Garnish

[Rusty Kettle]

I disagree 100%. Lettuce makes a great box, too, but parsley is not "gone." I don't find it that difficult to make a nice parsley box.

Yeah a lot people say that they like parsley. I just find I can't make a nice parsley box. Don't get me wrong if you can do it go for it. I know I can't make one to save my life. I have seen plenty of nice parsley boxes.

My parsley boxes always looked like chit. My lettuce boxes are so much easier and they just look so much better. For my skill level lettuce is the way to go. I am never going back to parsley.

I think either can look nice but it depends on what you are able to pull off.

Also, what about parsley sticking to food? I think it would be annoying to judges. Lettuce doesn't stick to food like parsley.

Have you tried building a lettuce box? If you have and it doesn't work more power to you with parsley. If not build one or two and see if you like it better. For us it is easier and looks better than our parsley boxes and I don't spend hours building parsley boxes.

It was the one thing I will say I am honestly grateful that we were taught.
I don't ever have to build another parsley box and I am so happy about that.

 

[Skip]

I absolutley disagree with your statement "As much as people like to say it you can't ignore the garnish...even if you aren't marking it you can't ignore the garnish. As a normal thinking, rule understanding adult, you most certainly can, and must ignore the garnish when scoring KCBS competition entries. It is not the least bit difficult all that needs to happen is to train your mind to do it. After a few contests it becomes second nature. Do you see the garnish? Of course you do, do you let it be considered in affixing a score to the entry, no. Do we see a smoke ring? Sure we do but the rule states smoke ring shall not be considered in determining the appearence score. What's so hard to understand here?

Garnish, if used, shall not be used in determinig the appearence score.
Give us judges a little credit.
Ed

I give all judges, and you specifically, a lot of credit. I think you are confusing scoring the entry and scoring the garnish. Presentation is just that and what you judges mark on. Its the nature of "do I wish to eat this?". How do you not consider the enhanced presentation of a well manicured box? If that meat were buried in the garnish you wouldn't be able to mark the meat as well as if it were staged correctly. A box of meat tossed together will not appear the same a a neatly placed box. Every point of appearance is based on how well its presented.

I think even your fellow judges would wonder how you mark meat for appearance by ignoring the smoke ring or the presentation. Unless you introduce smell into your criteria I would truly like to hear your process. (said with no sarcasm or rhetoric). My take on the "don't mark for these" item seemed to be more about adding marking point because of it. If I marked an appearance score using the smoke ring as a basis of moving my score from a 7 to an 8 then I am wrong. If I immediately give a 9 because its a great parsley bed than yes. But if both items add to the general appearance score as a judged item than I am not ignoring them just not weighting them.

 

[Rusty Kettle]

I am sure that they did improve as I know how well Diva can make a box but I will venture to say that your marks went up because of what she taught you about fire management and cooking technique that subtly changed your whole approach. Once you improve your texture score your taste scores follow.

Could be. Her class was fantastic. I would venture to say she is a bbq genius. Best money I have ever spent on any class. I got so much out of the class. For $400 for me and my wife it was an absolute bargain.

 

[rookiedad]

I disagree 100%. Lettuce makes a great box, too, but parsley is not "gone." I don't find it that difficult to make a nice parsley box.

one worriesome thing about parsley is that it can affect your taste scores if not removed when stuck to the meat. this in itself is reason for me for it to be reduced or even banned as a garnish. as long as garnish affects scores (which we all kind of agree it does) then it is no longer a bbq contest, but a bbq/garnish contest. in order for it to be a true bbq contest garnish needs to be level. one sprig of parsley in one corner is all that should be allowed. even a bed of baked beans, corn bread or four pieces of white bread makes more sense from a strictly bbq point of view!

 

[Skip]

Could be. Her class was fantastic. I would venture to say she is a bbq genius. Best money I have ever spent on any class. I got so much out of the class. For $400 for me and my wife it was an absolute bargain.

I am going to say genius is the wrong word and I know some will think I am being insulting but its quite the contrary. Genius to me implies a natural gift and an ease of display. I think what you are going for is a master. A journeyman of BBQ who put in their 10,000 hours to move from apprentice to jack/journeyman to master of their craft. I'd hate to see hard work and time discounted.

