THE BBQ BRETHREN FORUMS

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At first to see if the judging at Clovis would be roughly the same as here. I thought there would be enough of a cross section of Brethren who cook on teams, CBJ’s who don’t and people who have done neither.

After seeing some of the post regarding why people were scoring down, I tried to figure out why. I took the CBJ class from Ed Roith at The Royal in 2003 before we competed. Granted I was an Oiler then and do not remember everything from that weekend, but I do remember most of that class. I do not remember any instruction for grading the meats based on, how it was cut, or how the sauce was applied, or what color the ribs were. I am serious with these next comments…Maybe things have changed? I am guilty of it myself; I just told the one Brethren that I gave his brisket a 7 because the slices were “wavy”. It appears to me, the some of the people judging this box, judged it based on the way the color of the ribs looked, the cut or some other factor. Where were you taught this? That is now my main concern. Have I been out of the loop? Did I miss something that has changed in judging? We do not have continuing ED. Hell for that matter, I got feed up with KCBS an am no longer a member, so I am an ex-CBJ I guess.

It seems to me I am made to feel my judging is wrong if I do not score down for these issues, but you are right for taking points off. Why is my personal interpretation less valid then yours? Where is the consistency in the training of judges?


Like I said in an earlier post, maybe I am suppose to be judging off for this stuff, but I have not seen anyone show we where it is written!

Thanks for asking Jorge.

Quite honestly Bentley, I'm not sure that any score I give on a box online, is anywhere close to what I would actually score that box at a comp. I have the luxury of looking at the picture for as long as I like where at a comp I have only a fleeting glance.
 
I thought I recognized those ribs! Bent, I gave them a 4 for apperance at Hesperia. But for taste and texture, 9's across the board! :biggrin:
 
Well since Robert shared so will I. Here's our rib turn in from Clovis last weekend. Sorry for the blurry pic, apparently I need some help in the photography dept. The appearance scores were 8 7 7 7 6 8. I feel they were fair. 27th out of 42 teams.
 

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Well since Robert shared so will I. Here's our rib turn in from Clovis last weekend. Sorry for the blurry pic, apparently I need some help in the photography dept. The appearance scores were 8 7 7 7 6 8. I feel they were fair. 27th out of 42 teams.

Well Jason, if I apply what I have learn at the Brethren site I would give you a 6. All 5 ribs are uneven, there is a group of parsely sticking out at the far end of the box, and the sauce is uneven!

If I use my system I give you an 8.
 
Well Jason, if I apply what I have learn at the Brethren site I would give you a 6. All 5 ribs are uneven, there is a group of parsely sticking out at the far end of the box, and the sauce is uneven!

If I use my system I give you an 8.

I agree, those are all thing we try to not do, but as many of you know it's not always easy. The ribs were not even in color before they were even sauced, weird. Out of six racks of ribs, we still didn't get six bones we were happy with. Looking at the pic I'd give them a 6, in person they were worth a 7. Practice, practice, practice!
 
I did spares at Hesperia...IBCA remember! And they were 1st!

Ohhhh yeah, that's right. They were those mushy, "fall off the bone" ribs that win at every IBCA event...it's all coming back to me now! :icon_wink


Just funnin' with ya brother. That was a great event and it was a pleasure to get to know you and Kristin. As I recall, that was the first time you ever entered spares, right?
 
Well Jason, if I apply what I have learn at the Brethren site I would give you a 6. All 5 ribs are uneven, there is a group of parsely sticking out at the far end of the box, and the sauce is uneven!

If I use my system I give you an 8.

Dude, I'd take you as a judge for my product ANY day! Come on seriously! The sarcasm towards the brothers here is a little strong, don't you think? One post you made sticks out... when asked what factors determine what will cause you to score down on an entry, you replied that you don't know until you see a box. How can that be? You have to know what factors you look for! If a careless, rough slice on the ribs isn't an appearance issue, what is it? If sloppy saucing isn't an appearance issue, what would you call that? If throwing garnish isn't appearance, why not? There are many factors that come into play in appearance and I can tell you everything I look for that I consider things that affect appearance scores negatively... burnt meat, dry looking meat, inconsistent sized pieces, sloppy saucing/sauce on the garnish, poor trimming, bad slicing, too dark (burnt?) or too light (not enough rich color or anemic looking), poor balance in the box/symmetry, "out of context" meat (in ribs, brisket and sliced pork, pieces not presented in order as sliced from the meat or ribs from different slabs) and a general lack of effort on the part of the cook to make the whole box look like he had an interest in impressing me. It's not just "Does that entry make me want to eat it?" If the things I listed above don't make you decide whether or not you want to eat it, what the heck does?
 
Ohhhh yeah, that's right. They were those mushy, "fall off the bone" ribs that win at every IBCA event...it's all coming back to me now! :icon_wink


Just funnin' with ya brother. That was a great event and it was a pleasure to get to know you and Kristin. As I recall, that was the first time you ever entered spares, right?


No, have cooked a few IBCA...You are dead on! ..They were, the judges for IBCA are off the street and they got 1st out of 20 teams!
 
Dude, I'd take you as a judge for my product ANY day! Come on seriously! The sarcasm towards the brothers here is a little strong, don't you think? One post you made sticks out... when asked what factors determine what will cause you to score down on an entry, you replied that you don't know until you see a box. How can that be? You have to know what factors you look for! If a careless, rough slice on the ribs isn't an appearance issue, what is it? If sloppy saucing isn't an appearance issue, what would you call that? If throwing garnish isn't appearance, why not? There are many factors that come into play in appearance and I can tell you everything I look for that I consider things that affect appearance scores negatively... burnt meat, dry looking meat, inconsistent sized pieces, sloppy saucing/sauce on the garnish, poor trimming, bad slicing, too dark (burnt?) or too light (not enough rich color or anemic looking), poor balance in the box/symmetry, "out of context" meat (in ribs, brisket and sliced pork, pieces not presented in order as sliced from the meat or ribs from different slabs) and a general lack of effort on the part of the cook to make the whole box look like he had an interest in impressing me. It's not just "Does that entry make me want to eat it?" If the things I listed above don't make you decide whether or not you want to eat it, what the heck does?


Jeff I am trying to be sarcastic! I hear what you are saying, but are you using your experience from cooking or are you applying the rules you have been taught as a CBJ? Does KCBS teach what a judge is suppose to look for in the meat? I am asking, I have ask it several times and no one has given me an answer...I wonder why?
 
I understand why you are scoring down, I would like to know where you learned it? Are you a CBJ? Were you taught in your class to score down for a rib you percieve as being uneven?

Sorry, I dropped out of school.:roll: I judged as to how I would want to be judged. You have to put a little more perspective on how you are being judged on this site. Here, everyone has a lot of time to analyze your entry and nitpick. At a comp, you don't get as much time.

Jason - Scores for appearance were 8, 7, 8 , 7 , 5 , 7.

The "5" judge on presentation also gave me a 6 for taste and 5 for texture. Everyone else was 7's, 8's & 9's.
 
Jeff I am trying to be sarcastic! I hear what you are saying, but are you using your experience from cooking or are you applying the rules you have been taught as a CBJ? Does KCBS teach what a judge is suppose to look for in the meat? I am asking, I have ask it several times and no one has given me an answer...I wonder why?

I have read this thread through and I am going to give this just one shot Bentley.

You simply shouldn't have to have each and every detail spelled out for you.

It's appearance.

It works on judging the appearance of ANYTHING.

Let me demonstrate.

Judge the following 5 photos that I took, for appearance.

10 being the best looking photo you have ever seen

1 being the worst photo you have ever seen.

I am being serious here Bentley.

What would you score them and why?

Think about it.......do I have to tell you every single detail to look for?

Does one look better to you than the other?

Does one (or more) look like chit?

Does one ( or more) look nice to you?

How did you come to that conclusion?

Why did you assign that particular score to it?
 

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I just went back and looked through all my judging material and other than to talk about not judging a brisket based on a smoke ring and garnish is optional, there's nothing really in there about how to judge for appearance that I could find.

I think ZBQ has hit the nail on the head though with his post above though. Very good scenario, by the way. Most of us through life experience have figured out that clean is more appealing than dirty, attractive is more appealing than repulsive, uniform is more appealing than disarray, etc....etc. We have also figured out (while traveling the road of life) the different levels of each to determine which has more (or less) of those qualities.

