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I think a lot of people are proving this wrong. Just saying.

Put your cut on a fire about 450+ degrees. The tissues are not gonna break down, and they are gonna be shoeleather.

People saying 325 degrees is fast and hot??? I dont think so. That is still a relatively low cooking temperature.
Pot roast in the oven is cooked at about those temps.

Personally, I find pork to taste different when cooked at 220ish and 350ish.......one tastes like ...well, BBQ...the other like a roast.

Science and chemistry are hard to look away from.
 
I think a lot of people are proving this wrong. Just saying. Today 03:00 PM

Maybe not. It all depends on the definitive temps of the study.. otherwise it's all worthless.
 
It's kinda like putting an engine on the dyno.. if all things are not created equal there will be no established degree of measurement.
 
Put your cut on a fire about 450+ degrees. The tissues are not gonna break down, and they are gonna be shoeleather.
People saying 325 degrees is fast and hot??? I dont think so. That is still a relatively low cooking temperature.
Pot roast in the oven is cooked at about those temps.
Science and chemistry are hard to look away from.

325 degrees IS fast and hot in the BBQ world. We are talking BBQ, not oven. Read what the guy said, that a brisket needs 20 hours to cook. That's not 325 degrees, that's 225 and under. The whole issue of this thread has been 225-250 degree smoking vs hot and fast 325 degree and higher smoking.
A lot of people feel that you can't get a juicy tender brisket or pork butt unless you smoke in the 225-250 range. A lot of people disagree and feel you can accomplish the same in the 325 and higher range. It's obvious from that article (at least to me) that whoever wrote it feels that you can't get a good brisket unless it's in the 225 to 250 range.
 
325 degrees IS fast and hot in the BBQ world. We are talking BBQ, not oven. Read what the guy said, that a brisket needs 20 hours to cook. That's not 325 degrees, that's 225 and under. The whole issue of this thread has been 225-250 degree smoking vs hot and fast 325 degree and higher smoking.....

I really don't care who cooks how. To each their own. But what do you call the range between 250-325? :biggrin: I'd think anything over 250 would be consider hot, not just over 325.

This reminds me of the fatcap up or down thread. When we all know fatcap down is the best.:cool:
 
I really don't care who cooks how. But what do you call the range between 250-325? :biggrin: I'd think anything over 250 would be consider hot, not just over 325.

Actually, that is exactly how I feel. Anything over 250 goes into the "hot" range. It's just that 325 seems to be a common temp for high heat briskets.
 
Read what the guy said, that a brisket needs 20 hours to cook.
Not trying to play the devil's advocate but I have never had a brisket take 20 hrs even (IMO)low and slow. Which brings me back to what temp he defined as low and high IMHO the author was copying off the blackboard. You would have to have multiple pieces of meat of the excact ratio of fat, H2O in muscle, bone mass, etc.... and duplicate cooking enviroments to even begin to conduct such a test yet alone come to an absolute conclusion. It's not rocket science but I guess it could be.
 
I think the short answer is...

You don't have to cook "low and slow" to get good results. You'll get different results, but that don't mean it won't be good...
 
Starting to get a headache, so its off for margaritas with the wifey. I think the one thing we ALL agree on, is that without numbers, it's hard to tell what the author is trying to say. Is he saying that anything over 250 degrees is going to result in tough, dry meat, or anything over 450 degrees?
Since he did state that ribs take 5 hours and brisket takes 20 (which we also all agree is almost never the case), I feel that the author is of the school that anything over 250 degrees is going to result in tough meat. And in that I disagree.
OK, im out.
 
just remember the type of pit he is using... a water pan style smoker..

read here http://www.jacksoldsouth.com/cookers/
I've been BBQ'ing competitively since 1996. The first cooker I ever used was a water pan cooker built by Jimmy Maxey. Fourteen years later, I'm cooking on water pan smokers built by his son and my partner, Jim Maxey. These cookers are built solid and are dependable for travel up and down the highways or for many years of use in the back yard. But, when you can tenderize your meat while you're BBQ'ing with boiling water and apple juice, well I call that a match made in heaven. These cookers have no cold or hot spots. They cook even through the whole cook. You can get more cooker for your dollar here than any where else, plus they win. So give 'em a try. I wonder if using the same smoker all these years had any thing to do with me winning?
... Myron Mixon

On the All Star BBQ Showdown he was cooking on a Horizon Marshall.
 
LOL of the hundreds of cookers I have met between 1983 and 2001 and the thousands of people on ere that have commented over the years ... thousands... and of all the resturants I have been to....

I can count on my hand while holding a teacup all the people I have ever known that cook brisket OR shoulder for 20 hours.... TWO... and Joe's in Alvin is one and its awful.