 

[Skip]

one worriesome thing about parsley is that it can affect your taste scores if not removed when stuck to the meat. this in itself is reason for me for it to be reduced or even banned as a garnish. as long as garnish affects scores (which we all kind of agree it does) then it is no longer a bbq contest, but a bbq/garnish contest. in order for it to be a true bbq contest garnish needs to be level. one sprig of parsley in one corner is all that should be allowed. even a bed of baked beans, corn bread or four pieces of white bread makes more sense from a strictly bbq point of view!

This is an argument that has been around for a while. The "its not a BBQ contest its a garnish contest" argument. We have to first remember how light the appearance scores are in the scheme of marking. Appearance is nothing more that a tie breaker for the best cue on the table. Its not a make or break your food its a filing for the top performers on the table. But to ban garnish isn't the answer. By banning the garnish but continuing the appearance category of judging you are providing the same handicap you wished to remove only doing so upon those you felt had an added gain from garnish. By taking away a known technique you hamstring the competitor who is proficient. If the idea of pretty boxes is the issue or the advantage that garnish may or may not offer maybe we should just remove the appearance judging altogether so that there is no question of the meat being judged.

 

[tduffy]

Parsley is a thing of the past. We had a great team show us how to build lettuce boxes last November at the National BBQ Cup, and we practiced it a few times over the winter till we got a good system down we felt good about. We build all four boxes with lettuce now, and it takes about 20 mins to build all four, so your comment about spending less time on it is totally valid; we spend less time fussing over greens and more time focusing on product.

Every competition we've been to this year, we have shown a newer team how we build our boxes because parsley is just a waste of everyone's darn time! :biggrin1:

Completely disagree. Still more teams using parsley here than lettuce.

 

[Rusty Kettle]

I am going to say genius is the wrong word and I know some will think I am being insulting but its quite the contrary. Genius to me implies a natural gift and an ease of display. I think what you are going for is a master. A journeyman of BBQ who put in their 10,000 hours to move from apprentice to jack/journeyman to master of their craft. I'd hate to see hard work and time discounted.

I get what your saying but that's a bit picky about words. I am in no way discounting what she does by saying she is a bbq genius. It is a compliment.

 

[accuseal]

It's like judging a picture by its frame. The frame hopefully makes the picture itself more appealing and sets it off from its environment. You would not hear someone say that they didn't like a famous painting because of the frame. The garnish is there to enhance and focus your eye on the meat.

 

[J&B'sBBQ]

Completely disagree. Still more teams using parsley here than lettuce.

Guess that's a problem for your region then! :mrgreen: (j/k). I see parsley going by the wayside as people figure out more efficient ways to build boxes. Lettuce is beautiful and much less time consuming than parsley. Also, as others have mentioned, you do not get the flavor impact concern as much with lettuce because it is less likely to stick to your meat than all those little pieces of parsley.

I am not a judge so I cannot comment on the number of lettuce vs. parsley boxes coming across the tables in the SE, but as I speak to other teams, there are very very few still using parsley as their main garnish or at all.

 

[J&B'sBBQ]

I disagree 100%. Lettuce makes a great box, too, but parsley is not "gone." I don't find it that difficult to make a nice parsley box.

I didn't say it was gone, I said it was a thing of the past...meaning, it's a dated garnish process and more and more people are moving away from it. In our region, more and more people use lettuce as their main base every week.

Not difficult, but much more time consuming than lettuce. I can build a beautiful parsley box, and it is not hard to do, but why spend that much time when I can still hit all 9's in appearance with lettuce and spend 1/4th of the time on boxes? I can focus on the more important things like the meat when I'm not fiddling with parsley. Also, when it comes to boxing on Saturday, if you need to adjust the meat once it's set, you don't have to worry about the parsley getting all out of whack and sticking to the meat as you move it.

 

[Rusty Kettle]

I didn't say it was gone, I said it was a thing of the past...meaning, it's a dated garnish process and more and more people are moving away from it. In our region, more and more people use lettuce as their main base every week.

