Reason for the stall

[ZILLA]

I love threads like this one. We might be over thinking something that a lot of people know from experience but if you want to experiment and improve your cooking technique these discussions can save you a lot of trial and error.

I don't think we're over thinking it at all. A lot can be gained by understanding thie processes of cooking. The funny thing is all these folks that have been disrupting our On Topic Only thread in Q Talk will be the first ones that want to know how any new methods that may come from this conversation are applied.

I have taken a lot of time to study brining so that I can make adjustments to my times and outcomes in my comp chicken. I couldn't do this without a deeper understanding of the process.

 

[KnucklHed BBQ]

I'll start off with this disclaimer - I am not a rocket surgeon and do not claim to have the answers to unlock the secrets of space and time, I'll leave that to Mark. :becky:

I think we need to consider that at a basic level we're working with 2 things that have very dissimilar properties and phase change temps - water and collegen.

water - already a liquid and during the cook is evaporating at a higher rate from the outside of the meat due to cooking chamber temps and direct exposure to this temp.
collegen - is a solid trying to convert from a solid to a liquid. Since it has little or no direct contact with the higher temps from the outer cooking chamber, it has to rely on the thermal convection of the water (convection only happens with liquids & gasses, not solids) to give conductive heat transfer to the collegen.

I've noiced that when cooking butts and briskets at a higher temp there is a shorter stall, but that stands to reason since more energy applied would result in a shorter phase change period.

However a shorter phase change period for collegen also results in a shorter or accellerated phase change period for the water, potentially causing more water to evaporate before the collegen is done with it's phase change from solid to liquid, causing the meat to loose too much water and drying out.

However, the opposite is also true - if you take too long to convert the collegen from solid to liquid, then you will also have converted too much water from liquid to gas, ending up with dry meat (dehydration).

Since water DOES NOT have to be at 213* (sea level) to go through it's phase change to a gas, but collegen DOES need to hit 160-165* to go through phase change to liquid (just like an ice cube must hit a temp over 32* to change from solid to liquid) you could cook a butt at 160-165* and might finally achieve phase change for the collegen, however the water has already evaporated and the meat is now in dehydration.


As far as Zilla's question about salt making a difference in the duration of the stall, perhaps some of the effects of thermohaline could come into play - thermohaline is usually thought of in reference to ocean currents and the differences in water temp and salinity that cause those currents.

If an increase or decrease in saline and temp in ocean water causes it to flow, then wouldn't/couldn't it cause it to move in meat as well?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermohaline

Hmm... maybe I could be a rocket surgeon... :crazy:

 

[ZILLA]

Plus everything that we said so far is based on the assumption that you have just collagen and water. Taking into account that collagen is only 2-6% of most pieces of meat it does not account for the long period it takes to get out of stall. Other things are changing phases too. Unless we breakdown the meat in all its constituents and look each one individually and then in a system you cannot get a clear answer if fast or slow is better. And in the end it is all a balancing act. If you go too fast or too slow the results are not going to be as satisfying.

According to this article meat falls under the Global thermodynamic equilibrium properties as all of the various molecules are homogeneous so the general rule of equilibrium must still apply. It's interesting to note that given collagen by itself changes phase between 160* - 180* there is still a variance in stall temps. So other molecules must play a part in each individual brisket.

Let me relay this bit of info. I have a friend in Houston that cooks brisket below 200* for as long as it takes for them to finish. around 18 hrs usually. He has been cooking this way for 20 years or more, very old school. He has also cooked a few thousand briskets, often 25 at a time. He has told me that on occasion he will get briskets that do not get tender even after reaching temp. I have heard this from several cookers over the years and the explanation is "it's just that individual piece of beef". The common thread between them all is they all cooked at around 200*. so I'm beginning to think that cooking hotter may be a better environment to break down the collagen.

I cook at about 250*+ all the time sometime hotter. I never had a brisket that wouldn't get tender.

 

[deguerre]

Amazing discourse on the subject. I've just opened the thread for the first time and read the entire thing in utter fascination. Thank you gentlemen.

 

[RichardF]

Well I suppose that we are looking at Global thermodynamic equilibrium as thereason that all of the various molecules in the brisket rise in temperature at the same rate.

isn't that what i said (insert wink here)

Since water DOES NOT have to be at 213* (sea level) to go through it's phase change to a gas, but collegen DOES need to hit 160-165* to go through phase change to liquid (just like an ice cube must hit a temp over 32* to change from solid to liquid) you could cook a butt at 160-165* and might finally achieve phase change for the collegen, however the water has already evaporated and the meat is now in dehydration.


