Beef on my Vision Kamado -- I Need Help!

[RJ_Make]

Sorry for the long post, but I'm at wits end here...

So apparently I'm 'just not getting it'. I'm new to Kamado cooking (4 months) (coming from a cheap electric Masterbuilt smoker), and just can't seem to get juicy beef (chicken & pork seems ok)

The Problem(s)
Dry Beef
The first and most important, all of my beef cooks are coming out on the dry side (it's tender and tasty).

Smoke Not Lasting Very Long
The second is I can't seem to keep the wood smoking for very long, maybe a couple of hours at most. When I inspect the coals after a cook, I notice that much of the wood is still present and only half burnt (the section closest to the hot coals)

Since adding wood, or even resetting the un-burnt pieces is such a pain on the Kamado style grill, I really need some advice on how to get the smoke to last longer.


Grill Setup
As mentioned, using a Vision classic B w/ash drawer. I'm layering wood and charcoal in an attempt to get even smoke through out the cook.

Using the Vision ceramic deflector; drip pan on first rack level (generally filled with fluid of some nature) then the food on the second level.

On long cooks, I also use the Rocks Stoker. Not that it matters, but I thought I would mention it.

Cook Example
So lets take the Brisket I did today as an example. This was a Sams Club Angus Beef USDA Choice Flat (~7lbs). Prepped 8 hrs ahead with my favorite rub. Morning; started grill (250F) while letting brisket come up to room temp.

When meat hit 165-170 double wrapped in foil. Checked at 195, probed and didn't feel ready, probed at 203, almost but just not quite yet. Probed again at 205 and felt really good. Probed in at least 5 -8 different area's

Pulled and wrapped in towel and placed in the cooler for another hour.

Meat is tender and tasty, but dry and this is the case for everything beef I've cooked on this grill.

Could it be the quality of the meat I'm getting? It's just a bit disappointing I can't seem to get this grill to work as well as my old Masterbuilt.

Anyway, I'm sure it's me and something I'm doing or not doing so any advice is much appreciated. and thanks for reading this saga of a post..

 

[Big George's BBQ]

I have a large Egg I only use lump in mine That will give it some smoke flavor I put all of my wood chunks on top and dont put them on till I have it started and trying to get it to temp I use a fire starter to get the lump going Sometimes the chunks burn and some dont You will only get a mild smoke flavor Check out the ceramic cooking at the Naked Whiz Mods hope you dont mind this reference to this site

 

[Big George's BBQ]

With the Egg i build my fire- putting large pieces of lump on the grate and addind to it to promote air flow I dont use small pieces until all of my air holes are covered Humphreys lump and Royal Oak are good brands Chef Select is the better quality of Royal Oak Personally I wont use Cowboy My favorite is Whicked Good Lump If using briquettes I would use a hardwood briquette as it will give you more smoke flavor My fav is Lump Hope all of this helps I love my Egg

 

[pjtexas1]

Is it just the pics or are you slicing with the grain?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[ncmoose]

CeramicChef can definitely help with some of the smoke issues. I haven't gotten that involved with my egg but placement of my chunks have made a big difference since observing how the lump burns. (Not out, but down)

In terms of moisture, my issues have improved by getting some buffer between the heat and the meat (more than just the diffuser/place setter). Sounds like you are doing that. I put a water pan on some foil balls and elevated my grill to get it away from the heat. I also have gone fat cap down. These things have worked for me.

 

[Big George's BBQ]

I use a raised grid that got from the ceramic grill store and use the pizza stone wrapped in foil for indirect heat Then I use a flat foil cooking sheet to catch the drippings- that actually gives you a wider indirect heat- I put it on top of the pizza stone

 

[Taylormade]

This is probably one of those Ford/Chevy things, but I would think that leaving your rub on overnight would cause and salts or sugars you have to absorb moisture and dry out the meat. There's a group of people that think you should only add rub to beef right before it hits the grate. I happen to be in that group, albeit not from experience of doing it both ways, rather pure laziness.

When I do pork ribs, I'll let the rub sit for at least 20 minutes, but otherwise everything goes right on.

Is your water (or other liquid pan) big enough? I have a Vision Series B as well and absolutely love it (except for the firebox falling apart but that's another story). When doing brisket, I ensure there's a big foil pan filled at least 3/4 with water. It's well below 1/4 when the brisket comes off.

