Is all temperature the same regardless of smoker used ?

[Norcoredneck]

Why does a Cajun Microwave/La Caja China cook large hunks of meat so fast? No convection/airflow.

 

[Psyco Realm]

I guess we could throw in some other varibles
a) meat packaged in a solution
b) tender quick
c) to brine w/kosher salt

 

[Norcoredneck]

Now I don't know how this translates to cookers but In my job I run thermal vacuum chambers. We control temp on the inside through shrouds . There is no actual air movement in the chamber (vacuum) only radiation. In the units we use to transition the shrouds air density makes a huge difference in how fast something transitions. The TCU's (temperature control units) use rod type heaters and inject LN2 (liquid nitrogen) to cool. All this circulates in a closed loop. If I set a temp that a PID controls the temp I can speed this transition rate by changing pressure. Higher pressure on hotter temps lower pressure on lower temps works best.

 

[Muzzlebrake]

225 is 225 is 225. the temperature is the same in any cooker as long as you are using the same or calibrated thermometers it has to be the same, just as a pound of feathers is the same as a pound of lead.

But just as the pound of lead and pound of feathers have different characteristics so do cookers, mainly convection or airflow, reflection and humidity retention, and it is these that I think make the difference in the times needed to cook the same thing.

 

[MilitantSquatter]

I love these discussions.. Thanks for all those that have chimed it so far.

So.. we've noted above that foiled appears to make meat cooks quicker.. As I think of this, all I can gather is that since there is steam, steam is hotter than boiling liquid as more energy is required to change it's form.. I don't know if that's true.

on the flip side, it was noted that less water cooks faster as water acts as a heat sink..

These are opposite views..

While there might be science to back it up and clearly disprove this to small time variances, I'm sticking with 225 is 225 like Muz noted (all other factors being equal like outside temp, proper airflow, rub, injection etc.) in that it will all be relatively close enough that it really should be negligible in planning timelines etc.

I've just not experienced this where I can cook a butt, brisket in 12-14 hrs and 11 in another or spares in 5-6 and 3-4 in another at the exact same temp where the meat is resting..

 

[drbowden]

external pressure makes a difference as well

foiling also changes the external pressure surrounding the meat being cooked; just as a pressure cooker is faster without changing the external temperature applied, so does foiled or any other surrounded meat cook faster. The extent that the surrounding holds pressure will affect the cooking time because the effective rate of cooking at the meat will be different.

just my 0.02 worth from an engineer!

 

[Muzzlebrake]

I think that foiling and cookers like the the La Caja China cooking faster has more to do with reflection of the heat in close proximity to the meat much like a fire feels hotter the closer you hold your hand to it or the way reflective surfaces are used to reflect maximize the energy given off by lighting. Meat in foil is going to cook faster @ 225 much as lining your walls foil will make a 100 watt bulb light up a room more

 

[Midnight Smoke]

Now I don't know how this translates to cookers but In my job I run thermal vacuum chambers. We control temp on the inside through shrouds . There is no actual air movement in the chamber (vacuum) only radiation. In the units we use to transition the shrouds air density makes a huge difference in how fast something transitions. The TCU's (temperature control units) use rod type heaters and inject LN2 (liquid nitrogen) to cool. All this circulates in a closed loop. If I set a temp that a PID controls the temp I can speed this transition rate by changing pressure. Higher pressure on hotter temps lower pressure on lower temps works best.

Same principle as a Pressure Cooker?

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

I believe that some of the effect is due to smoke temp and the heat radiated from the hot baffle. the water pan is a cool heat sink stopping the radiated heat. foiled meat heats faster because the moisture is trapped, evaporating moisture cools the meat much like perspiration cools your bod on a hot day. high humidity (steam ) should cook faster if your water pan is not between the heat source and the meat blocking the radiant heat.

Over live coals.

I'm just saying.

 

[HoDeDo]

Pressure (or vacuum) definately make a difference...

vinny... once that pan in the spice pit goes dry, it gives off infrared heat, that intensifies cooking.

a good example is the 'Big Easy' turkey cooker... it utilizes infrared heat from the sides of the chamber to 'fry' (really a high speed roasting) the turkey.

 

[sfbbqguy]

I know you said "two identical cuts of meat" and all the above discussion makes sense but wouldn't the actual meat make a differnce. More or less fat, stronger or weaker connective tissues...old chicken, young chicken?
I'm ask'n not say'n.

