my knowledge you don't have the contests to merit the additional entries that you are asking for. Explain the logic to teams here in the states that cook primarily in Kansas, Missouri, and Texas. In some cases each state will have as many contests on a weekend, as there are in Europe in a season.

I understand what you are trying to accomplish, and I understand that it's difficult. I just don't see it happening in all honesty, nor am I convinced that it should. In the end, this isn't a KCBS issue. The Jack and American Royal both draw champions from sanctioning organizations other than KCBS. IBCA, LSBS, and others. They manage to coexist here in the states. I see no reason for that to be impossible in Europe. Cooks will vote with their feet, and Euros.

If you want to help give teams there a leg up, approach someone like Adam Perry Lang and see if he'd be willing to do some classes. He understands Europe, has forgotten more about meat than most people will ever know, and has had success cooking competition BBQ here in the states. I've only met him twice, but we have many mutual friends that speak very highly of him.

That's my unsolicited advice and it's worth what you paid for it.

 

[deepsouth]

attorneys love to send letters.

 

[Slamdunkpro]

I have an opinion from a board certified IP attorney that doesn't agree with you.

That's what makes IP so interesting - what I posted was my board certified IP lawyer's opinion. Her comment was "I'd love to get this in front of a judge". Lawyers at 20 paces at dawn?:boxing::becky:

I don't think KCBS needs to be pounding people into submission with the threat of litigation. I think we should be doing more to reach out to various regional associations and establishing beneficial relationships that serve the mission statement of KCBS and other groups. I think I sent you a proposal the other day via email, to reflect that.

Agreed, the public image damage that's done every time they send out one of these specious C&D letters is greater than any potential "protection"

 

[BritToby]

Hi Jorge

I am in talks with Debbie, she has referred the matter to Wayne at KCBS. I was accused of trying to own BBQ in the UK and just wanted to make the point that I am happy to pass it over, but they genuinely do not know what is involved over here and realise that there is no way they are going t take me up on it.

Far from asking for preferential treatment for the European teams i want to see all of them qualify, as things stand the British Team is the only one that does. American teams work too hard and invest alot of money to earn their place. To see some guys in Europe just turn up "annoys" them and quite rightly. i cannot stress my position on this strongly enough.

I know Adam and asked him about running a class for us last week, I will be moving forward no matter what happens in the coming weeks. I really appreciate the feedback.
Cheers
Toby

 

[Jorge]

That's what makes IP so interesting - what I posted was my board certified IP lawyer's opinion. Her comment was "I'd love to get this in front of a judge". Lawyers at 20 paces at dawn?:boxing::becky:

I retained mine because he beat the crap out of that large company you referenced in Redmond, WA:becky: I like my chances:thumb:

Agreed, the public image damage that's done every time they send out one of these specious C&D letters is greater than any potential "protection"

If you get a chance, let me know what you think about the idea I sent you. I'd really like the benefit of your opinion.

 

[Dr_KY]

I'm a very simple guy as my long time brothers and sisters know and would love to know what the real issue is without all the fluff. I just want to cook, have a productive business, enjoy Q and chill with friends both new and old not to mention travel the world bring the Q bug with me.

• What's the REAL issue
• What's the problem?
• What's to gain?
• What's to lose?
• Who wants EXACTLY what from this?
• Where is this going?
• Why?
• Why not?
• Where exactly?

Anyone ?

I honestly trying to obtain an informed opinion on the issues so that I'm not speaking out of my backside due to being uninformed. Help

 

[kihrer]

I'm a very simple guy as my long time brothers and sisters know and would love to know what the real issue is without all the fluff. I just want to cook, have a productive business, enjoy Q and chill with friends both new and old not to mention travel the world bring the Q bug with me.

• What's the REAL issue It is usually money or power (sometimes pride)
• What's the problem? Someone doesn't have the money or power they want
• What's to gain? See above
• What's to lose? See above
  
• Who wants EXACTLY what from this?
• Where is this going?
• Why?
• Why not?
• Where exactly?

Anyone ?

I honestly trying to obtain an informed opinion on the issues so that I'm not speaking out of my backside due to being uninformed. Help

I am hopeful we learn a little more from the BoD meeting but my guess is all the real info will be in a closed session.

 

[drbbq]

Lawyers at 20 paces at dawn?:boxing::becky:

And bill everybody by the hour.