Are you spritzing the meat before you wrap it? After about 2 hours, I start spraying the meat down every 45 minutes or so with whatever favorite concoction (pickle juice, worcestershire, apple juice, root beer, etc). That certainly helps with moisture.

Looks like in the pics, and the low weight of the brisket, you're cooking just the flat and not the point. The flat is leaner, and thus drier, than the point.

I'm assuming that you're comparing apples to apples with your prior electric smoker and just aren't achieving the same results with the kamado?

 

[RJ_Make]

With the Egg i build my fire- putting large pieces of lump on the grate and addind to it to promote air flow I dont use small pieces until all of my air holes are covered Humphreys lump and Royal Oak are good brands Chef Select is the better quality of Royal Oak Personally I wont use Cowboy My favorite is Whicked Good Lump If using briquettes I would use a hardwood briquette as it will give you more smoke flavor My fav is Lump Hope all of this helps I love my Egg

That is how I'm loading my RO. Base of big first layer, then wood, more RO then wood. I'll check out the reference. Thanks

Is it just the pics or are you slicing with the grain?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Yeah, I think we goofed on this one, but I'm not 100% sure.

CeramicChef can definitely help with some of the smoke issues. I haven't gotten that involved with my egg but placement of my chunks have made a big difference since observing how the lump burns. (Not out, but down)

In terms of moisture, my issues have improved by getting some buffer between the heat and the meat (more than just the diffuser/place setter). Sounds like you are doing that. I put a water pan on some foil balls and elevated my grill to get it away from the heat. I also have gone fat cap down. These things have worked for me.

I have always cooked fat cap up. Thinking was that I was well diffused bottom side so let the fat penetrate downward. My next one will be cap side down.

This is probably one of those Ford/Chevy things, but I would think that leaving your rub on overnight would cause and salts or sugars you have to absorb moisture and dry out the meat. There's a group of people that think you should only add rub to beef right before it hits the grate. I happen to be in that group, albeit not from experience of doing it both ways, rather pure laziness.

When I do pork ribs, I'll let the rub sit for at least 20 minutes, but otherwise everything goes right on.

Is your water (or other liquid pan) big enough? I have a Vision Series B as well and absolutely love it (except for the firebox falling apart but that's another story). When doing brisket, I ensure there's a big foil pan filled at least 3/4 with water. It's well below 1/4 when the brisket comes off.

Are you spritzing the meat before you wrap it? After about 2 hours, I start spraying the meat down every 45 minutes or so with whatever favorite concoction (pickle juice, worcestershire, apple juice, root beer, etc). That certainly helps with moisture.

Looks like in the pics, and the low weight of the brisket, you're cooking just the flat and not the point. The flat is leaner, and thus drier, than the point.

I'm assuming that you're comparing apples to apples with your prior electric smoker and just aren't achieving the same results with the kamado?

It's just one of those things I've always done (rub late night before) but perhaps it's time to change things up with this grill.

Water pan is ~ 10x13x3 and filled about 1/2 way.

Spritz with apple juice on the 2, 4 and 6 hours, but did not spritz or add any marinade before wrapping.

Yes it's a flat. It was lean but had an ~1/4 fat cap.

I'm pretty much using the same process (meats are different and varied) between my electric and the vision.

Almost wish I had kept the electric at this point, but I thinking my learning cure is going to be much greater with a ceramic over my electric.. :becky:

 

[Taylormade]

It's just one of those things I've always done (rub late night before) but perhaps it's time to change things up with this grill.

Water pan is ~ 10x13x3 and filled about 1/2 way.

Spritz with apple juice on the 2, 4 and 6 hours, but did not spritz or add any marinade before wrapping.

Yes it's a flat. It was lean but had an ~1/4 fat cap.

I'm pretty much using the same process (meats are different and varied) between my electric and the vision.

Almost wish I had kept the electric at this point, but I thinking my learning cure is going to be much greater with a ceramic over my electric.. :becky:

Are you checking your Vision temps by IR, probe or with the built in thermo? I ask because there was a ~30-40 delta between actual temps at the grate vs what the Vision built in was reading until I got about 2 hours into the cook. I wonder if you're cooking higher or lower than you think?