All those turn in box appearance qualities that have been mentioned here weren't really taught to me in a book, it was learned by judging turn in boxes. And to be honest, by the time I got to my 2nd contest, I had seen what I consider to be a 9 on appearance in each of the categories. What made me give it a 9 is that it looked like it would taste very good and there was nothing else the cook could have done to improve the appearance given what I saw in the box. As I said, it took a couple of contests to figure this out but I believe this is why 1st time judges (and sometimes judges with <5 contests) are separated at contests. It's probably also why the lowest score is dropped too.

I guess during a judging class you could touch on certain appearance things but I believe that people have a certain inherant ability to judge things based on appearance. Actually judging boxes is where you fine tune that ability. I believe that's why "subjectively" and "objectively" are in the oath we take before judging. When you can't apply what you know, you have to apply what you like.
 
Jeff I am trying to be sarcastic! I hear what you are saying, but are you using your experience from cooking or are you applying the rules you have been taught as a CBJ? Does KCBS teach what a judge is suppose to look for in the meat? I am asking, I have ask it several times and no one has given me an answer...I wonder why?

Ed also taught my class about two and a half years ago in St. Louis. Spice was in that class as well. I don't recall hearing specifically what to look for in the appearance area except for sloppiness (which takes in a lot of the problems I mentioned in my post) and things that will result in an appearance DQ. As always, it's going to come down to the opinion of the judge. But all of these things are issues that affect the appearance of the entry and are fair game when it comes to judging. And it comes down to the same as any other criteria in judging... the opinion of the judges. Nowhere does it say what you can and can't use as critieria for ANY of the three judging areas. But I think common sense tells us what types of things makes an entry LOOK good or bad. And every one of the things folks have been mentioning here in this thread are very reasonable and acceptable criterion. You have the right to NOT judge down for sloppy cutting if you don't want to. As someone who is very meticulous about my entries (I would expect 999 from a judge with standards like you use) , I'd like you to always judge MY entries, however, I don't want you anywhere near the entries of someone less meticulous! :wink:
 
I took the same class that Jeff and Spice did - I think RiverCity was there as well.

To me - I would have judge the box to be 8. However, this is what I took from the class.

First - look at the meat and the garnish, make sure the garnish is acceptable and there are at least six indentifiable pieces, is the sauce pooled? If you have a question about either, go ahead and judge it then ask the table captain for a ruling after all containers have been judged for appearance.

Second - Does the meat make me want to grab it and eat it.

Last overall appearance - This is where I think people get WAY TO PICKY! That is when people look at the garnish and think too bunched up in the corner, or I see a lot of white. I think this is wrong in my opinion. I asked ED at the class and he told me to error towards leanacy for the cook.

Just another thing I would like ot bring up on this subject and I will shut up - for those who actually judged, you know that the table captain goens through the box pretty quick. I mean the box is open for maybe a 1/2 minute and show to everyone on both sides of the table. You need to put out your best impression within that 30 seconds.
On the web though you get to stare at it as much as you want. It does make a difference. When I judge I look at the meat and the overall impression. I do nto have time to look at the sides of the box or if all the parcely is leaf side up.

Just my .02
 
I don't have a problem with judges being picky about appearance. If I feel like a cook hasn't taken the time to go any trouble to make his hard work look the best he can, then I don't owe it to them to give them an 8 or 9. Any if I didn't take the time to do likewise as a cook, then I deserve crappy appearance scores.
 
Quite honestly Bentley, I'm not sure that any score I give on a box online, is anywhere close to what I would actually score that box at a comp. I have the luxury of looking at the picture for as long as I like where at a comp I have only a fleeting glance.

You nailed it. I'm planning to write an application that allows submission of box photos for scoring on the Internet. One critical factor that will be required is to only show the image of the box for 3-5 seconds, since that is the amount of time a judge has to examine the box in the real world.

It's easy to pick out all the tiny imperfections when you have all day to review a photo, but when the table captain is sliding that box past you it's a very different impression. I believe this is why folks tend to score photos lower than when judging in the tent on average.
 
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