Poll Regarding Comment Cards - Please Vote

[swamprb]

I just don't think there is enough time to give informative responses to every entry with half hour turn ins. And if a Rep does collect and notice a BS score, its probably way too late to change it or talk to the judge.

 

[EatonHoggBBQ]

That was not the question, does your bias for more meat meat in a box effect your judging of the box?

I know when I see a very full box, I have to check myself because I do have a bias and say there in no reason to score down for this, its not Rocket Science, but I think many just blow their biases off and score the way they want and not the way they are trained.

How can your score be subjective then?

 

[Lake Dogs]

I just don't think there is enough time to give informative responses to every entry with half hour turn ins. And if a Rep does collect and notice a BS score, its probably way too late to change it or talk to the judge.

Swamprb, you've hit on another thing that's key. In addition to judge
training (said earlier, the current system really isnt about training so much
as it is about recruiting membership), quality of judging and consistency,
there's the 30 minute turn in, which is rushing the whole process quite
a bit, IMHO. Other sanctioning bodies use a 1 hour turn in for the exact
reason you describe. Score cards are reviewed BEFORE the judge walks
away. Inconsistencies are questioned and corrected if need be. For
that matter, the simple checking to make sure a score is readable.

It's not fair to the guys who have put up the money and the time and
the effort to let it get crazy.

When judging I've always considered it a privilege to be able to sample
BBQ and judge it. Anything less would be an insult to the competitor.
Frankly, IMHO, the competitors deserve the judges opinion regardless
of the score, meaning on everything. Even if the feedback is meaningless,
that's really up to the competitor to determine.

The argument that if 1 of the 6 judges slams you and says (as an example)
that it was too salty doesn't hold water as a counter argument to needing
feedback. It is an argument for quality of judge training, and perhaps a
lesson in not reading too much into any one set of scores. However, to
say that they're all meaningless because of a few nit wits is wrong.

Just my humble opinion, from a judge and competitor.

 

[Sawdustguy]

I just don't think there is enough time to give informative responses to every entry with half hour turn ins. And if a Rep does collect and notice a BS score, its probably way too late to change it or talk to the judge.

+1 I never understood the 1/2 hour between turn-ins. I can't for the life of me understand why turn-in's couldn't start at 11:00 AM and go to 2:00 PM allowing for an entry per hour.

ie: for KCBS

11:00 AM Chicken
12:00 Noon Ribs
1:00 PM Pork
2:00 PM Brisket

 

[Divemaster]

That was not the question, does your bias for more meat meat in a box effect your judging of the box?

I know when I see a very full box, I have to check myself because I do have a bias and say there in no reason to score down for this, its not Rocket Science, but I think many just blow their biases off and score the way they want and not the way they are trained.

First of all, I don't judge often at all. Once a year, maybe. I'm a cook who took the class to insure that I was doing every thing legal, so I really don't have a bias when judging.

Now having said that, when I'm putting 11 or 12 bones in a box, I'm looking at it strictly from an appearance point of view. When I used to look at our box with only 6 ribs, it always seemed light weight, missing something, only half done, almost like I was afraid to give them more. When I now look at our box when it's full, I see something that I can be proud of. A box that says that I've done the best that I can. Take any bone you want because they are all up to my standards.

On another note, with more meat, I think that the judges have less of an opportunity to look at the garnish. After all, this is a meat contest, why not give them a bunch of meat to review and judge?

I have never understood how a restaurant can get away with putting a quarter sized piece of something on a 12 inch plate and say that it looks appetizing. It's almost like looking at a 50 foot flag poll that has a small flag on it. It just seems like they were just going through the motions.

 

[G$]

p.s. We don't use soda on anything :crazy:

I understand.

"It" referred to the feedback, not the soda.

 

[Bentley]

How can your score be subjective then?

Certified Barbeque Judge's Oath

I do solemnly swear to objectively and subjectively evaluate each Barbeque meat that is presented to my eyes, my nose, my hands and my palate. I accept my duty to be an Official KCBS Certified Judge, so that truth, justice, excellence in Barbeque and the American Way of Life may be strengthened and preserved forever.

Good question, but I am to be subjective (which I have a problem with) and objective. KCBS wants both, but they are now going to tell me that they if I am off from my other judge's I am going to be subject to review and if I do it again, I need to go to a re-education camp.

Can't have it both ways.

I am curious, do you believe I should judge the box down if I think it is to full?

 

[Stoke&Smoke]

Look at rule 17(h), which says:

"Meat that is cooked, properly cooled (see 17(g)), and later reheated for hot holding and serving shall be reheated so that all parts of the food reach a temperature of at least 165º F for a minimum of 15 seconds."

IN MY OPINION, this means that if you finish your brisket or pork off early it should be reheated to proper temperature before serving to judges. Pork should, of course, be heated in its entirety and not parted.

-------------

The above is my opinion only and not reflective of KCBS or anyone else.

I agree CS, which is why I made the point. And the meat I'm referring to wasn't cold as in room temp. It was in mid July, the temp was well into the 80's, and this meat was cold like it was just taken out of the refrigerator

We got a card back in 09 that said the ribs tased like lighter fluid:tsk: I only use MAAP gas to light my cookers. I don't own any lighter fluid!

 

[Mister Bob]

+1 I never understood the 1/2 hour between turn-ins. I can't for the life of me understand why turn-in's couldn't start at 11:00 AM and go to 2:00 PM allowing for an entry per hour.

ie: for KCBS

11:00 AM Chicken
12:00 Noon Ribs
1:00 PM Pork
2:00 PM Brisket

I agree 100%

BBQ should be fun, not stressful.
Comps would be so much more enjoyable, and the overall quality of the entries would improve if there was an hour between turn-ins.

It would help the 'one man' teams compete with the four and six man teams, and have the best BBQ, not the resources at a competitor's disposal, win the day!

 

[lunchlady]

how does 'too full' or 'too empty' work into an appearance score? Or symmetry?

The way I learned it, CBJ#7705, it was about the appearance OF THE MEAT, no matter how much or how little is in the box.
When teams first starting putting only the MM in the pork box, there was only 6 little pieces in many boxes. When I judged those, I judged the meat, not the empty space around the meat.

And I get it... the appearance of the whole box, blah blah blah... but thats not the way its taught.

 

[EatonHoggBBQ]

Certified Barbeque Judge's Oath

I do solemnly swear to objectively and subjectively evaluate each Barbeque meat that is presented to my eyes, my nose, my hands and my palate. I accept my duty to be an Official KCBS Certified Judge, so that truth, justice, excellence in Barbeque and the American Way of Life may be strengthened and preserved forever.

Good question, but I am to be subjective (which I have a problem with) and objective. KCBS wants both, but they are now going to tell me that they if I am off from my other judge's I am going to be subject to review and if I do it again, I need to go to a re-education camp.

Can't have it both ways.

I am curious, do you believe I should judge the box down if I think it is to full?

Do I believe you should judge the box down. What I believe is that you should judge according to KCBS standards.

 

[Bentley]

We agree then, and I do.

 

[Divemaster]

how does 'too full' or 'too empty' work into an appearance score? Or symmetry?

The way I learned it, CBJ#7705, it was about the appearance OF THE MEAT, no matter how much or how little is in the box.
When teams first starting putting only the MM in the pork box, there was only 6 little pieces in many boxes. When I judged those, I judged the meat, not the empty space around the meat.

And I get it... the appearance of the whole box, blah blah blah... but thats not the way its taught.

The way I was taught was that you judge the overall appearance of the meat in the box. If there are only six portions, you judge those six. If there is more, you judge what is there. I also recall the statement of “If it (the meat) makes you want to reach out and grab it, it should probably be scored higher.” (I think it was MikeLake who told me that.)

I just happen to think, and it’s only my opinion, that a full box of meat simply looks more inviting than one with only the bare minimum.

Secondary to the appearance, it’s my opinion that the more meat you have in a box, the better chance you have of keeping at least some of the warmth in the product and therefore making it more appealing to the judges taste buds. Again, this is only my opinion.

On Edit:

Do I believe you should judge the box down. What I believe is that you should judge according to KCBS standards.

Duplicate

How can you judge a box down for being ‘to full’ when according to the rules that we are to be judged using state:

16) Each contestant must submit at least six (6) portions
of meat in an approved container. Chicken, pork and
brisket may be submitted chopped, pulled, sliced, or diced
as the cook sees fit, as long as there is enough for six (6)
judges.
​

Sorry, but I don’t see any “Maximum” amount of meat that is allowed in a box. Only a minimum.

 

[Smokedelic]

I am curious, do you believe I should judge the box down if I think it is to full?

I don't know who taught your CBJ class, but there was nothing taught in my CBJ class about judging the quantity of the meat in the box.

How was it taught to you in your CBJ class? Were you given examples of boxes that were too full or to empty?

 

[Bentley]

“If it (the meat) makes you want to reach out and grab it, it should probably be scored higher.” (I think it was MikeLake who told me that.)

I just happen to think, and it’s only my opinion, that a full box of meat simply looks more inviting than one with only the bare minimum.

On Edit:

How can you judge a box down for being ‘to full’ when according to the rules that we are to be judged using state:

16) Each contestant must submit at least six (6) portions
of meat in an approved container. Chicken, pork and
brisket may be submitted chopped, pulled, sliced, or diced
as the cook sees fit, as long as there is enough for six (6)
judges.
​

Sorry, but I don’t see any “Maximum” amount of meat that is allowed in a box. Only a minimum.

I have always found that statement silly, I have had some of the greatest tasting BBQ at competitions and it may have gotten a low apperance score.

And I happen to think that a box with less meat in it is more appealing...Who is right? I did not say I judged down for a lot of meat in the turn in box, I said I had a bias that I did not like a lot of meat in the container and that I had to check that thinking when I judge.

I don't know who taught your CBJ class, but there was nothing taught in my CBJ class about judging the quantity of the meat in the box.

How was it taught to you in your CBJ class? Were you given examples of boxes that were too full or to empty?

Well let me tell you who taught my CBJ class it was Ed Roith and it was at the 2003 American Royal. Ed did not teach that you judge down for the amount of food in the turn in box...See above for remaing comments...

Folks sometimes need to read with a little less red in their eys before they go and try and para phrase people...

 

[EatonHoggBBQ]

How can you judge a box down for being ‘to full’ when according to the rules that we are to be judged using state:

16) Each contestant must submit at least six (6) portions
of meat in an approved container. Chicken, pork and
brisket may be submitted chopped, pulled, sliced, or diced
as the cook sees fit, as long as there is enough for six (6)
judges.
​

Sorry, but I don’t see any “Maximum” amount of meat that is allowed in a box. Only a minimum.

I'm not suggesting to judge it down, just saying use KCBS standards.

Appearance of an entry is judged objectively and subjectively.

Objectively: illegal garnish, foreign objects, sculptured meat, marked turn in container, pooled sauce, incorrect samples, and less than six identifiable pieces.

Subjectively: the judges personal opinion

Comment cards may reflect the unpopular subjective side of the judges score.

 

[Bentley]

how does 'too full' or 'too empty' work into an appearance score? Or symmetry?

it was about the appearance OF THE MEAT, no matter how much or how little is in the box.

Bingo!

Exactlly right, but I sure see a lot of folks on this site comment that the box needs more meat in it, and most are CBJ's...Sorry, whether you wanna be honest with yourself or not that is a bias, just hope they will over come that bias when they judge...or, is that the subjective part I am supposed to take into consideration when I judge...if so dont track me when I judge...That's BS! One way or the other KCBS!

 

[Divemaster]

I have always found that statement silly, I have had some of the greatest tasting BBQ at competitions and it may have gotten a low apperance score.

I'm sorry, and what statement would that be? That there is only a minimum required?

And I happen to think that a box with less meat in it is more appealing...Who is right? I did not say I judged down for a lot of meat in the turn in box, I said I had a bias that I did not like a lot of meat in the container and that I had to check that thinking when I judge.

No one is saying that you are wrong for your preferances. Is this what others are calling the "KCBS Standard"? If so, why isn't this "Standard" passed on to the judging classes?

Well let me tell you who taught my CBJ class it was Ed Roith and it was at the 2003 American Royal. Ed did not teach that you judge down for the amount of food in the turn in box...See above for remaing comments...

Ed and I have talked at length regarding a number of issues with judging, including statements accusing any cook that could obtain a smoke ring around a money muscile of cheating by removing it and cooking it separately. I’m sure that he taught a fine class. He is also one of the proponents of taking a refresher class for free. Not to be a smart a$$, but have you availed yourself of this opportunity?

I'm not suggesting to judge it down, just saying use KCBS standards.

What is this mysterious ‘KCBS Standard’ I keep hearing about? Who created it and when? What the heck is it? Is this another thing that the cooks should simply guess about? Is there a secret handshake too?

Appearance of an entry is judged objectively and subjectively.

Objectively: illegal garnish, foreign objects, sculptured meat, marked turn in container, pooled sauce, incorrect samples, and less than six identifiable pieces.

Subjectively: the judges personal opinion

Comment cards may reflect the unpopular subjective side of the judges score.

If the judge is honest with the comment card and states that they don’t like large quantities of meat in the box, that’s fine with me. If I get enough of them I’ll go back to my old ways. But until I do, I’ll keep doing what seems to be working for us.

Exactlly right, but I sure see a lot of folks on this site comment that the box needs more meat in it, and most are CBJ's...

Yes, there are a number of people that feel that more meat is more appealing than less meat. I’m guilty of that. I’m passing on something that works for me. Is it wrong? I don’t think so. You have the same opportunity to state what you feel. No one is stopping you from expressing your feelings on the subject.

Sorry, whether you wanna be honest with yourself or not that is a bias, just hope they will over come that bias when they judge...or, is that the subjective part I am supposed to take into consideration when I judge...if so dont track me when I judge...That's BS!

I guess that would be the ‘Subjective’ portion of your score. If you feel that the appearance isn’t there because there is too much meat, then you have the responsibility to give a lower score. Just as another judge who feels that there isn’t enough meat in a box has the same responsibility to give a lower score.

One way or the other KCBS!

If the ‘One way’ you talk about is a defined amount of meat allowed in a container, then you are going to have to get the rules changed. Until that point, I’ll continue to do what I feel is best and until I start getting comment cards that there is too much meat in my boxes, I’ll keep filling them up.

 

[Bentley]

I'm sorry, and what statement would that be? That there is only a minimum required

Not to be a smart a$$, but have you availed yourself of this opportunity?

What is this mysterious ‘KCBS Standard’ I keep hearing about? Who created it and when? What the heck is it? Is this another thing that the cooks should simply guess about? Is there a secret handshake too?

I guess that would be the ‘Subjective’ portion of your score. If you feel that the appearance isn’t there because there is too much meat, then you have the responsibility to give a lower score. Just as another judge who feels that there isn’t enough meat in a box has the same responsibility to give a lower score.

The statement to paraphrase that we eat with our eyes first, I have never believe in that, kind of like judging a book by its cover. It tends to lead to biases in my opinion that a less trained judge may carry over from the appearance score to the taste score.


No offence taken, it is a valid question. The last class we had in my area was 2 hours away in San Diego and I was asked to cook for it. However, unless the CBJ class is teaching different standards then what Ed taught in 2003, I am not sure what benefit I would gain from retaking the class. That is why I would like to see some CE for judges…If you are not willing to pay the money to stay current, stop judging KCBS events.


I wish there was more objective standards and less subjective.

I could not disagree more with your comment about amounts. If you are allowing the amount of meat in the container to bias you’re judging, you are 100% wrong, accord to me and according to “KCBS Standards” and that I hope you will try and address before you sit at a table and judge again. That is the ‘subjective” nature that has no place in KCBS judging.

 

[Divemaster]

The statement to paraphrase that we eat with our eyes first, I have never believe in that, kind of like judging a book by its cover. It tends to lead to biases in my opinion that a less trained judge may carry over from the appearance score to the taste score.

This is going to have to be an area that we agree to disagree… I have seen many dishes that just turned my stomach before I took a bite… and many more that turned my stomach after…. lol

No offence taken, it is a valid question. The last class we had in my area was 2 hours away in San Diego and I was asked to cook for it. However, unless the CBJ class is teaching different standards then what Ed taught in 2003, I am not sure what benefit I would gain from retaking the class. That is why I would like to see some CE for judges…If you are not willing to pay the money to stay current, stop judging KCBS events.

I agree that there should be some required CE for judges. My thoughts would be something along the lines of an online CE every two years and a physical class every fourth.

I really think that there is information that is being passed to new CBJ’s that was not available even just a few years ago. That’s one of the benefits of retaking the classes and from what I understand, current CBJ’s do not have to pay for the class.

I wish there was more objective standards and less subjective.

As a cook I couldn’t agree with you more. It is far easier to aim for a hard and fast standard than a subjective view point.

I could not disagree more with your comment about amounts. If you are allowing the amount of meat in the container to bias you’re judging, you are 100% wrong, accord to me and according to “KCBS Standards” and that I hope you will try and address before you sit at a table and judge again.

Again, not to sound like an a$$, but I think that this very point is where a refresher class may come in handy for both of us. I think the way appearance scoring was described to you and the way it was described to me is very different.

I am planning on attending the Judging meeting this weekend in Kansas City. I know that there are a number of hot topics that are going to be brought up and continuing education is one that I’m pushing for.

That is the ‘subjective” nature that has no place in KCBS judging.

I really don’t know how you are going to remove the ‘subjective nature’ without removing the judges and replace them with computers…