Not difficult, but much more time consuming than lettuce. I can build a beautiful parsley box, and it is not hard to do, but why spend that much time when I can still hit all 9's in appearance with lettuce and spend 1/4th of the time on boxes? I can focus on the more important things like the meat when I'm not fiddling with parsley. Also, when it comes to boxing on Saturday, if you need to adjust the meat once it's set, you don't have to worry about the parsley getting all out of whack and sticking to the meat as you move it.

Yeah being able to move the meat is nice. We did that with our rib box in VA. I moved the original back row to the front row and sprayed some water on the spots with sauce to rinse off the lettuce.

All the lettuce stayed in place while we adjusted the arrangement.

I could never have done that with parsley. It would have been better to not move it around after it was set.

 

[cpw]

Every competition we've been to this year, we have shown a newer team how we build our boxes because parsley is just a waste of everyone's darn time! :biggrin1:

Are you going to be in Athens in August? Id love to be the new team you show how to build boxes. :biggrin1:

 

[J&B'sBBQ]

Are you going to be in Athens in August? Id love to be the new team you show how to build boxes. :biggrin1:

Yes we will be!!! We will happily show you (even if you aren't a "new team :wink! David, our third team member, is the ones that build our boxes and he loves showing people how to do it :biggrin1:. Curly Tails showed us in Cumming and we feel a need to share the love around...

Either we'll find you on Friday or you can come find us and we'll show you what we do.

 

[tduffy]

Guess that's a problem for your region then! :mrgreen: (j/k). I see parsley going by the wayside as people figure out more efficient ways to build boxes. Lettuce is beautiful and much less time consuming than parsley. Also, as others have mentioned, you do not get the flavor impact concern as much with lettuce because it is less likely to stick to your meat than all those little pieces of parsley.

I am not a judge so I cannot comment on the number of lettuce vs. parsley boxes coming across the tables in the SE, but as I speak to other teams, there are very very few still using parsley as their main garnish or at all.

Apparently I'm missing something then because the time I tried to build a lettuce box I found it a giant pain and gave up.

 

[Rusty Kettle]

Apparently I'm missing something then because the time I tried to build a lettuce box I found it a giant pain and gave up.

Really? I love lettuce. I can't build a parsley box that looks good at all. My guess is if someone showed you how it would be no trouble for you at all.

If I can do it anyone and I mean anyone can do it.

If we are ever at a contest together stop and say hi and I will show you what I do. I am an amateur but I think I can build a darn good lettuce box.

If the garnish is unfolding use a water bottle to hold it in place and move it from left to right as you build the box. It helps.

 

[Alexa RnQ]

Lettuce, parsley, meh. If done well, either will do. It's easy to build a parsley mat that doesn't come up with the meat, so taste is a nonissue.

People obsess like crazy over garnish because it's one of the things they can look at in pictures afterward, but once you learn how to keep the garnish in the bottom of the box where it belongs, it's still a meat contest.

 

[cpw]

Yes we will be!!! We will happily show you (even if you aren't a "new team :wink! David, our third team member, is the ones that build our boxes and he loves showing people how to do it :biggrin1:. Curly Tails showed us in Cumming and we feel a need to share the love around...

Either we'll find you on Friday or you can come find us and we'll show you what we do.

Awesome. Look forward to the lesson (and meeting the team!)

 

[bbq.tom]

I am not a judge so I cannot comment on the number of lettuce vs. parsley boxes coming across the tables in the SE, but as I speak to other teams, there are very very few still using parsley as their main garnish or at all.

Hey Beth, as a judge in the SE I'll weigh in on this - while I am seeing more and more lettuce boxes and fewer parsley boxes, it is still about 50/50.

One additional negative about parsley as a garnish, is that if the meat is placed on the parsley extremely hot, you can get parsley flavor transference - i.e., the oils or whatever in the parsley affect the flavor of the meat.

 

[Pole D]

Yes we will be!!! We will happily show you (even if you aren't a "new team :wink! David, our third team member, is the ones that build our boxes and he loves showing people how to do it :biggrin1:. Curly Tails showed us in Cumming and we feel a need to share the love around...

Either we'll find you on Friday or you can come find us and we'll show you what we do.

Any chance of some pics or a video? :yo: