BBQ gear from E-Bay merchant

[Grillman]

I always wait until the last minute or two of an auction to place my bid. That way the seller (or his buddy) doesn't have a chance to come in and bid the price up. I know sellers that do that stuff. It's not cool.

I use my digital timer and start it when an auction gets down to the
5 minute mark. I keep refreshing the page to make sure the price is still
in my range...and when the timer gets down to 15 seconds left for the
auction; then I enter my bid.

I never bid until the last 15 seconds of the auction...I think it helps keep
the price down as low as possible, for me to buy.

 

[markrvp]

I use e-snipe to submit my bid within the last 10 seconds. It never benefits you to place a bid early... it just gives other people motivation to increase the final sales price.

 

[1FUNVET]

I agree with Grillman. I bid at the price i'm willing to pay and if i don't get it at that price, too bad. In July i'll have been on e-bay for 10 years and very seldom have had a problem.

 

[The BBQ QB]

Mike,

I still have the e-mails from E-bay. Here's why I increased my bid... and I copied this directly from their e-mail:


"So far, so good! Your bid has been confirmed, and you are the high bidder. It's almost yours, but you could still be outbid. You can improve your chances of winning by increasing your bid."

As one poster clearly described this is a normal transmission from EBAY, telling you that even though you are currently the high bidder, your $10.00 bid MAY be outbid by a future bidder and that placing a higher maximum bid will increase your chances of winning, which IMO is false. It does however increase EBAYs chances of making more money.

It seems to me that if the merchant himself/herself was responsible for "phantom" bids, their goal was to put a carrot over my nose, and lead me to "up" my bid. If I were to have fallen for this, the method used seems to be one that would work quite well.
Also, it seems likely that E-Bay would have figured out the "nibble" method you cite, hence creating a need for other "methods".

Like I said in my first post shilling (The act of bidding on your own auction to up the final sales price) is only effective if someone else wins the auction. The method you accuse the next bidder of using to shill the auction caused him to WIN it. This is not good for the shiller OR the seller, who must now pay FVF and Listing Fees. Shilling is inneffective unless done in very small increment, and yes, EBAY has a mechanism in place in order to detect the activity. It is rudimentary, but will detect repeat shills.

I'm sure the "You didn't win" e-mail was from E-Bay.

But that, as the lawyers say, is a distinction without a difference(my wife is a lawyer, so I know this statement well ).

E-Bay has provided a tool that would seem to make fraud easy... and, as someone who write queries that are in use on major sites currently, I can tell you, if I made the mistake of using an "A" instead of an "O"... it wouldn't matter, and E-Bay's final e-mail proves it.

Can you explain in laymans terms exactly what the above means? If the final e-mail came from EBAY where is the fraud occuring again?

AND...what a coincidence... the one Veg-a-matic out of a whole page that I could "BUY NOW" was listed at the very same price as my final bid.

Doesn't add up, Mike. I may have been born yesterday, but I wasn't born today.

Just sayin.

This is such a stretch that it's almost laughable, except for the fact that I think you believe it. Coincidence is just that coincidence.

Your EBAY search resulted in one listing because you used the "A" spelling and found the one auction with the item misspelled, currently if you use the "A" spelling there are no active auctions for that item. Replace the "A" with an "O" and you will bring up 60 odd listings all currently active, many with Buy-It-Now as the sole purchasing method.

By your own admission you're new to EBAY. I can see that you set up within 30 days and have only bid on the one item (twice) the veg-a-matic.

I stress the need to be wary, and find a comfortable place of understanding while bidding on EBAY, but this seller is not one to be looking for the grassy knoll shooter with. She's been on EBAY for 10 years (At least the account has) and has a score of 91 positieves in the last 12 months with 0 negs or Neutrals and she's based in Navasota, Texas. Her feedback history indicates 6 negs before Nov 2006. None for shilling, all for poor comminication issues.

The best bidding advice you've been given is to snipe bid if shilling concerns you,

As for the Paypal advice, the "New Ebay" almost always sides with the buyer, but it is still the best idea to pay with PayPal using your CC as the funding source. This is not the default in Paypal. (direct withdrawl from your Bank account is). To ensure you have the best protection possible every time you pay with Paypal, you must click on the "More funding options" link in the screen at Paypals confirm page and select and confirm using the CC as the source for the payment.


I am not denying that there is an abundance of fraud on EBAY, only that this seller is not one of them, nor is EBAY colluding in some grand scheme to Veg-A-Matics.

Aluminum hats are now on.

Mike D

 

[SuperQue]

I agree to wait until the last minute to bid. That way you know if someone is out there watching it too. I used to get outbid at the last second when I was looking for a Canon. The selling price when up an average $100 in the last minute. I lost probably 30 auctions before I finally got one.

As far as the seller coming back to you offering the item at your highest last bid, that's bunk too. After all, if it's just you and the high bidder bidding, then that drives your price up. They should offer you the item at your highest bid before the winner started bidding. Otherwise the fake bidder has worked in driving up the price and that's not right.

Also on another note, I have received 2 emails from "Paypal" that were phishing attempts. Very convincing formatted emails that looked very official but I knew they were fake since they were asking me to "verify" some points on my account. I forward them to Paypal to let them know.

 

[Bigg Higg's BBQ]

I've been selling and buying on ebay for over six years. The best advice i can give is to always check the sellers feedback rating prior to placing your bid. If the seller is lacking in any area of his/her business or attempting to defraud buyers it will show in their ratings. ALWAYS pay w/ paypal (ebay owns paypal) and they almost always side w/ the buyer if there is a dispute. As far as the original post, IMHO it seems to be a perfectly legit transaction w/ all the normal emails.

 

[btcg]

As one poster clearly described this is a normal transmission from EBAY, telling you that even though you are currently the high bidder, your $10.00 bid MAY be outbid by a future bidder and that placing a higher maximum bid will increase your chances of winning, which IMO is false. It does however increase EBAYs chances of making more money.

I don't wish to be mean... just matter of fact, so take this in that spirit: I acknowledged that in my last post. Does ignoring my last post's content and repeating this claim lend you credibility in your own mind?

Like I said in my first post shilling (The act of bidding on your own auction to up the final sales price) is only effective if someone else wins the auction. The method you accuse the next bidder of using to shill the auction caused him to WIN it. This is not good for the shiller OR the seller, who must now pay FVF and Listing Fees. Shilling is inneffective unless done in very small increment, and yes, EBAY has a mechanism in place in order to detect the activity. It is rudimentary, but will detect repeat shills.

So let's analyze your claim. It's your theory that a crooks use of "bait money" is inneffective? I think you'd better alert the criminal world... this method has been used, and is still widely used in the criminal world. Crooks expect to lose a little money now and then... it's a risk they're willing to take for greater profits.

Can you explain in laymans terms exactly what the above means? If the final e-mail came from EBAY where is the fraud occuring again?

Can I explain programming to you, you ask? Sorry, but you need to do your own work. here's a link to get started:

http://w3.org

This is such a stretch that it's almost laughable, except for the fact that I think you believe it. Coincidence is just that coincidence.

Your EBAY search resulted in one listing because you used the "A" spelling and found the one auction with the item misspelled, currently if you use the "A" spelling there are no active auctions for that item. Replace the "A" with an "O" and you will bring up 60 odd listings all currently active, many with Buy-It-Now as the sole purchasing method.

By your own admission you're new to EBAY. I can see that you set up within 30 days and have only bid on the one item (twice) the veg-a-matic.

Again, let's analyze what you're claiming.


There was another entire page of the same product from another merchant... but according to you... it's normal that not a single one of these bidders placed a bid on any of those very same items... they bid on the item I was bidding on. So by your reasoning...every one of those other bidders misspelled Veg-O-matic, and ended up on the same page as I did. You're right about something being laughable... pot meet kettle.




Several others here, as well as people I know, have come forward and said similar things have occurred to them. In essence, you call them liars.
Frankly Mike, I think you have issues... and I think you owe the board an apology.

 

[Texas Turtle]

BTW, I regularly see original VOMs at garage sales for prices ranging from fifty cents to $5.00 depending on condition. I still have the one I inherited from my late Mom and it still works great, but it drives my wife nuts when I pull it out of the cabinet. Not high-tech enough for her, I guess.