 

[Muzzlebrake]

would the La Caja China have more pressure in the cooking chamber, aren't they kind of sealed?

 

[MilitantSquatter]

vinny... once that pan in the spice pit goes dry, it gives off infrared heat, that intensifies cooking.

Sure.. but if the heat at the exact spot where the meat is, is still at 225, I never experienced the Spicewine cooking ribs any faster waterless, than I did with an offset, WSM, BGE etc.. All take around the roughly same time when you look at all the cooks collectively and remove the exceptions that could be influenced by other factors.

I know you said "two identical cuts of meat" and all the above discussion makes sense but wouldn't the actual meat make a differnce. More or less fat, stronger or weaker connective tissues...old chicken, young chicken?
I'm ask'n not say'n.

Sure it would.. just trying to remove the variables for discussion. I just think that while some time differences may exist, I think they are minimal yet we often read here or people discuss at contests etc. that a certain cooker cooks "fast" yet the basis for this is more often than not subjective/speculation as to why it may be.

 

[ZILLA]

Not having read any prior posts I say that different cooker will cook faster depending on draw and the velocity of the flow of heat through the cooker. The faster the air flow the more like a convection oven it is. So I say yes. I figure a heavy offset properly built will cook the fastest at a given temp.

 

[MilitantSquatter]

I nominate Phil to experiment for our benefit..

He's got the Spicebox, FEC, BGE, WSM, Klose and Bandera readily available in his yard.

:biggrin:

 

[jagardn]

More or less moisture cooks faster in your opinion ?

I would think that there is a big difference if the water is a liquid or a gas. Liquid in a pan acts as a heat sink and drops the internal temperature. If it is a gas it will probably cook faster, transfer of heat is much more efficient because of the density of H2O in relation to air. Its hard to tell, if the steam cooks it faster and the water in the pan lowers the temp...is it a wash?

 

[Mo-Dave]

I nominate Phil to experiment for our benefit..

He's got the Spicebox, FEC, BGE, WSM, Klose and Bandera readily available in his yard.

:biggrin:

Ok all things being equal except cookers, 225 is still 225. So if the ambient temperature surrounding the meat of the same exact size and density without any spikes and dips in temperature what so ever, then the meat should be done at the exact same time, no matter moisture, air flow or cooker size. But since none of these can be duplicated precisely then the outcome will vary.

If foil is used on both then the outcome should still be the same all be it faster not because of the steam but because less heat is radiating away at a faster rate from the meat making it stay at 225 closer to the meat longer than if not foiled as the heat will radiate away faster from the naked meat. This could make a difference between a small wsm and a large spicewine if heat can not be controlled surrounding the meat at a constant rate.

My spice and my uds are the fastest smokers I have ever used but my house oven will always cook faster at the same temp because the heat is usually better controlled.
Dave

 

[JiveTurkey]

If you want something smoked faster it has to be cooked in a RED Weber! Haha!

 

[UNTSIG]

I think it depends on whether or not you have MSG in your rub...:wink:

But seriously, this is a great discussion!:eusa_clap

 

[Norcoredneck]

Ok now at work. In a chamber like I had discussed To transition a unit in vacuum takes a lot more. The driving source, shrouds in this case can only radiate to the mass. I can tell you I have seen different surfaces react totally different to temperature change. We wrap or blanket units with a blanket materials. If you use this blanket one side gold one side shiny aluminum you will get different temps (actually aluminum mylar/kapton mylar. I asked a thermal geek once and he started talking way over my head. He told me to research Emissivity. Anyhow. In a chamber we actually run "Full Cold" or LN2 temp (roughly -320 degrees F). When we warm up we warm to dewpoint (because moisture is death to electronics in space) then do a "Throughput" where we introduce ambient gaseous nitrogen and contine to pump chamber, Sort of draft. things deffinately transition a lot faster.

So with this in mind I would agree that good temp controlled airflow is a benefit. I believe as slight as a pressure diferential there is also affects transition rates. Take convection ovens, you are moving controled air and anytime a fan is used it creates pressure. I believe one could say that pressure is why water boils better or faster at lower altitudes.

All this is just thinking out loud and sharing what I have see. We need Alton Brown or Bill Nye the Science guy on this.