 

[YankeeBBQ]

There have been many backyard competitions that advertise or list on their entry form "loosely based" on KCBS rules. I wonder if these contests get C&D letters?

Yes some do

 

[YankeeBBQ]

I have an opinion from a board certified IP attorney that doesn't agree with you.

I don't think KCBS needs to be pounding people into submission with the threat of litigation. I think we should be doing more to reach out to various regional associations and establishing beneficial relationships that serve the mission statement of KCBS and other groups. I think I sent you a proposal the other day via email, to reflect that.

I agree with Slamdunk about the arithmetic and weighting not being protected by IP laws. I also took this to an IP lawyer at one time. Of course I was asking for free advice at the time and you know what Free advice is worth LOL

 

[Scottie]

I have an opinion from a board certified IP attorney that doesn't agree with you.

I don't think KCBS needs to be pounding people into submission with the threat of litigation. I think we should be doing more to reach out to various regional associations and establishing beneficial relationships that serve the mission statement of KCBS and other groups. I think I sent you a proposal the other day via email, to reflect that.

Sucks for Toby and his group, but i completely agree George. KCBS has to defend their IP. Just as the whole bruhaha with NEBS Grilling contests. Are there different avenues besides a C&D letter? Sure. But i do have to side with KCBS on this one.

My firm does all IP work for a gigantic hamburger fast good restaurant. They go after anyone that tries to use or tarnish their IP rights. I am not sure if they have lost one yet...

 

[BritToby]

Not too worried to be honest, i have the teams best interests at heart, lets face it, it has probably cost me £100,000 + over the last 3 years to develop what we have, and its only because of a supportive family that I have been able to put everything on the line to achieve it.

I will not walk away from the circuit, and the teams that have invested heavily into our little circuit. To be honest we do not know what their Cease and Desist is all about, if its rules, I am not worried in the slightest, if its something else I will deal with it in the morning. Its coming up to 7pm so time for a pint, catch you all in the morning!
Cheers
Toby

 

[kihrer]

My firm does all IP work for a gigantic hamburger fast good restaurant. They go after anyone that tries to use or tarnish their IP rights. I am not sure if they have lost one yet...

Ya think anyone will want to steal that rib recipe they have:becky:

 

[Jorge]

I'm guessing that if you use fire to cook meat in a competition that they consider it an infringement on their rules. :shocked:

IMHO, in cases like this if they feel compelled to send a C&D letter, it should also be be accompanied by a royalty-free licensing agreement for signature. It isn't good PR to stomp down BBQ when you are a non-profit whose stated purpose it to promote it. But then what do I know? :roll:

You are pretty sharp, and history and your posts substantiate that.

If a C&D letter is needed, so be it because KCBS rarely has an option. I'd like to see KCBS work with other groups, but I think the idea of sending a licensing agreement to eliminate the issue in ALL cases is misguided.

Show me some group that isn't competing, and has similar goals and I'm fine with it. Show me a group that is in it for profit, or is inherently dysfunctional (insert mockery here) and I'll object. I'll support a case by case review, with the deciding factor(s) being the benefit to BBQ as a whole and potential liability/issues for KCBS. Based on what I know of other, regional, associations there are several that I'd support a licensing agreement with. I think the potential to promote BBQ and carry out the mission statement of KCBS would benefit from that. In some other cases, not so much.

 

[Slamdunkpro]

Sucks for Toby and his group, but i completely agree George. KCBS has to defend their IP. Just as the whole bruhaha with NEBS Grilling contests. Are there different avenues besides a C&D letter? Sure. But i do have to side with KCBS on this one.

My firm does all IP work for a gigantic hamburger fast good restaurant. They go after anyone that tries to use or tarnish their IP rights. I am not sure if they have lost one yet...

There's a big difference between Patent / Trademark / Copyright infringement and the vague umbrella IP arguments that KCBS has put out.

 

[QN]

Here's another example... anybody ever confuse kale and chicken?

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/eating/2011/11/eat_more_kale_guy_pisses_off_c.php

"Eat More Kale" is way too close for comfort to their "Eat mor chikin" phrase. In a letter, a lawyer for Chick-fil-A said Muller-Moore's "eat more kale" message "is likely to cause confusion of the public and dilutes the distinctiveness of Chick-fil-A's intellectual property and diminishes its value.
Kale

Chicken