Contest Results Lakeland Results

[dbaldin]

After some hesitation, I decided to post on this thread. I watched the videos and what I saw was a lack of discretion, and more significantly, a bigger question: Do cameras do more harm than good? This question affects me because of the live webcasting ability of WiredBBQ. Do I do more harm than good?

I think that's a new thread that I want to start after I post this. But for now, with these particular videos, I have this to say: A) Tuffy should not have been strung along and made to believe his box was accepted. It should have been an immediate decision; B) the person behind the camera should not have started counting down the seconds. His job(?) is to capture the event, not participate in the event.

So the dilemma is, with the camera there, rules were maintained, OR without a camera there, a "favorite" could have possibly won it all.

Personally, I think the jackass that posted the videos didn't do himself, or Tuffy any favors. But I think he did expose a problem that seems to be developing into a theme recently in regards to the use of cameras and tact.

 

[Pig Headed]

Interesting observation. Indeed worthy of a new topic. I do believe that the presence of the video had a bearing on the outcome of this situation whether intended or not. That doesn't excuse the 40 minute delay delay of notifying a team of the DQ though or why the decision apparently was changed. CYA? yes I think so.

 

[Fishiest1]

Congrats Ford! Very good showing!

 

[Jorge]

Jorge. Is Bunny stating something that is not true, or just something that you do not agree with? (Honest question)

Yesterday I was shaking off the end of a 48 hr. virus, or a light dose of the flu....

The following is my understanding as of yesterday, and I'm going to try to get the FACTS today...

The rule used to be that your box would NOT be accepted if you missed the window, leading to the walk of shame that others have mentioned. Bunny is saying that they will now accept the box, and score it a 1. My recollection is this change was made a year or two ago, to deal with the 15th, 25th, or 50th team missing a window and removing that contest from the Jack draw.

From the two videos that I saw, Tuffy appeared to be late (but as Steve pointed out we can't see enough to know what if anything happened outside the view of the camera). Watching the second video, it's pretty clear to me that Tuffy either wasn't DQ'd at the table or he wasn't told that he'd been DQ'd. The clock was face down, and the box was still in hand. There is hesitation from both people visible at the table before Tuffy was given the nod to turn the box in.

I've seen people arrive just outside the window, and they have ALWAYS been told that they were late "I'm sorry...", etc... I've played that video through the home theater system, and can't hear anything indicating a DQ.

I understand what Bunny is saying, and others have made great arguments from the other side. I tend to agree with the latter. As I said initially, the important issue here is a lot larger than Tuffy getting a DQ in brisket. KCBS sells a contest administration package for lack of a better term. That includes judging, scoring, rules enforcement, etc... The benefit to teams and organizers is the security in knowing that the contest will be fair to all parties. The video that is public, and the way this was allegedly handled calls that into question. I think that's reason enough for folks to be concerned, and interested enough to get a clear and timely explanation from the BoD. The incident is now public, and in my opinion, the results of the investigation as well as any remedies need to be public as well.

 

[drbbq]

Personally, I think the jackass that posted the videos didn't do himself, or Tuffy any favors. But I think he did expose a problem that seems to be developing into a theme recently in regards to the use of cameras and tact.

So do you think he should have just kept the video to himself?

 

[G$]

If KCBS sells a "rules package & enforcement", did they end up getting it "right"?

IF (big if) we assume we agree the box was late, would you rather the "right" ruling not be enforced at the end of the day, just because it is painful and heartbreaking for those involved?

I have to be frank Jorge: I am not sure your opinion is consistent.

If a team turned in pork, only to discover after turn in that they parted it before cooking, would you advocate letting the turn in stand because it was originally accepted on good faith?

What if that team had only one call that contest? What if they were not aware that they violated the parting rule? Would that change your ruling?

General observation: There is a real contradiction that a lot of folks want KCBS to first and foremost uphold the rules, but also think the rules are overcomplicated, too rigid, and un-necessary.

 

[drbbq]

I think that's reason enough for folks to be concerned, and interested enough to get a clear and timely explanation from the BoD. The incident is now public, and in my opinion, the results of the investigation as well as any remedies need to be public as well.

Let's not forget that this is the long time Executive Director of a non-profit organization. In the real world she would be in serious jeopardy. But in the KCBS world I suspect she will come out of this as the martyr.

 

[DawgPhan]

Does anyone think they got the call wrong? That Tuffy should have been considered "on-time"? Looks like he was late and they called it as such...looks case closed to me.