So if you wanna cook a brisket 20 hours it is my duty to taste it even beyond going back to the Meccas of Texas if only to give that person a benefit of the doubt (mind you as many who claim to be experts gave my methods a try because I am hot and fast). It is my duty. But 20 hours is more about either ego or lies than good Q or truth in my opinion. No offense meant.

I have had great low and slow Qs at 12 hours but nothing past 15 was any good as I recall... there were some that claimed to be 20 hours but the person lied.... or counted the holding time. LOL

To the person calling me to place my meat on a 450 degree pit....if its is brisket or Clod, I take it you have never been to any of the Texas Meccas. It is a common claim, often read and then recited as dogma, from someone who has not been there or eaten at any of the true hot and fast joints (to which I am saying hot and fast even I would not try. Although my 40 pound shoulder clods are done at 450 and tender and juicy but have long rest periods.

Starting to get a headache, so its off for margaritas with the wifey. I think the one thing we ALL agree on, is that without numbers, it's hard to tell what the author is trying to say. Is he saying that anything over 250 degrees is going to result in tough, dry meat, or anything over 450 degrees?
Since he did state that ribs take 5 hours and brisket takes 20 (which we also all agree is almost never the case), I feel that the author is of the school that anything over 250 degrees is going to result in tough meat. And in that I disagree.
OK, im out.
 
I think a lot of people are proving this wrong. Just saying.

This is just a cut and paste that people may find informative.



About Collagen Breakdown In Meat ***See Directions*** 1John Isenhouer asked for a thesis on collagen. It won't take a thesis to discuss the process as it relates to BBQ.2Meats are made of muscle, connective tissue, fat and bone. Muscle contains proteins and glycogen. As the temperature of the meat increases, glycogen, a long chain sugar, is reduced to simple sugars. This caramelizes and is responsible for one of the flavor components.3Proteins (flavorless) are denatured to amino acids which not only have flavors themselves, but undergo Maillard browning reactions which adds another flavor component.4While bone adds no flavor itself, the marrow is rich in methyglobulin and other proteins. This reacts with smoke nitrites to give us the smoke ring. You may have heard that "the sweetest meat is next to the bone". The proteins are reduced to amino acids. Nutrasweet is an amino acid.5Fat is very simple cells which breakdown to sugars, fatty acids, and triglycerides at low temperatures.6Collagen is proteins that have lots of side chain bonds. This makes them elastic. It takes more energy to denature them than the simpler proteins of muscle tissue. Energy in the form of heat will denature these proteins into the flavorful amino acids.7If the temperature is too high, the water in the muscle cells and the fat is rendered out before the collagen melts. This results in dry, tough meat. Too low and you risk bacterial activity.8Tough cuts of meat like brisket and pork butts benefit from low temperature cooking as the collagen adds flavor to the meat. Less tough, more expensive cuts do not need this phase and can be cooked at high temperatures for shorter periods. That is why ribs take only a few hours and briskets take 20.

Briskets and Butts are not even in the same catagory in this regard. They should not be lumped together. A butt can withstand alot of abuse in the pit without ruining it. A brisket cannot.

Hot and fast can work on a brisket "to a point" and then, at some Time/Temp combination you cross the point of diminishing returns and dry a brisket out, Unless it is injected with chemicals to force the retention of moisture in the cell structure.

This conversation continues to vasilate between untreated meats and treated meats. At that point it's apples and oranges.
 
And the Bell Curve would say, Boil them ribs in plenty of liquid smoke and bake them in the oven at 450 degrees, just like it's sposed to be done! Naw that's real bar b que.....
 
Well although MY grandmother could actually do a great prime rib in the microwave (took longer than conventional oven) I assumed no one would suggest this.... Nuking goes from inside out... which in essense is against every other type of traditional cooking principle....

so No... don;'t nuke it.

Also we are talking about texture and tenderness not flavor (not because you cannot get it) so no... don't cook it in the oven and then set it in there.

Technically.... keep it at the stall untill the fat turns to jelly and the probe feel is right.


Sorry there Funk, poor choice of words. I didn't mean nuke as in microwave. I meant cooking as hot as you want (within reason) until you hit the stall.

When you say; "keep it at the stall untill the fat turns to jelly and the probe feels right". With a hot and fast method won't you blow through the stall more quickly? Or should the house temp be lowered once in the stall to maintain more time at the stall temp. I'm starting to get confused! :confused:

Thanks,
 
Confused? Comon....keep up keep up. :lol: What's there to be confused about. You need to go and watch all Popdaddy's videos on You Tube. Great stuff.
 
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