I hear what you're saying about the electric, but that's not a thought that's ever crept into my mind. I had two MES 30s and a 40 and quite literally the first time I cooked burgers on the kamado, the electric was on CL. I hadn't even smoked with it yet but I knew it was going to be great (and it has been!).

There certainly are learning curves with each change of equipment... man, if you think this one is steep wait until someone gives you a deal on a stick burner you can't refuse. :mrgreen:

 

[DubfromGA]

On my BigJoe, I put the scored fat cap downward towards the heat deflectors.

I load the firebox with 2/3 lump and 1/3 wood chunks or mini-splits.

I never inject my briskets or butts.

Cook my briskets at 225-240.

I generally wrap the brisket when it hits low 160's and let it finish the cook in foil or paper. I let it rest for the an hour before slicing with a razor sharp knife----perpendicular to the grain.


Cook my butts at 250-275.

Never wrap my butts. Let them rest for 30 minutes before pulling the bone and shredding up. I thin hit the shredded with a tangy-sweet vinegar sauce and watch folks fight over the bark.


Resting before cutting is a key step for redistribution of juice.

 

[Ron_L]

Some good suggestion above, but a few thoughts from me inline below...

Sorry for the long post, but I'm at wits end here...

So apparently I'm 'just not getting it'. I'm new to Kamado cooking (4 months) (coming from a cheap electric Masterbuilt smoker), and just can't seem to get juicy beef (chicken & pork seems ok)

The Problem(s)
Dry Beef
The first and most important, all of my beef cooks are coming out on the dry side (it's tender and tasty).

Beef is pretty general. The pics look like a piece of a brisket flat, so my answers are about brisket.

Was it dry but sliceable, or was it dry and falling apart? The first is undercooked and the latter is over cooked.

I saw in another post that you are cooking fat cap up. Try fat cap down to shield the meat from the heat coming from below. Fat rendering from the fat cap just drips off of the meat. It will not penetrate the meat.

Also, Try a packer brisket instead of a piece of a flat. Cook it until you get the bark color that you want and then foil it and cook in the foil until the thickest part of the flat is probe tender.

Smoke Not Lasting Very Long
The second is I can't seem to keep the wood smoking for very long, maybe a couple of hours at most. When I inspect the coals after a cook, I notice that much of the wood is still present and only half burnt (the section closest to the hot coals)

Since adding wood, or even resetting the un-burnt pieces is such a pain on the Kamado style grill, I really need some advice on how to get the smoke to last longer.

You don’t want to see smoke! Clean smoke is either clear or a thin blue in color. Visible white smoke indicated that the fire isn’t burning efficiently. With a kamado style cooker there really is no need to add wood.


Grill Setup
As mentioned, using a Vision classic B w/ash drawer. I'm layering wood and charcoal in an attempt to get even smoke through out the cook.

Using the Vision ceramic deflector; drip pan on first rack level (generally filled with fluid of some nature) then the food on the second level.

On long cooks, I also use the Rocks Stoker. Not that it matters, but I thought I would mention it.


The setup sounds similar to what I do in my BGE, except I skip the liquid.

Cook Example
So lets take the Brisket I did today as an example. This was a Sams Club Angus Beef USDA Choice Flat (~7lbs). Prepped 8 hrs ahead with my favorite rub. Morning; started grill (250F) while letting brisket come up to room temp.

When meat hit 165-170 double wrapped in foil. Checked at 195, probed and didn't feel ready, probed at 203, almost but just not quite yet. Probed again at 205 and felt really good. Probed in at least 5 -8 different area's

Pulled and wrapped in towel and placed in the cooler for another hour.

Meat is tender and tasty, but dry and this is the case for everything beef I've cooked on this grill.

Did you vent the foil before it hit the cooler? If not, it kept cooking in the cooler. Vent the foil for about 10 minutes to dump some heat and prevent carryover cooking. Otherwise it sounds good.

Could it be the quality of the meat I'm getting? It's just a bit disappointing I can't seem to get this grill to work as well as my old Masterbuilt.

The only thing about the meat is cooking a small flat. I’ve done it and had good success, but having the point to protect the flat will give you a better chance of success.