 

[btcg]

I've been selling and buying on ebay for over six years. The best advice i can give is to always check the sellers feedback rating prior to placing your bid. If the seller is lacking in any area of his/her business or attempting to defraud buyers it will show in their ratings. ALWAYS pay w/ paypal (ebay owns paypal) and they almost always side w/ the buyer if there is a dispute. As far as the original post, IMHO it seems to be a perfectly legit transaction w/ all the normal emails.

Bigg,

There was, we're to believe, another entire page full of the very same product. The price listed on most of them was .99 cents each.

Do you really think it's normal that all of those who bid against me either all mispelled the name in the exact same manner as I did... and/or said to themselves:

"why should I pay .99 cents for this when I can pay $30-40 for it"

Makes no sense.

 

[btcg]

BTW, I regularly see original VOMs at garage sales for prices ranging from fifty cents to $5.00 depending on condition. I still have the one I inherited from my late Mom and it still works great, but it drives my wife nuts when I pull it out of the cabinet. Not high-tech enough for her, I guess.

I was an electronic tech for more than 30 years. If you see a simpson 260... grab it... it's a classic.

 

[BBQchef33]

I use my digital timer and start it when an auction gets down to the
5 minute mark. I keep refreshing the page to make sure the price is still
in my range...and when the timer gets down to 15 seconds left for the
auction; then I enter my bid.

I never bid until the last 15 seconds of the auction...I think it helps keep
the price down as low as possible, for me to buy.

I use e-snipe to submit my bid within the last 10 seconds. It never benefits you to place a bid early... it just gives other people motivation to increase the final sales price.

I'm of the same mindset.. i bit in the last 10 seconds. Open 2 windows, one with the timer, the other with the 'confirm bid' page and hit that bid in the last 5 seconds.

However, this still wont work if someone was 'watching" with a higher bid banked, but it does stop the price from rising too fast.




On ADMIN NOTE: :mod:

This is a good discussion. Lets not ruin it by sniping each other.(no pun intended). No one is here to piss each other off. Keep it civil.

 

[thomasjurisd]

I for one am surprised that this hasn't been moved to the Woodpile...like a very similar topic started by someone last week trying to get a conversation started about buying/selling gear on ebay... ? :wink:

 

[The BBQ QB]

Since it has become clear that my comments are being interpreted as a personal attack I will re-direct them to the forum itself. The information posted below I hope will allow novice EBAY users to better recognize and understand their surroundings while using EBAY successfully.

To the uninitiated, there is simply too much going on in an auction to make a usefull and informed decision on the level of risk associated with the sale.

The first step is always to verify the sellers history. To do this use Toolhaus.org and enter the users ID Negative/Neutral Feedback tool. This will filter the sellers history back to the start, pulling only Nuetrals & Negs. Very effective history analyzer of the seller.

Second, communication between seller and yourself should only be conducted through the My Ebay Messages console. Any auction related email you receive at your regular re-direct (Commonly your regular email account) MUST always appear in you’re my Ebay Messages console. If it is there then you can rest-assured that the mail is legit and it came from the seller inside Ebay. If it is not there, it is a spoof or phish and should be reported Here, under Account Security.

I have already touched on the Paypal CC default. Do this always. While the current state of EBAY will mostly side with the buyer there are cases where they will not or can not. Using your CC as the funding source for the Paypal payment allows you to fall back on your CC protections, which are federally regulated and mandated.

Be aware of the deadline, you have 45 days from auction close date to file a claim with paypal. Never, under any circumstances, close the claim, until you are 100% satisfied with the transaction results. Paypal will NOT re-open the claim and they will NOT allow a second claim on the same transaction.

Uncommunicative sellers can be contacted by lifting their contact info by the following process and calling them yourself
1. Click the Advanced Search link at the top of most pages.
2. In the Members section on the left side of the page, click the Find contact information link.
3. Enter the user ID of the member and the transaction's item number
If this information turns out to be fraudulent or non functional report it to EBAY using the aforementioned link. Be aware, the seller will receive your contact info as well. Also note that this will only work for recent transaction partners ONLY

If you buy and sell on EBAY, get separate accounts to do each process.

Most importantly, educate yourself on how fraud is perpetrated using EBAY as the dummy. This post is by one of the most experienced and knowledgeable EBAY members wrt fraud on the site. It lists and links to clear descriptions of the fraud and how it is committed.


So back to our current auction and specifically, Shilling. It is only effective if the shill does not win the auction. Remember the shill is the seller. If the shill wins then the seller is on the hook for the fees EBAY will charge. They are not light, but if you are a conspiracy theorist here’s a tool EBAY gives the buyer to evaluate whom you might think is a shill.

In the auction you are considering placing a bid on: click on the #bids link in the auction page. That will bring up a list of bidders. If you then click on the bidder you will see the bidders bidding history.



This is the one from the Veg_A_matic auction. You can see the suspected “shiller” has only bid on this sellers items once. (2 bids on this auction). And if you look, at the whole page (not shown) can see he bid enough on the second bid to win the whole thing.

If you were to notice repeat bidding on a single seller, without any wins, then you have the makings for a shilling argument. Or you see any bid retractions in that line, there may be a case for concern.

Finally, here are a few Ebay Red flags to be aware of…..With the exception of the first 25, they were compiled by me for use as a tool on Ebays Trust and Safety Forum.

In, and of themselves, individually, they are not considered an indicator of fraud alone, but should be noted as significant red flags. More than two or three together is a heavy indicator of risk.

Many, no longer apply as EBAY has made changes to address the core issue noted, but are nevertheless red flags in any dealing you may have online. Craigs list or other:

1. an expensive item being sold at a fraction of retail
2. deal looks " too good to be true"
3. seller location (China or similar) does not match listing location or shipping
4. auction currency does not match seller location or item location
5. auction lasts one day
6. an email address is in the listing, with instructions to 'Contact Me Here' or similar
7. feedback ( FB) may show account has been dormant for a while
8. FB shows previous activity was as a buyer only
9. FB may show no history of selling expensive items
10. FB may be private
11. FB language does not match seller's location
12. payment by cash wire money transfer such as Western Union
13. PayPal logo in auction ad, but PP actually not accepted
14. free shipping worldwide
15. ad has been copied from another eBayer or website
16. seller has several auctions, using very different style ads for each
17. language not consistent throughout ad. English may be excellent in the description, but very poor elsewhere such as for payment terms
18. item listed in a totally inappropriate category
19. seller does not answer e-mail questions
20. Request to send paypal Payment to sellers “other” paypal acct
21. Private listing
22. Paypal account was/is frozen
23. Use of same pics for hot/high priced items
24. +FB your seller received came 1-2 minutes after each auction ended.
25. sends a safe harbor email saying he is a trustworthy person or makes comments to the effect
26. seller lifted jpegs, and/or html
27. Seller is listing 20K+ worth of listing
28. Seller responds only to paypal complaints
29. virtually all of a sellers buyers are No Longer Registered Users
30. bidder ID's kept private
31. Under 10 Over 100 – Seller under 10 FB selling item over $100
32. Item is listed in Information Auction Category and you can’t figure out why
33. Seller has good feedback but only from other sellers (ie buys only) and is now listing several high ticket items for sale)
34. Auction states please leave 4 or more weeks for delivery
35. Auction comes up in a search when keyword used has nothing to do with auction ie searching “Nike” and a Plasma TV is in the search results
36. Offer to pay More via money order than auction settled for so the overpayment could be forwarded to someone locally with whom the buyer has a debt (you, of course will be given an extra fee for your troubles)
37. Bid retractions on over-bidders with “bid wrong amount as excuse” and no re-bid
38. Bid retractions in buyers history
39. No response to e-mails
40. Pre-sale auctions
41. 99 cent auction $45 Shipping etc.
42. request to use escrow other than Escrow.com
43. buyer bidding outside your ship to restrictions
44. request to ship to PO Box, Out of Country etcetera
45. 0 feedback seller
46. Bulk Item auctions claiming to be unsorted ie. Baseball card lots, old coins, stamps etcetera…They’ve all been sorted that’s why they’re for sale on E-bay
47. If you ever think "I tried to be patient and work with this seller"
48. Or If you ever think "This guys grandmother, mother and Sister all died in different incidents over three consecutive weeks? How horrible."
49. Any seller/buyer stating personal issues are causing delays, but to please be patient
50. pre-approved" bidder lists
51. Seller changes TOS after auction end
52. Buyer wants to change conditions of TOS after completion
53. Item photographs disappear from auction immediately after auction end
54. Seller FB rating below 98% (Even this is a stretch - below 99% Check closely)
55. Mutually withdrawn negative feedback
56. Vulgar, profane or rude attitude in feedback
57. You are within a day of Ebay/Paypal dispute deadlines and you are not satisfied
58. Requests to insure packages below real value
59. Requests to mark packages "gift"
60. Auction indicates "Insurance is the responsibility of the buyer" or "Cannot be held responsible for items lost in the mail" or other such nonsense
61. Auction Shipping section states "See description for details" and no shipping details can be found anywhere.
62. Auction does not accept Paypal funded by CC
63. Buyer demands Full refund but refuses to return Item, but, after a lengthy discussion, suggests partial refund.
64. Second chance offers
65. Off Ebay offers
66. Seller/Buyer suggesting issue may smooth itself over if Positive feedback is left
67. Offers to include sales receipt as confirmation of authenticity
68. The statement: "You will need to deal with manufacturer through warranty if you need to repair or replace"
69. Auction states "No Refunds will be given" or no return policy
70. Mystery Auctions
71. China, Romania, Nigeria
72. Written communication includes "Compliments of the Season"
73. Links in "emails from Ebay", but in your regular mailbox not My Ebay
74. Links in auctions
75. Designer Items (Purses, shoes, clothes etc.)
76. Buyer wants to use their own shipping account and will send waybill (often purchased with stolen CC)
77. Overseas Buyer paying with Paypal (Deliver confirmation is impossible, voiding seller protection)

If you would like me to look at an auction for you and assess it’s risk, I would be more than happy to do so. PM me and, if I’m available I’ll take a look.

Mike D

 

[augie]

I was an electronic tech for more than 30 years. If you see a simpson 260... grab it... it's a classic.

...probably just a fluke...

 

[Jorge]

I'm a programmer too. I agree, the merchant could have a conditional statement (probably a SELECT CASE that loads the correct Select * query from the merchant database)... but this would have to be server-side. And if you're correct, that means E-Bay is in on it. Makes sense, the more it sells for, the higher the commision, I assume.

Sounds like a crime.

It would be more involved, but still relatively simple to do the same thing client side.

 

[dmprantz]

I didn't read the whole thread, so sorry if I am repeating, but few comments:

The eMail suggesting uping the bid is normal. It's eBay trying to prevent sniping (see below).

Getting outbid at the very end is not at all uncommon. It's called sniping, and it makes little sense. If you proxy bid correctly, the system will only raise your bid as high as it has to. Snipers think that waiting to the end allows them to some how get the item cheaper, when as far as I can tell, all it does is take more time from them, not raise a proxy bidder's bid as high as it could if the sniper runs out of time, and frustrate proxy bidders who think they have the item won 10 minutes before the auction ends.

The eMail you got after the auction was not unusual either. eBay often sends them out to help buyers and sellers find each other after lost auctions. Especially with the Buy it Now option, sounds like a good deal for you. It may cost you more than the $10 you tried to get it for, but it's a guarenteed win.

PayPal: Whoever said it was the safest way to pay, I completely disagree, and I used to work in the payments industry. PayPal itself is an unregulated bank and has a notorious history of confiscating people's funds with no appeals. Consider that before keeping money there. Also, I have heard stories that their guarentee only applies when the other party of the PayPal transaction still has funds in the receiving account: That is to say, if you transfer funds to a seller, the seller withdraws all the money and never sends you anything, PayPal won't help you. Finally, I can say that by far, the safest way to pay for something is with a credit card. Card associations have very strict and reliable dispute practices that are proven to work, and it is a government regulated industry that cannot abuse its users. Even if you have PayPal, I recommend you pay with PayPal's Credit Card bridge so that you retain dispute rights if fraud is a concern of yours, but your mileage may vary, and you can pay however you want.

Sure, it's possible to artificially raise proxy bids on eBay. This has been highly against the rules and grounds for immediate banning for 15 years though, and it does not come without other risks. The max proxy bid AFAIK is only visible, even to the seller, after the auction closes to prevent this. If a seller raises the bids too high, he runs the risk of losing the auction totally and being out the listing fee. If that happens and the seller then contacts you directly, first they have to go through eBay for that initial contact, so eBay can track it, and then eBay has strict rules against offering to sell listed items outside of their system to avoid fees. Again, possible, but is it worth it? I have bought things outside of eBay when offered, but I never ask. Some of these obscurities along with an overall lacking of customer service is why I very infrequently shop there.

hth,

dmp

 

[btcg]

...probably just a fluke...