As far as Zilla's question about salt making a difference in the duration of the stall, perhaps some of the effects of thermohaline could come into play - thermohaline is usually thought of in reference to ocean currents and the differences in water temp and salinity that cause those currents.

If an increase or decrease in saline and temp in ocean water causes it to flow, then wouldn't/couldn't it cause it to move in meat as well?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermohaline

Hmm... maybe I could be a rocket surgeon... :crazy:

driving off water as vapor is driven by it's vapor pressure, so yes you can evaporate water at a lower temperature than 213* @ sea level, the temperature of the water will not exceed 213* until the water is substanial gone. with the colegen the issue is as much not farking with the protien structure by introducing too much heat either as refelcted in the final cooked temperature while not cooking it for so long as to drive off the moisture.

in reagrds to salininty and or temperature induced currents, i think ithat's more of a density driven issue. increas or decrease temp or salinty (they are both interrelated) you wil change the density and have resultant flow. i think the introduction of salt to the cooking process is again related to vapor pressure. if i remember correctly, as the salinity of water goes up, the vapor pressure goes down.

 

[ZILLA]

I don't know, let me go back and check!

 

[hcj3rd]

Amazing discourse on the subject. I've just opened the thread for the first time and read the entire thing in utter fascination. Thank you gentlemen.

I agree. I have only been cooking BBQ for less than a year and done 7 comps with limited success. I ask alot of questions and pick peoples brains about their methods of cooking and prep of meat. I have learned more reading this thread and your discussion than I would have thought possible and for this I thank each and every one of you.

 

[ZILLA]

Well I may be wrong but the example of the water in the cup seems to fall under local thermodynamic equilibrium because the two materials are not homogenous like a brisket is. :shock:

 

[Dave Russell]

According to this article meat falls under the Global thermodynamic equilibrium properties as all of the various molecules are homogeneous so the general rule of equilibrium must still apply. It's interesting to note that given collagen by itself changes phase between 160* - 180* there is still a variance in stall temps. So other molecules must play a part in each individual brisket.

Let me relay this bit of info. I have a friend in Houston that cooks brisket below 200* for as long as it takes for them to finish. around 18 hrs usually. He has been cooking this way for 20 years or more, very old school. He has also cooked a few thousand briskets, often 25 at a time. He has told me that on occasion he will get briskets that do not get tender even after reaching temp. I have heard this from several cookers over the years and the explanation is "it's just that individual piece of beef". The common thread between them all is they all cooked at around 200*. so I'm beginning to think that cooking hotter may be a better environment to break down the collagen.

I cook at about 250*+ all the time sometime hotter. I never had a brisket that wouldn't get tender.

I'm a little surprised that the average brisket would be done in eighteen hrs if cooked at 200. Mine take about a hour a pound at 225-250. There's a place in Alabama that cooks ribs for 12 hours and pork shoulders for 30, and that's more the time frame I'd expect you'd get for cooking bbq at 200.

Check this out, though: In the new Popular Plates BBQ mag, on pg 13 they claim a place in Texas cooks briskets "at 175 for a few hours, then at a superslow 150 degrees for three days more." That's a bunch of bull. Right? I'd think you'd end up with jerky for sure.

 

[1_T_Scot]

When Making jerky do you take it to or through the stall? I have never made it but it seems and though the little that I have had isn't really tough just dried out. Does it go through the stall really slowly and dehyrdate a good % of water out? Not trying to derail the topic just another thought.

 

[KnucklHed BBQ]

I have a friend in Houston that cooks brisket below 200* for as long as it takes for them to finish. around 18 hrs usually. He has been cooking this way for 20 years or more, very old school. He has also cooked a few thousand briskets, often 25 at a time. He has told me that on occasion he will get briskets that do not get tender even after reaching temp. I have heard this from several cookers over the years and the explanation is "it's just that individual piece of beef". The common thread between them all is they all cooked at around 200*. so I'm beginning to think that cooking hotter may be a better environment to break down the collagen.

I cook at about 250*+ all the time sometime hotter. I never had a brisket that wouldn't get tender.

I think of it kinda like this: Concrete is pretty hard stuff, however, if left to normal environmental elements, it will start to break down. It may take hundreds or thousands of years, but it will eventually break down.

Now, we could observe 2 different pieces of concrete over these break down periods, and they would, with a certainty, not break down at the same rate/time, one might take a span of several years to reach the same point of break-down-ed-ness wink as the other.

If you apply a jackhammer, they will both break down rather quickly. One might still technically take longer to break apart, but the difference might not even be noticed due to the effectiveness of the jackhammer.

Heat is our jackhammer. If you apply the spurs to it (AB mod), I think you're more likely to make sure that all the different components of what makes the piece of meat tough are broken down.

There's kind of a balance though right? 500* is prolly too much spur, whereas 200* might be enough for some, but not enough for others.

I remember Alton Brown talking about cooking some type of pork untill the collegen was melted, then refridgerating it to reheat it later.

The reasoning was that the gelatin would melt at a higher temp when reheated than what the collegen had melted at originally. So what was falling apart when first cooked, would hold together once it was reheated since the gelatin would not melt.

I wonder if this is the reason your friend has briskets that just won't get tender... is the collegen melting and then resolidifying as gelatin, thus giving the appearance that it hasn't rendered everything to a tender point?

If the person readjusted their cooking temps to say, 210*, and adjusted the cooking times, would that be enough to make all of them turn out tender?

 

[ZILLA]

I wonder if this is the reason your friend has briskets that just won't get tender... is the collegen melting and then resolidifying as gelatin, thus giving the appearance that it hasn't rendered everything to a tender point?

If the person readjusted their cooking temps to say, 210*, and adjusted the cooking times, would that be enough to make all of them turn out tender?

You might be right, I have never cooked at such a low temp myself so I don't know. It would be woth a try for a real Low&Slow cooker.

 

[ZILLA]

Upon further exploration on this topic I found this. Could this be why foil works so well in keeping moisture in a brisket and helps speed up the breakdown of collagen? I think it might.


Vapor-liquid equilibrium, is a condition where a liquid and its vapor (gas phase) are in equilibrium with each other, a condition or state where the rate of evaporation (liquid changing to vapor) equals the rate of condensation (vapor changing to liquid) on a molecular level such that there is no net (overall) vapor-liquid interconversion. Although in theory equilibrium takes forever to reach, such an equilibrium is practically reached in a relatively closed location if a liquid and its vapor are allowed to stand in contact with each other long enough with no interference or only gradual interference from the outside.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor-liquid_equilibrium

 

[Dave Russell]

After the stubborn 13.45 lb packer I cooked yesterday, I will gladly use that crutch next time, and call that "Vapor-liquid Equilibrium Crutch" my "brisket insurance". It was the first one I'd done without foil in a long time, and I think it might even be longer before I try it again.

 

[ZILLA]

When Making jerky do you take it to or through the stall? I have never made it but it seems and though the little that I have had isn't really tough just dried out. Does it go through the stall really slowly and dehyrdate a good % of water out? Not trying to derail the topic just another thought.

I think that jerky is smoked at about 90* and is a dehydrated product not a cooked one. So no it does not go through this process.

 

[tbaker30]

Very interesting stuff. Makes for a good read. In the words of Harry Caray, "And who'd a thunk it!"

 

[Mark]

Like I said; there's lots of stuff going on simultaneously. Add "vapor-liquid equilibrium" to the list. And lets not forget the ever present risk of encountering the "old, tough cow" syndrome.

Mark

Upon further exploration on this topic I found this. Could this be why foil works so well in keeping moisture in a brisket and helps speed up the breakdown of collagen? I think it might.


Vapor-liquid equilibrium, is a condition where a liquid and its vapor (gas phase) are in equilibrium with each other, a condition or state where the rate of evaporation (liquid changing to vapor) equals the rate of condensation (vapor changing to liquid) on a molecular level such that there is no net (overall) vapor-liquid interconversion. Although in theory equilibrium takes forever to reach, such an equilibrium is practically reached in a relatively closed location if a liquid and its vapor are allowed to stand in contact with each other long enough with no interference or only gradual interference from the outside.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor-liquid_equilibrium

 

[ZILLA]

I posted that five posts up.

 

[Mark]

I posted that five posts up.

And thus I cited you.

 

[ZILLA]

))))