Anyway, I'm sure it's me and something I'm doing or not doing so any advice is much appreciated. and thanks for reading this saga of a post..

 

[CeramicChef]

RJ_Make - that you state that you find your cooks dry is something I've not run into in good kamado management of cooks. Let's take a look at your post and see if we can figure this out.

First, are you slicing the brisket and eating immediately or waiting. Brisket dries out quite quickly once sliced.

Second, are you trimming fat from the brisket flat before you cook it? If so, I suggest that you leave much more fat on your brisket flat before you put it on the grate. When you purchase a brisket, try and see how aggressively it was trimmed prior to being cryovaced for sale.

Third, I tend to cook my briskets fat cap up over a drip pan that rests on a heat deflector. I always use drip pans and heat deflectors when doing a low-n-slow cooks. I don't ever use a water pan when cooking in any of my kamados.

Fourth, to get a good deal of smoke on a cook, I put the cook in the freezer for an our before the cook goes on the cooking grate. Smoke condensation decreases as the surface tep of the cook increases during the cooking process.

Fifth, to get good smoke all during a cook, strategic placement of wood chunks is paramount. Now I heat soak my kamados for an hour or so at the cooking temp so that once a assemble everything for the cook, everything gets back to temp ASAP. I always do low-n-slows with a heat deflector, a drip pan, the cooking grate, and then the cook. Prior to heat soaking, I just pile all this stuff on the main grate. Then when I'm ready to cook, I'll assemble per the above. This is when I put on the smoke wood. I place the smoke wood in concentric circles around the fire. A priori, you really don't know how the fire will spread. So I put a fair amount in very close concentric circles. I nestle the smoke wood down in the lup level with the top of the lump. Work quickly as your heat deflector and cooking grate is cooling while you put smoke wood in your cooker.

Sixth, and this sounds counter intuitive, but I've never wrapped a single low-n-slow cook in over 20 years of kamado cooking until I pull the cook and then I wrap it for storage in my cooler. I've never had a dry cook. I also Generally don't pull a cook until it probes very tender at between 200-205° or so. If you like to wrap, might I suggest that you add some apple juice during the wrapping process? This might help with the dryness.

Seventh, I notice that you've used a digital temp controller. I don't, but that's a personal preference. What percentage of the time was the fan blowing? If it was blowing a big percentage of the time, this might be causing some of our dryness. What's happening is you're blowing moisture that would orally be staying inside the kamado out the top vent. Check your cook details for your blower. Just a thought.

Lastly, I know a good many folks who have great results with their Vision Kamados. So will you. We'll get this figured out for you. No big deal.

 

[RJ_Make]

Are you checking your Vision temps by IR, probe or with the built in thermo? I ask because there was a ~30-40 delta between actual temps at the grate vs what the Vision built in was reading until I got about 2 hours into the cook. I wonder if you're cooking higher or lower than you think?

I hear what you're saying about the electric, but that's not a thought that's ever crept into my mind. I had two MES 30s and a 40 and quite literally the first time I cooked burgers on the kamado, the electric was on CL. I hadn't even smoked with it yet but I knew it was going to be great (and it has been!).

There certainly are learning curves with each change of equipment... man, if you think this one is steep wait until someone gives you a deal on a stick burner you can't refuse. :mrgreen:

For long cooks > 3hrs, I'm using my Rocks Stoker, calibrated and confirmed. For short cooks I'm using a ThermoPro TP08 also calibrated and confirmed.

Don't get me wrong, I do like the Vision as it's quite versatile, and smoked ribs and chicken come out very nice, although could use more smoke.

On my BigJoe, I put the scored fat cap downward towards the heat deflectors.

I load the firebox with 2/3 lump and 1/3 wood chunks or mini-splits.

I never inject my briskets or butts.

Cook my briskets at 225-240.

I generally wrap the brisket when it hits low 160's and let it finish the cook in foil or paper. I let it rest for the an hour before slicing with a razor sharp knife----perpendicular to the grain.


Cook my butts at 250-275.

Never wrap my butts. Let them rest for 30 minutes before pulling the bone and shredding up. I thin hit the shredded with a tangy-sweet vinegar sauce and watch folks fight over the bark.


Resting before cutting is a key step for redistribution of juice.