LOL.. only a tech will get that. Good one!

 

[btcg]

It would be more involved, but still relatively simple to do the same thing client side.

XML maybe? Modern browsers will probably warn the user.

Java Script makes it a crap-shoot... many have JS turned off. Paranoid, I'd agree... but off none the less.

 

[btcg]

I didn't read the whole thread, so sorry if I am repeating, but few comments:

The eMail suggesting uping the bid is normal. It's eBay trying to prevent sniping (see below).

Getting outbid at the very end is not at all uncommon. It's called sniping, and it makes little sense. If you proxy bid correctly, the system will only raise your bid as high as it has to. Snipers think that waiting to the end allows them to some how get the item cheaper, when as far as I can tell, all it does is take more time from them, not raise a proxy bidder's bid as high as it could if the sniper runs out of time, and frustrate proxy bidders who think they have the item won 10 minutes before the auction ends.

The eMail you got after the auction was not unusual either. eBay often sends them out to help buyers and sellers find each other after lost auctions. Especially with the Buy it Now option, sounds like a good deal for you. It may cost you more than the $10 you tried to get it for, but it's a guarenteed win.

PayPal: Whoever said it was the safest way to pay, I completely disagree, and I used to work in the payments industry. PayPal itself is an unregulated bank and has a notorious history of confiscating people's funds with no appeals. Consider that before keeping money there. Also, I have heard stories that their guarentee only applies when the other party of the PayPal transaction still has funds in the receiving account: That is to say, if you transfer funds to a seller, the seller withdraws all the money and never sends you anything, PayPal won't help you. Finally, I can say that by far, the safest way to pay for something is with a credit card. Card associations have very strict and reliable dispute practices that are proven to work, and it is a government regulated industry that cannot abuse its users. Even if you have PayPal, I recommend you pay with PayPal's Credit Card bridge so that you retain dispute rights if fraud is a concern of yours, but your mileage may vary, and you can pay however you want.

Sure, it's possible to artificially raise proxy bids on eBay. This has been highly against the rules and grounds for immediate banning for 15 years though, and it does not come without other risks. The max proxy bid AFAIK is only visible, even to the seller, after the auction closes to prevent this. If a seller raises the bids too high, he runs the risk of losing the auction totally and being out the listing fee. If that happens and the seller then contacts you directly, first they have to go through eBay for that initial contact, so eBay can track it, and then eBay has strict rules against offering to sell listed items outside of their system to avoid fees. Again, possible, but is it worth it? I have bought things outside of eBay when offered, but I never ask. Some of these obscurities along with an overall lacking of customer service is why I very infrequently shop there.

hth,

dmp

I agree with about 90% of your post... and especially your points about Pay Pal.

One other thing: this notion that a rating... even one that is 100% positive ... translates into a trustworth merchant, is a notion in error.

The merchant may well be reliable. It might also mean that they simply haven't been caught yet, or are using multiple storefronts and working with others to maintain a certain price level.

It's also important to remember that many merchants see nothing wrong with this practice, hence the invention of merchant guilds, and these date back to Sumer (1750 BCE). We know this for a fact: we have the cuniform tablets.

Buyer beware.

 

[Jorge]

XML maybe? Modern browsers will probably warn the user.

Java Script makes it a crap-shoot... many have JS turned off. Paranoid, I'd agree... but off none the less.

I may have misunderstood the original point. What a bidder has on their monitor due to their browser settings is meaningless to me. If I'm writing code to accomplish the task described I'm only concerned with the data I can gather, operating my shill accounts, and processing data. My app would scrape various auctions for bids, bid history, account name, and process it. A basic analysis would more than likely yield some insightful info as to bid trends from a user, especially in comparison to other bidders. Time, ammount, amount of increase, average diff. from high and low bids, etc...

Manipulating bidding through shill accounts would be a piece of cake, and easily automated with some really basic scripts. Doing it over time, would require some extra effort to avoid detection however.

Thanks for the brain candy!