 

[goodbuddiesbbq]

I knew I would open my mouth...

Congrats to Cereal Grillers and Hambones by the Fire...you beat an extremely talented field. To Jimmy Brod...congrats...that Governors Cup was almost more important to us than GC itself would have been. When they called that you should have heard the terrible things I said about you inside my head:tsk:...another good showing at Lakeland, you may have to move from Sebring and call that home.

Tuffy had the best stuff this weekend...not in question. I was steaming at our camp upset about getting 3 calls and our chicken (we thought was great) get hammered and cost us a real shot at GC, when I saw Tuffy walk back to camp with his 3 trophies. The guy is a professional and even when congratulated by people who were unaware of his DQ at the time and continued to "thank" them all the way back to his site. As a competitor I know it ate at him each time he had to thank people, but he still did, without a single comment about how he was robbed or anything negative. The guy is a pro! He is a great guy and you don't have to know him to see that.

However, don't feel too bad for Tuffy for too long...he'll be in your neck of the woods very soon taking all of the prize money. The guy is a champion. After he gets to the Georgia border he'll probably start dog cussing a little bit, but he will be tearing it up again his next time out.

Cameras...they are good for this hobby/sport in my opinion. Look how many people are itching for results within minutes of award shows. If you don't want them in your camp, don't let them in. I feel they are a great way to let people see people that they are talking to each day on these forums. I had to watch the tape a few times. First to confirm that Dan (our turnin guy) did actually walk our box all the way with his Red Stripe gripped in his teeth. I guess that we still aren't ready for the box carrying case if that is how we turn a category in. Maybe he dropped one on our chicken...I'll go with that.

Second, to see the call heard round the bbq world. It's terrible and hard to watch...I felt like I had to minimize my window when my wife was in the room, like I was looking at something I shouldn't be. However, despite the effort (Tuffy stretching for the finish line and almost taking out the entire table) and how the decision was made...they didn't score the box as being "truly accepted". Justice prevailed, hearts were broken, weather was still perfect.

I thought my brother made a 3500 dollar mistake in Plant City by leaving his 5th and 6th rib connected, but Tuffy may have just topped the list. Not trying to pile on...just saying these things are happening all of the time and if not for that camera...we wouldn't have bbq gold to show Tuffy on our cell phones for years to come.

Sorry Tuffy...that's brutal, but I hope you would feel the same way. If nothing else, you will have a new KCBS rule named after you. You will be immortalized forever, like George Brett,

KCBS Rule 9.4.1.9: The Tuffy Exception
If a particpant lays a box in front of rep with the time being past acceptable time, it will be DQ'd. Participants puppy dog eyes and exhausted expressions shall not be viewed as cute. This is especially crucial for friends, grandparents, small children and drunks. They are all masters of their craft and do not negotiate with them...they all have been classically trained not to return to camp with a box.

As for the rep...it didn't look great and I'm sure she went around the corner and got a second opinion from another rep or similar and made the final call. I feel more sorry for her than anybody. She had to make that brutal call, she was not in thinking a participant is about to rhino (maybe gazelle) around the corner into this 8x8 room and tackle the table. Probably caught off guard as anybody would have been from watching the video.

The right team won this event. Cereal Grillers had the best score within all of the rules that we play by. No exceptions!

However, Whiskey Bent BBQ had the best food...the judges don't know what good chicken taste like...AGAIN!

Shake it off Tuffy and get out of Florida...with scores like the first three we don't want you down here anymore. Took all the prize money, trophies, beer and almost broke our turn-in facilities.:becky::becky::becky:

Must add smiley faces so that I don't get threats.

 

[Jorge]

If KCBS sells a "rules package & enforcement", did they end up getting it "right"?

IF (big if) we assume we agree the box was late, would you rather the "right" ruling not be enforced at the end of the day, just because it is painful and heartbreaking for those involved?

I have to be frank Jorge: I am not sure your opinion is consistent.

If a team turned in pork, only to discover after turn in that they parted it before cooking, would you advocate letting the turn in stand because it was originally accepted on good faith?

What if that team had only one call that contest? What if they were not aware that they violated the parting rule? Would that change your ruling?

General observation: There is a real contradiction that a lot of folks want KCBS to first and foremost uphold the rules, but also think the rules are overcomplicated, too rigid, and un-necessary.

Let me clear my desk, and I'll be happy to PM my cell # if you like, and we can both save a lot of time.

 

[ThomEmery]

If the rule on late boxes is "take it and give the team ones" there is no problem
correct?