Thanks, so scored fat down. Interesting.. Is the scoring for the smoke or rub?

Some good suggestion above, but a few thoughts from me inline below...

1) It's very tender (sliceable) and tastes great, but is much dryer then cooks on my old electric.

2) Packer? I don't think a full brisket will fit on this grill?

3) I do look for that blue smoke, the problem I've run into is it takes a long time ~1.5hrs to get to that stage and then shortly after dies off to nothing. If smoke is clear how do you know if you have wood burning?

4) I only vented long enough to probe, which is no where near 10 min.

RJ_Make - that you state that you find your cooks dry is something I've not run into in good kamado management of cooks. Let's take a look at your post and see if we can figure this out.

First, are you slicing the brisket and eating immediately or waiting. Brisket dries out quite quickly once sliced.

Second, are you trimming fat from the brisket flat before you cook it? If so, I suggest that you leave much more fat on your brisket flat before you put it on the grate. When you purchase a brisket, try and see how aggressively it was trimmed prior to being cryovaced for sale.

Third, I tend to cook my briskets fat cap up over a drip pan that rests on a heat deflector. I always use drip pans and heat deflectors when doing a low-n-slow cooks. I don't ever use a water pan when cooking in any of my kamados.

Fourth, to get a good deal of smoke on a cook, I put the cook in the freezer for an our before the cook goes on the cooking grate. Smoke condensation decreases as the surface tep of the cook increases during the cooking process.

Fifth, to get good smoke all during a cook, strategic placement of wood chunks is paramount. Now I heat soak my kamados for an hour or so at the cooking temp so that once a assemble everything for the cook, everything gets back to temp ASAP. I always do low-n-slows with a heat deflector, a drip pan, the cooking grate, and then the cook. Prior to heat soaking, I just pile all this stuff on the main grate. Then when I'm ready to cook, I'll assemble per the above. This is when I put on the smoke wood. I place the smoke wood in concentric circles around the fire. A priori, you really don't know how the fire will spread. So I put a fair amount in very close concentric circles. I nestle the smoke wood down in the lup level with the top of the lump. Work quickly as your heat deflector and cooking grate is cooling while you put smoke wood in your cooker.

Sixth, and this sounds counter intuitive, but I've never wrapped a single low-n-slow cook in over 20 years of kamado cooking until I pull the cook and then I wrap it for storage in my cooler. I've never had a dry cook. I also Generally don't pull a cook until it probes very tender at between 200-205° or so. If you like to wrap, might I suggest that you add some apple juice during the wrapping process? This might help with the dryness.

Seventh, I notice that you've used a digital temp controller. I don't, but that's a personal preference. What percentage of the time was the fan blowing? If it was blowing a big percentage of the time, this might be causing some of our dryness. What's happening is you're blowing moisture that would orally be staying inside the kamado out the top vent. Check your cook details for your blower. Just a thought.

Lastly, I know a good many folks who have great results with their Vision Kamados. So will you. We'll get this figured out for you. No big deal.

1) I've always let the meat rest, foiled and wrapped for at least 45 min. Saturdays was ~75min

2) These where pretty lean flats but did have ~1/4" of fat on them. I generally only cut out the hard fat, however there was none (very little) on this brisket.

3) In your case usage I assume the drip pan is only for dripping control?

4) Holy crap, I've been doing literally the opposite and allowing the beef to come up to as close as possible to room temperature. I will certainly try that next time.

5) Noted. I've been doing something similar, but letting the temp stabiles for at least 30 min without anything in the grill except the cooking grate. Once I'm stable, I remove the grate, then add the wood (perhaps too haphazardly) then stone mount, stone, grate, water pan then meat.

This is where I will get tons of white smoke at first so the first 30-45 minutes of smoke is that white, not so good, smoke. It seems the only way I can get that nice blue smoke is to add the wood on startup, but then it just doesn't last very long by the time the meat is on.

It's like a "catch 22"..

6) I will indeed try some liquid at foiling.

7) I'll have to keep an eye on that, I don't think it runs much once the temp. has stabilized but I don't know the exact amount.

What has blown me away with this grill is it's amazing ability to maintain incredibly stable/steady temperatures, but with that I think may also be one of the reason there is low smoke production.

