Is charcoal , charcoal ?

[smoke ninja]

You can run, but you cannot hide.




Posting a website that contradicts your claim is a good start.
I've read it, and I have UNDERSTOOD it, and therein lies the difference.
For you to prove you know what you are talking about, answer these questions. Otherwise all will know you are just reading stuff, misunderstanding but coming after people with your psuedo science.

1)Explain what happens to reaction between amino acids and sugars in radiant heat versus in non radiant heat?



2)Also, explain how searing is related to The Maillard Reaction?
That is a cracker right there.

3)Tell us specifically.
What is the difference in Maillard Reaction when a chicken thigh is on a grill in direct heat at 260f compared the what the amino acids and sugars do indirect at a temperature of 300f???


Should be easy.

Silence.

His majesty will tolerate no more of this insolence.

 

[buccaneer]

Buccs honestly I'll never get baited by you ever again. Go argue with someone else...aint gonna be me.

Besides I believe you'll have your hands full in your WP post.

Wait, who is baiting.
You made a false set of claims.
You have been doing it for a year, and I am simply calling on you to substantiate that you aren't just trying to appear like the lord of the chook bbq by misquoting science from layman websites but that you actually are guiding with knowledge.
Answer those simple questions.

 

[buccaneer]

:laugh: @ Smoke Ninja!

That's GOLD!

:laugh:

 

[Fwismoker]

:hand:

 

[pjtexas1]

C'mon, don't the mods have a tough enough gig as it is?:becky:

 

[buccaneer]

C'mon, don't the mods have a tough enough gig as it is?:becky:

Absolutely nothing has occurred that would need the mods.
Everyone has remained civil and on topic.
The real problem with mod harrassment is when people run to the mods for help when no infraction has occurred.

 

[grantw]

Just Incase were going to make it back on topic, I would say all the different design cookers I have cook differently with the same coal. I don't think ones better than the other just different. The only reason you will see me posting a WSM is the best cooker has a lot to do with the cost of the thing , it looks purdy, and does a dam fine job.

 

[jbounds286]

all i know...is every time i smoke chicken or burgers.....it doesnt get that nice crust/sear on it like it does when its directly over flame(in contact with griddle)

 

[cseymour45]

2) A better more pronounced maillard reaction ABSOLUTELY does happen more cooking with direct heat vs indirect. If it doesn't then stop grilling, griddleing....try searing your steak in a cabinet smoker :crazy: What you need to do is go stand in the sun for a few hours in 90* and then do the same thing when it's 90* in the shade and tell me which one gives you a burn.

Well get your cabinet smoker up to 500 + degrees and by golly it will sear.

I'm not taking sides in this argument, it does have me thinking though. When you are directly cooking over an open fire you are probably charring instead of searing, very high temperatures past whats needed for a 'sear'.

Also, your shade statement is all about UV rays ''The sun is very hot so it emits radiation at many different wavelengths. The surface can be approximated as a blackbody at 6000 K. A normal orange flame may burn at 600 K or so. It isn't hot enough to radiate UV rays but it does radiate in the visible and infrared parts of the electromagnetic spectrum.'' some physics nerd quote.

 

[cseymour45]

Humidity is effected by the cooker by means of air flow, that smidgeon is true.

Yep, thus creating different cooking speeds / textures / taste, answering a large portion of the original question.

 

[BBQchef33]

I suggest the pissing contest comes to an end if it hasn't already... :mod:

And just to add to the ontopic..

My spicewine and pbc both use charcoal only. I use both to cook mainly chicken.
Usually spatchcocked and the flavor profile of each is vastly different.

 

[Twisted T's Q]

I suggest the pissing contest comes to an end if it hasn't already... :mod:

And just to add to the ontopic..

My spicewine and pbc both use charcoal only. I use both to cook mainly chicken.
Usually spatchcocked and the flavor profile of each is vastly different.

thank you, and witch flavor do you prefer the spice wine or pbc ?

 

[smoke ninja]

Flavor development , from Maillard reaction has absolutely no relationship with the directness to the fire, contrary to the above claim. Zero. Nada. Zilch. It has to do with temperature and humidity.
Humidity is effected by the cooker by means of air flow, that smidgeon is true.

