Thoughts on judging

[smoke-n-my-i's]

My original post is below for reference....

Now, are only the cook team grumbling, as they do not know the judging procedures/training, or is it a mix of team, judges, table captains, etc....

My first part, referenced taste....

Then the main suggested "training" comment was appearance... and judging with the sauce on the box.....

IF you have ever taken a judging class, table captain class, or even really listened to the reps (at least the ones I have been at), listened to the CD, you will HEAR the part about sauce on the box....

What I am getting at, is, I feel there are some judges, that all they want is a "free" meal, take homes, and get out of there.... are they really taking the "job" seriously???? Who really know but the judge themselves.

I do believe KCBS is starting to look into this, and from what I can gather, they are or will be tracking the judges and their scores for comparison from comp to comp. Hopefully if this is what is going on, it will help get a feel for why there are some that are lower scoring judges compared to others, or on the other hand, why are there some that consistently score high....

If this is truly the case, it will take some time to get it implemented and do some study.... so in the mean time.... let's just to what we do best, and keep the blue smoke rolling..... happy BBQ'n.

The more I am around, here and at comps, the more I hear of rumblings of poor judging.

I too wonder if there should be more training, mentoring, requirements. It is hard to understand when you turn in the same meat in the same box, that you get say 4 9's than a 6 and a 5 or less say for taste..... WOW... where did that come from? IMHO, preference... nothing else.

Here is a prime example for appearance.... http://www.bbqcritic.com/17/post/2012/05/ribs-box-92-frostbuster-2012.html#comments

[FONT=&quot]Larry CBJ/KCBS/GBA [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]05/08/2012 3:24pm[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 - Gloppy sauce, uneven spacing, and clean the box. Attention to detail would surely get this box a 9.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]John - KCBS/MCBJ, CTC, Rep; MBN [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]05/08/2012 5:16pm[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Easy 8 and perhaps a 9. Nice box. I ignored the smudge on the inside front of the box because that could have happened when the table captain unfastened the lid prior to presenting for appearance.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]BBQ Critic [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]05/09/2012 4:51am[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John - Good call on ignoring that smudge inside the box. You are correct. The smudge could be the Table Captain's fault or even someone handling the box at the turn-in table. Congrats on giving the cook the benefit of the doubt.

-- BBQ Critic[/FONT]


Yes, I do a lot of surfing about the topic, and this is a prime example.... judges and table captains are instructed NOT to score down for sauce on the lid or box.... so, is this a lack of training, listening is class, or just personal preference????

I think this is just one example why so many say that the judges in general need more mentoring, training, etc....

These are just my thoughts only...

Comments are welcome, good or bad.

 

[Lake Dogs]

While in any pool of people there are always a few that you'd prefer to not have in that pool, additional training and experience is always beneficial.

I will tell you though that appearance can be just as subjective as taste. For example, I've seen Money Muscle presentations that are AWESOME, and some that I wasn't sure if it was meat or not because it really, and I mean REALLY looked like a turd in the box. I dont know about you, but the sight of a turd doesn't make me think "Man, I've just GOT to take a bite of THAT!". Apparently it either doesn't look like a turd to some or some find turds appetizing because I've seen scores on tables like this (for appearance) vary from 4's and 5's (I think someone was being generous) to 9's... It's tough, frankly.
I've seen chicken come across that looks like all types of things that aren't chicken. The little red Christmas ornaments seem to have been vogue for a while. I've also seen chicken that really, and I mean REALLY looked like baked potatoes... Being as you're there to judge how appetizing this chicken is to you, how would you score it? <rhetorically>

 

[smoke-n-my-i's]

I am surprised that this hasn't been brought up yet....

http://kcbs.us/judges-education.php

BTW, you HAVE to be a judge to get there.... not just a member.

 

[Coz]

I wonder how much of what the new to BBQ judges influences come from what they are given at the CBJ class. When I took the class the chicken was very good the rest was pretty bland. Most of the folks scored it very high . The instuctor told me not to judge it against what I cook but its own merit. When my partner took his class the instructor gave him the same instruction (same instructor) The food there was bordering on inedible and folks still scored it high . In fact my partner said it should be a crime to call that BBQ. Really how much are we asking of these people especially since in our area there really isnt any joints where good Q is to be had. If they think they are being fed good comp food , then they get to a contest and get a few entries that are so-so they give em 8-9 then they get an outstanding one ? There has been 150 or more new CBJs created in our state the last few years and I bet that most will have a very hard time getting to judge due to the fact that we dont have that many contests . I think the Masters deal is kinda FUBAR also. I have seen where the folks had to dig in and do everything and where they just showed up and visited then got passed because the cook didnt want to be the *******. That benefits no none.

 

[EatonHoggBBQ]

Just out of curiosity, what exactly would the continuing judges education consist of?

Remember now, judges score with:
KCBS standards
Objective and subjective opinion on appearance, taste, and texture of the entry.

KCBS standards are set values.
Objective and subjective opinions are personal input.

Above and beyond that what else is needed? What else could be used?

 

[smoke-n-my-i's]

When my wife took her judging class, I was there... I helped the cook team some, and saw what was cooked.... they used up all kinds of different sauces, etc just to use them up... burnt a couple of briskets, ....... etc....

Now a cook team member taking the class knows ( or should know) the difference between, and I am going to use this terminology for what it is worth, good and bad bbq.

The average public taking the class will think that since a comp team is cooking it is the "standard".... Now when they get to their first comp to judge, WOW... in their minds, "wow, this is the best compared to that junk at the class"..... so, they give out 9's.....

Now someone that has been around the circuit for a while, knows, or should know a little more abt what is going on... IMHO.

So, like it has been asked before, what is average?????

Is it really all subjective, or personal preference?????

And now, back to my original question... what about the judge that scored down for sauce on the box????? was that his personal preference?? looks like it as the comment was, "I scored down for sauce on the box.... "

Apparently he has not, did not, or doesn't listen to the reps, cd, or his training manual, or class......

How does that get corrected????

I wonder how much of what the new to BBQ judges influences come from what they are given at the CBJ class. When I took the class the chicken was very good the rest was pretty bland. Most of the folks scored it very high . The instuctor told me not to judge it against what I cook but its own merit. When my partner took his class the instructor gave him the same instruction (same instructor) The food there was bordering on inedible and folks still scored it high . In fact my partner said it should be a crime to call that BBQ. Really how much are we asking of these people especially since in our area there really isnt any joints where good Q is to be had. If they think they are being fed good comp food , then they get to a contest and get a few entries that are so-so they give em 8-9 then they get an outstanding one ? There has been 150 or more new CBJs created in our state the last few years and I bet that most will have a very hard time getting to judge due to the fact that we dont have that many contests . I think the Masters deal is kinda FUBAR also. I have seen where the folks had to dig in and do everything and where they just showed up and visited then got passed because the cook didnt want to be the *******. That benefits no none.

 

[smoke-n-my-i's]

I think, but I don't know, this may be what is on the KCBS website for judges training....

Hopefully it will have some of the basic questions that is in their training, on the CD and what the reps continue to stress on the comps.... if they have to answer the questions online, maybe they will get it right when they don't seem to have that "basic" knowledge when they score down for sauce on the lid or on the edge of a box......

Wish I could see what that section of the judging on line training consists of......

Just out of curiosity, what exactly would the continuing judges education consist of?

Remember now, judges score with:
KCBS standards
Objective and subjective opinion on appearance, taste, and texture of the entry.

KCBS standards are set values.
Objective and subjective opinions are personal input.

Above and beyond that what else is needed? What else could be used?

 

[BRBBQ]

I've been at more then one contest that didnt have enough judges, so the Reps find the 1st person walking down the street..No training there!

 

[smoke-n-my-i's]

I've been at more then one contest that didnt have enough judges, so the Reps find the 1st person walking down the street..No training there!

Were you there when the rep "volunteered" them????

I am sure, or would think that they (the rep) did give them some basic instruction as they do for a "seasoned" and new judge...... and hopefully show them some of the turn in box pics......

 

[bbq.tom]

I've been at more then one contest that didnt have enough judges, so the Reps find the 1st person walking down the street..No training there!

And... do you think that they make better judges since they have no clue as to what they are doing???

Actually, it is rare that I don't hear during the judge's meeting that the judges should take into consideration the time and money the cooks have invested for the competition. Encouraging judges to score higher.

Continuing education - either formal classroom training OR informal (discussions with other judges at your table on the entries you just judged) is esential for furthering a judge's knowledge and honing their judging skills. IMHO. IF (and that is a BIG IF) they actually LISTEN and absorb the opinions expressed by others. Closed minded judges are NOT helping advance the sport we know and love as competition barbecue!

Concerning the "on-line" judge's exams (KCBS), these CAN be good if used to help understand and LEARN from what is presented. A judge can take the exam numerous times and not learn a dadgum thing if they don't take the time to read and understand "why" the answer is what it is.

Just my $0.02.

 

[ModelMaker]

I think if you look around a little you'll see KCBS is indeed trying to improve judging with continueing efforts. There is a 1st time judge mentoring program, an online continueing education effort for CBJ's, you have new BOD members made up of cooks, judges, cook/judges and I see some attention being paid just to the judges. I think a lot has been started latley and I expect it to lead to improvements in the future.
You've mentioned score creep, I couldn't agree more. Average gets a 6, truely above average gets a 7, Great's an 8, Gimme dat's a 9. Maybe this too will be addressed in the future (man I can hear the whinning already)!!
How much cook teams spend and how hard they work has no place in KCBS scoring.
I'd like to see reference of same banned in the judges tent period.
Last but not least, if I remember correctly from the judges cd it mentions smears only on the lid of the box, nothing about the inside, that box in question is a mess and I would deduct a point for appearence. The smears on the sides should have been wiped off by the cook before sending it to the turn in table.
Ed

 

[Coz]

When my wife took her judging class, I was there... I helped the cook team some, and saw what was cooked.... they used up all kinds of different sauces, etc just to use them up... burnt a couple of briskets, ....... etc....

Now a cook team member taking the class knows ( or should know) the difference between, and I am going to use this terminology for what it is worth, good and bad bbq.

The average public taking the class will think that since a comp team is cooking it is the "standard".... Now when they get to their first comp to judge, WOW... in their minds, "wow, this is the best compared to that junk at the class"..... so, they give out 9's.....

Now someone that has been around the circuit for a while, knows, or should know a little more abt what is going on... IMHO.

So, like it has been asked before, what is average?????

Is it really all subjective, or personal preference?????

And now, back to my original question... what about the judge that scored down for sauce on the box????? was that his personal preference?? looks like it as the comment was, "I scored down for sauce on the box.... "

Apparently he has not, did not, or doesn't listen to the reps, cd, or his training manual, or class......

How does that get corrected????

I dont read it as he scored down for the sauce but that it would score better if more attention was paid to the details.The stuff he listed was details. I gave it a 7 at first blush but in person maybe an 8. If we turned in a box like that I would be Pissed at myself .Now thats based on that pic being taken before we walked it to turn in. The uneven spacing etc could be from jostling etc.
How do we fix the issue if the judge did put it as you stated on a comment card ? I dont know the answer but I think with some tracking of it happens perhaps it will get better. We had an issue at an event last year her .I believe that the reps may have talked with the judge but I am not sure. I know the organiser most likely wont use that judge again.
I judged an event and sat at the same table with a couple of folks I see regularly and now I kinda get POed when I see them headed for the tent. Minimal bites on the piece etc . I also had the fortune to sit with 2 really good judges IMHO who spent some time sharing their views . I kinda decided judging was not in the best interest of my blood pressure. :mmph: For the most part I have not felt that bad on the judging we have gotten. I spent a lot of time cussing rib judging last year but discovered I really did suck at ribs last year.

 

[EatonHoggBBQ]

Sauce on the inside of the lid should not be marked down. Contest reps explain prior to judging that sauce could be there due to stacking of the boxes on the turn in tray. If it's a subjective or objective call then I don't know what to tell you. Smudges on the inside of the box don't make me not want to eat barbeque.