I've noticed when I open the lid to check on things and I get more oxygen in the chamber the unit will start smoking again for a little bit.

Guys, thank you for taking the time to help me find a solution to my 'ceramic problems', (more like growing pains). I already feel a little more confident, (new things to try) for my next long beef cook.

 

[Ron_L]

Trust me, the wood is burning even if the smoke is clear. Smell it.

You really need to vent to stop the carry over.

As far as fittin, what size Vision? I can fit a pretty big packer on my Large Big Green Egg. You can put a rib rack or metal bowl under the middle if you need to to raise the center to make it fit.

 

[Westx]

One thing you mentioned is you wrap in foil at 165ish and them take it off cooker when probe tender and let it rest in the foil. The thing I think your missing is once you pull a foiled brisket is you need to open the foil and let it rest like that for about 15 to 20 minutes. This stops the cooking process. As long as it stays fully wrapped it will keep cooking thus drying out the meat.

 

[PnkPanther]

A. Ive never considered myself an expert but thought I knew my stuff. Amazed at knowledge on here and good advice. All tips I know we're covered and few others.


B. I think good chuckie will give better results than just the flat. That's my personal opinion, but I recommend at least trying it out.

 

[RJ_Make]

Trust me, the wood is burning even if the smoke is clear. Smell it.

You really need to vent to stop the carry over.

As far as fittin, what size Vision? I can fit a pretty big packer on my Large Big Green Egg. You can put a rib rack or metal bowl under the middle if you need to to raise the center to make it fit.

It's the 18" model. The rack/bowl ideal is brilliant, thanks.

When I can no longer 'detect' any smoke, the only cent I'm smelling is the hardwood charcoal burning.

One thing you mentioned is you wrap in foil at 165ish and them take it off cooker when probe tender and let it rest in the foil. The thing I think your missing is once you pull a foiled brisket is you need to open the foil and let it rest like that for about 15 to 20 minutes. This stops the cooking process. As long as it stays fully wrapped it will keep cooking thus drying out the meat.

It is definitely something I've not been doing and maybe the cause of all my dry issues. I will not make that mistake again.. :caked:

A. Ive never considered myself an expert but thought I knew my stuff. Amazed at knowledge on here and good advice. All tips I know we're covered and few others.


B. I think good chuckie will give better results than just the flat. That's my personal opinion, but I recommend at least trying it out.

My next brisket will be complete. :icon_smile_tongue:

 

[mjpmap]

You've already got a lot of good tips on the wood chunk placement. I use a Primo Kamado and an Igrill2 temp probe. One of the concepts of a Kamado is that it does have less air flow, so less problems with drying out food. That gets negated somewhat each time you lift the lid. By using the Igrill, i set a target internal temp and then leave it. No spritzing, no peeking. On a butt or brisket, I don't bother checking until 195 internal. I also pass on a drip pan or water pan. I have a wide drywall mud knife to scrape the deflector plate after a cook. I think the juices dripping on the hot plate and coals actually adds to the flavor. Everybody has their own method, this just happens to be what works for me.

 

[JS-TX]

I think the primary reasons for your dry beef is the lack of marbling in your beef. Each cut can vary regardless if it's choice or prime. Also go with a packer cut next time and go fat cap down. The general rule of thumb is fat cap towards your heat source.

As far as smoke I like to mix chunks and some chips throughout the lump. You don't need to see smoke, thin blue smoke is ideal. You can wrap later in the process to get more smoke on your beef as well. Kamado cookers are very forgiving cookers, lots of time you don't even need to wrap since by design they retain moisture so well.

 

[dgaddis1]

A few other thoughts:

Don't let the brisket sit out and come up to room temp. Take it out of the fridge, apply the rub, and then go straight into the cooker. If it's cold moisture will condense on it, which attracts more smoke.

After the first few hours, once you start getting a good bark on it, it's really not taking on any more smoke, so don't worry too much about it.

I've only cooked two briskets, one 13lbs full packer on my BGE, one teeny-tiny 1.1lbs piece of flat on a WSM. Both of mine were good as far as flavor, had a nice smoke ring (which I know has nothing to do with flavor, but it is pretty!), but both I underestimated how long they would take to cook, and I should have let them cook longer. They were both a little dry. I'm still figuring out brisket myself.

The packer ::