 

[Jorge]

If anybody has some first hand knowledge of a DQ for being late, with at least one KCBS Rep present, and not being told that they were DQ'd for being late I'd love to hear it.

 

[Ford]

Tuffy had the best stuff this weekend...not in question. I was steaming at our camp upset about getting 3 calls and our chicken (we thought was great) get hammered and cost us a real shot at GC, when I saw Tuffy walk back to camp with his 3 trophies. The guy is a professional and even when congratulated by people who were unaware of his DQ at the time and continued to "thank" them all the way back to his site. As a competitor I know it ate at him each time he had to thank people, but he still did, without a single comment about how he was robbed or anything negative. The guy is a pro! He is a great guy and you don't have to know him to see that.

Know exactly how you feel. I was 3rd chicken, 5th ribs and 13th in pork and had a 149 score in Brisket. Now I knew it wasn't great but thought it was OK. That's how this sport goes.

And I totally agree with your read on Tuffy. Class act all the time and great guy. But he admits he pushes the window some times on Brisket. I remember him yelling RUN on one of the TLC shows.

 

[drbbq]

How about a statement from Carolyn on the KCBS website? That would clear everything up. And it would be even better if she was hooked up to a lie detector.

 

[Smoke'n Ice]

It appears, from post concerning this weekend that the inconsistent judging issues faced by all may, in part, be caused by inconsistent reps and it is from the top down.

Two (2) of the published rep advisories, 4.52 Turn in Time and 4.36 DQing an Entry, were either ignored, misapplied or unknown by part of the rep team. In addition, another rep team that has posted to defend some of the mistakes are also unaware of rep advisory 4.52 Turn in Time.

What I would like to know from the board is, do they plan on following their own rules for disciplining or will it just be ignored?

 

[Ford]

Actual Rep advisory wording

6.36 Subject: DQing an Entry​

Question: Should I wait until the judging is over to notify a team that they have been disqualified
(DQ’ed)?​

Opinion: A Rep MUST IMMEDIATELY notify the team that their entry has been disqualified and
why. In all but rare circumstances the Rep should carry the 9 x 9 Styrofoam container out to the
team as evidence. However, the team should be advised the product shown will not be returned as it
can not be resubmitted. This disqualification does not mean a fresh entry can not be turned in during
subsequent categories. Thus, a newly numbered Styrofoam should be delivered if applicable. This
task should only be carried out by the KCBS Rep and not assigned to the Contest Organizer or
volunteer.
NOTE: This may not be practical to execute in a very large contest (American Royal, Lenexa, Great
American), and depends on the workload of the Contest Reps.​

February 17, 2006, amended April 9, 2008

Red is my highlighting below.

6.52 Subject: Turn in Time​

Question: Is it permissible for a rep to use their discretion in accepting a late entry?​

Opinion: While we all want to be kind and use our judgment, the rule for turn in time is clear and
not subject to variation. The rule states: "The allowable turnin
time will be five (5) minutes before
to five (5) minutes after the posted time with​

no tolerance. Late entries will not be accepted.”
There shall be no variance. Violation of the rule is ground for discipline of the Contest Rep team.
Thus, when the 5 appears, no turn in will be allowed unless the entry was in line. It is a good
practice to show the clock to any late entry immediately to prevent any issue as to the time on the​

official clock.

 

[ique]

Shhhh you'll get all of our reps fired again with no explanation given.:doh:

Or maybe our Reps should offer a little refresher course on the rules for those in other parts of the country.

 

[Big George's BBQ]

Congrats to all who walked
Too bad about Tuffy

 

[dbaldin]

So do you think he should have just kept the video to himself?

Not necessarily. But the intent of posting of those particular videos seems odd. The 1st is titled "Competitor Gets Disqualified" but that is clearly not what happens in the video. The 2nd is titled "Tuffy Would Have Won", which, taken with the interviewer's comments that they should have accepted the entry, indicates he had a strong bias. What is funny here is that had he not been taping it, they probably would have accepted the box, so he basically shot himself in the foot. I guess my problem with them is, IMHO, that they were posted to show how the Mean Ol' KCBS stole a win away from someone he liked. It doesn't seem like he even considered the ramifications of catching what he did on tape, which was more significant, that a Rep gave an OK to accept a late entry.

Regardless, they are important in what they show.

 

[Rick Hamilton]

How about this thread be about what it should be about? Congratulating Serial Grillers on a great win. Mark and Moses cook their arses off and came in as Grand Champs.

Congratulations guys!