I would see it different. According to the amazingribs.com article Keith posted radiation transfers energy better than convection. Heres the authors example :

"Also, radiant heat delivers more energy than convection heat. Let's say you have two gas grills. On one grill, the two burners on the right side are on full and two burners on the left are turned off. The air temp on the left side, the indirect heat side, might be 325°F as convection flow of air from the right side circulates over the left side. Let's put a steak and a big honkin prime rib roast on the left, indirect side.

On the second grill you have all four burners on medium and the air temp on the both sides is also 325°F. Let's put a steak and a roast on this grill too. The steak's bottom will brown better on the second grill because it is above direct radiant heat which is imparting more energy than the first grill where the heat is from convection air. But by the time the roast is done, it will be blacker than a mourning hat."

Direct cooking should have more radiant energy, at the same temp, than indirect cooking. The greater energy transfer to the outside of the meat will result in more Maillard reaction.

Interested in your take on this

I can't speak to much here, but your 90* in the shade analogy is false. Fires that anyone is cooking on do not give off uv.

Its not UV it infrared thats doing the work in this case.

Ive spent more hours than most in the sun, it definitely feels hotter.

 

[buccaneer]

I would see it different. According to the amazingribs.com article Keith posted radiation transfers energy better than convection. Heres the authors example :

"Also, radiant heat delivers more energy than convection heat. Let's say you have two gas grills. On one grill, the two burners on the right side are on full and two burners on the left are turned off. The air temp on the left side, the indirect heat side, might be 325°F as convection flow of air from the right side circulates over the left side. Let's put a steak and a big honkin prime rib roast on the left, indirect side.

On the second grill you have all four burners on medium and the air temp on the both sides is also 325°F. Let's put a steak and a roast on this grill too. The steak's bottom will brown better on the second grill because it is above direct radiant heat which is imparting more energy than the first grill where the heat is from convection air. But by the time the roast is done, it will be blacker than a mourning hat."

Direct cooking should have more radiant energy, at the same temp, than indirect cooking. The greater energy transfer to the outside of the meat will result in more Maillard reaction.

Interested in your take on this

Maillard Reaction is a process that happens between proteins, carbohydrates, sugars like D-ribose, D-glucose, D-fructose, α-lactose and sucrose, and amino acids.
The PACE that it occurs depends on temperature, not as Fistwacker (sp) claimed that the food needs to be/ or is better directly over the fire/looking at the fire.

Think about it.
If that were true, why would Franklins briskets have that glorious bark???
It just is not true.
Maillard Reaction occurs in pressure cookers FFS.:doh:.

Does meat benefit from direct heat?
Sure, but that wasn't the simple claim. DIrect exposure to fire also skyrockets the carcingens that cause cancer.(acrylamide production)
Maillard browning is a chemical reaction. Most chemical reactions are accelerated by heat and Maillard browning is no exception. The higher the temp, the faster your meat will brown. So, if you get a shielded cooking position hot enough like in an offset, and you cook long enough, you will get Maillard Reaction.
Same when we make a stock or a gravy, long slow low heat develops Maillard Reaction.

Furthermore, to ridicule the claim a little more realistically, imagine cooking pizza on a kamado.We set a barrier between the fire and the pizza.Cook at 800F. Gorgeous pizza and crust, heaps of Maillard Reaction in no time.
Now do it according to the "God Of Chooks" method and make it tastier by "getting more Maillard Reaction" by cooking it on the grate directly over the fire.:doh:
See what I mean now?

I hope this clears the matter up.

 

[Fwismoker]

I NEVER said you don't get Maillard reaction with convection heat. I said you get better (more pronounced) maillard reaction flavor from direct radiant heat. Go ahead and cook a chicken indirect @ 350* or cook it 350* grilling from a distance and tell me which you like better.

If bucc wants to use his kamado pizza analogy and sear a steak @ 800* he can have at it :laugh: Might be a tad over cooked :shock:

I'll personally use a CI pan via conduction heat or close to fire using some good old fashion radiant heat (I love my carcinogens) :grin:
BTW, his analogy with the pizza uses conduction heat on the crust via a stone and the cheese's brown pretty easy with the convection heat.