Personally I think the judges mentoring is a bad idea. There are too many judges out there that think they are the ultimate and regardless of what KCBS wants them to instill in their newby judge, they are still going pump some of their B.S. into them. That is where the problem is going to begin. Newby judge with KCBS standards and rules on one side of the brain, B.S. from super judge on the other side of the brain. KCBS needs to make available to the mentors, an actual list of their judging standards, and a printed copy of the judging cd for them to use when answering questions from the new judge.

The education was given at the judges class. The continuing education that is really needed doesn't need to be in some class room or in some online test. The continuing education is given out freely every weekend inside the judges tent. You just have to get off your rear end and take part.

 

[BRBBQ]

Were you there when the rep "volunteered" them????

I am sure, or would think that they (the rep) did give them some basic instruction as they do for a "seasoned" and new judge...... and hopefully show them some of the turn in box pics......

Local contest and judges at my table went over the basic info on what to look for, I dont think it's fair to any team

 

[SirPorkaLot]

Whoa..Sonny's is average? For who??

It may well be the worst BBQ I have ever had...

 

[ModelMaker]

Sauce on the inside of the lid should not be marked down. Contest reps explain prior to judging that sauce could be there due to stacking of the boxes on the turn in tray. If it's a subjective or objective call then I don't know what to tell you. Smudges on the inside of the box don't make me not want to eat barbeque.

Personally I think the judges mentoring is a bad idea. There are too many judges out there that think they are the ultimate and regardless of what KCBS wants them to instill in their newby judge, they are still going pump some of their B.S. into them. That is where the problem is going to begin. Newby judge with KCBS standards and rules on one side of the brain, B.S. from super judge on the other side of the brain. KCBS needs to make available to the mentors, an actual list of their judging standards, and a printed copy of the judging cd for them to use when answering questions from the new judge.

The education was given at the judges class. The continuing education that is really needed doesn't need to be in some class room or in some online test. The continuing education is given out freely every weekend inside the judges tent. You just have to get off your rear end and take part.

If you would read the mentoring article you will undestand that the mentor is not there to teach, only to reafirm what was taught in the class and be a freind for a new judge in a new enviroment. The Rep at hand is to remind the mentor of this also.
How can this not be of some comfort to a 1st time judge and to set him on the path to being a great judge that you all deserve as cooks and KCBS needs to provide to organisers?
Ed

 

[NBBD]

KCBS
I have never competed,I just took the class a month ago, I just judged my first comp.

I think judges absolutely need continuing education and the test on the KCBS site is not the answer. A video section would be a good start... (Somewhere I heard or read of the idea that a Video CBJ class with a facilitator mentioned so that everyone who becomes certified sees the same info.)

 

[Dale P]

I for one feel that the Judges do a good job. But there are some rogue Judges I have talked to that no amount of training will help. It is a personality trait that has no answer. AKA as they are nuts.

 

[EatonHoggBBQ]

I for one feel that the Judges do a good job. But there are some rogue Judges I have talked to that no amount of training will help. It is a personality trait that has no answer. AKA as they are nuts.

And they will be mentoring new judges. :crazy:

 

[Fat Freddy]

Were you there when the rep "volunteered" them????

I am sure, or would think that they (the rep) did give them some basic instruction as they do for a "seasoned" and new judge...... and hopefully show them some of the turn in box pics......

I have been at a contest where there were not enough judges and they organizers were indeed pulling people off the street, or out of the casino where the event was being held in my case, offering them some gift to judge then putting them with experienced judges. That was the extent of the education. I know this because I was one that was asked and that was how I judged my very first contest that started my involvement in BBQ.

As a judge and a cook I guess my main pet peeve is preconceived thoughts. Sadly it is not the newer judges that have these thoughts. Some of what I mean is on the bbqcritic or even here on the brethren. How many times have we heard stuff about looking like blues hog or tasting like Blues Hog so I marked down. Or another one that gets me one judge marks down because the brisket flat has fat on it but on another box a different judge marks down because there was no fat on it. I could keep going with the muffin pan chicken, burnt ends,sliced pork etc...

I dont feel it is the newer judges that have already made up their mind but it is the more experienced judges that should be judging each piece on its own merit.