The Franklin brisket analogy? If anything is cooked as long as a brisket is of course will develop the bark with that much time in the cooker but most bbq meats aren't cooked 10 hours.



Meats don't need to be cooked to black over hot coals or fire to get the benefits of a good browning with direct heat.


Back to the original topic. You get vastly different tastes with direct, indirect or griddle type cooking. People want to split hairs have at it but it doesn't change the FACTS. I personally love all the methods. In my UDS with a holy type diffuser it allows a blended type of heat which combines some indirect and some direct. I also like cooking direct over a fire but controlled from a distance. I also like using rotisserie over direct where it mixes things up through the rotation. I also like griddle cooking and searing my steak in a hot cast iron skillet.

So to the OP...Fuel being the same and cookers being different YES it makes a huge difference on flavor/outside texture depending on the cooker and how you use the cooker. Example I might cook a tri tip indirect and then sear it over the grill portion of one of my cookers, that same tri tip i might use my rotisserie and get good even cooking but then stop the rotation over the fire and brown each side further at the end.


Something many people don't understand is there is a major difference between temperature and heat and that plays a huge role in how our food turns out.

 

[AClarke44]

Fistwacker! Lol. :laugh:
Anyway I've read that acrylamide production can happen when baking bread or making french fries. Also that it is a byproduct of the Maillard Reaction. I don't know enough so I'm not taking sides just stating what I read.
I do have a question though. When cooking in a vertical cooker with no diffuser like in a UDS or PBC, where does that fall in the direct/indirect category. I mean common sense says it's direct but if it's a lower heat cook, say under 300° what's the affect of the acrylamide production and Maillard reaction?
I may not be a asking that right, again I'm just trying to understand.

 

[buccaneer]

I NEVER said you don't get Maillard reaction with convection heat. I said you get better flavor or it from direct radiant heat. If bucc wants to use his kamado pizza analogy and sear a steak @ 800* he can have at it :laugh: Might be a tad over cooked :shock:

I'll personally use a CI pan via conduction heat or close to fire using some good old fashion radiant heat (I love my carcinogens) :grin:

Meats don't need to be cooked to black over hot coals or fire to get the benefits of a good browning with direct heat.

:scared: Wait! :scared:

Where is the :violin::violin::violin::violin:
about you being 'baited', and how you would never be "baited" by the evil uncle Buccs again???:doh:

Flavor will vary if the meat can see the fire or not. I don't mean dripping juices but flavor created from a good maillard reaction on the surface.

This statement is untrue and incorrect.
The problem you have is you are not understanding what you are reading. My examples above explain why that statement is incorrect, but you just fail to grasp it.

 

[buccaneer]

Fistwacker! Lol. :laugh:
Anyway I've read that acrylamide production can happen when baking bread or making french fries. Also that it is a byproduct of the Maillard Reaction. I don't know enough so I'm not taking sides just stating what I read.
I do have a question though. When cooking in a vertical cooker with no diffuser like in a UDS or PBC, where does that fall in the direct/indirect category. I mean common sense says it's direct but if it's a lower heat cook, say under 300° what's the affect of the acrylamide production and Maillard reaction?
I may not be a asking that right, again I'm just trying to understand.

It's true that acrylamide is produced by Maillard Reaction, and along with baking bread or other carbs it is also produced when we apply enough high heat to even preserved meats like bacon(nitrite cured) or salami.
So, it is about temperature with those.
http://search.proquest.com/openview/acb2e9187ea16b650b1357d4b653d6e5/1?pq-origsite=gscholar

 

[buccaneer]

Something many people don't understand is there is a major difference between temperature and heat and that plays a huge role in how our food turns out.

Definition Heat:the quality of being hot; high temperature.
Definition :the degree or intensity of heat present
:noidea:

I note you went back and edited your post again after reading a rebuttal.
That makes the thread confusing.

 

[Fwismoker]

If your meat can "see the fire" meaning direct heat yes you flavor will be different.

I'm gonna leave you to your splitting hairs now bucc. Play nice with the other children or we'll have to call the authorities.