Fish Sauce

[Cook]

Kevin (Moderator Kevin) was looking for simple clean ways to add umami, fish sauce does this while avoiding soy, MSG, preservatives, added sugar or odd products you do not know how to pronounce.

So you're saying fish sauce lacks glutamate? Just askin'.

 

[landarc]

So you're saying fish sauce lacks glutamate? Just askin'.

No, I am not saying that, I should have been more precise. And Rob, whose background is chemistry can really answer this better. It has no added, refined or manufactured Monosodium glutamates. The amino acid glutamic acid, or glutamates (for freehand reference) does exist in fish sauce, as it does in cheese, tomatoes, red wine and meat and a thousand other foods. However, this particular product does not add any form of manufactured glutamic acid (MSG, hydrolyzed wheat, yeast nutrient etc...)

Hopefully Rob will kick in some hard science here. But, if you have an allergy to any form of glutamic acid, this is not for you, and I am sorry for you. If you are sensitive to MSG, this product will affect you the same way things like parmesan cheese, soy sauce or walnuts would affect you.

 

[SmokeJumper]

There is no MSG added to our product. But like Bob said naturally fermented foods like parmesan cheese, soy sauce, and fish sauce do contain free glutamates and a certain percentage of those glutamates can have sodium bound.

The effects of MSG are so debatable and patient specific that a good guideline is to first avoid MSG that is added to foods if you know you are having symptoms and then slowly phase out other sources of free glutamates if the symptoms persist.

 

[chicagokp]

Ash, Asian food is actually pretty straightforward, feel free to ask questions, Rob or I, and apparently Cappazoli are pretty well versed. And I love the research. I notice one of you must have punched Robs 'inner scientist button' and hit his 'business man button' as well.

So, do you have any fav's that you could share how you put together? Something besides phở?

Just simple searching for me found this and a few recipies I'd like to try out. http://www.vietnamese-recipes.com/

 

[landarc]

Well, I have been using fish sauce in the same manner that my family has used similar products for as long as I know. A general guideline is that it is used very similarly to soy sauce. I use it in many marinades and sauces, including things like Japanese marinades, soups, sauces (teriyaki sauce is a good target for this stuff). It is such a powerful source of umami, I liken it to the dashi that Japanese use to flavor everything.

But, I also use it in ketchup, BBQ sauce, stir fry dishes, vegetable dishes, casseroles etc...cut out the salt and add fish sauce, it will add the salt, increase the sense of sweetness and add umami. Here is something I highly recommend you try to understand the effect of fish sauce. You use this as a mop or spray while grilling or smoking meats. This kills on chicken and pork.

Pig Honey Sauce
1 cup apple juice
1/4 cup Red Boat Fish Sauce
1/4 cup Braggs Amino Acids
1/8 cup Honey
1 Tablespoon turbinado sugar

Combine all ingredients and bring to just short of a boil, maintain heat until sugar is dissolved. See above for use. I believe it is important not to boil this mixture as I believe the boil process will cause the proteins to denature and not function in the manner I want it to work. I have also become aware of the loss of character that fish sauce can suffer when excessively boiled. I am starting to think it needs to be added late in the cooking process, although I have not discussed this with any scientists. You should end up with something that looks like this

 

[SmokeJumper]

A few more pics of food from Vietnam:
Cooking and eating out of the communal hotpot with friends. The pot was chock full of fresh vegetables, herbs, and seafood.

I washed many a meal down with a refreshing iced sugar cane juice blended with citrus. This was my favorite stand in Saigon. Every evening when it cooled down we walk out of our hotel and visit this great lady for our nightly fix.

A dinner with friends. Somehow every person always thought that I would want to drink Heineken which is the "premium" beer choice of Vietnam which is actually brewed locally. I always had to fight to get a real Vietnamese local brew.

Wok Tossed Phu Quoc Squid

Another of my Vietnamese favorites - Banh Xeo or Vietnamese Crepe which is the pinnacle of the fusion cuisine resulting from French occupation. Bun Xeo are made out of rice flour, eggs, coconut milk, and tumeric batter and cooked light and crispy in wok. They are typically stuffed with seafood, meats, and veggies and the crepe is wrapped in a lettuce leaf with herbs and dipped in nuoc cham made with fish sauce.

 

[landarc]

Here is Pig Honey on Chicken...

This was done indoors and the pig honey was used as both marinade and a fresh batch for glazing.

 

[landarc]

Another idea, and this is really good. Steak cubes in Asian inspired sauce.

Now this recipe was originally chronicled on my blog, and I was out of fish sauce, so I built the sauce. However, if I had not given my last bottle away to my sister, I would have changed it.

X-faux Sauce: Original
1/4 cup shrimp shell and prawn broth
2 tablespoons Hoisin Sauce
1 tablespoon Peach Habanero sauce
1 teaspoon Oyster Sauce
Whisk together to combine. I believe this sauce will work best cooked once with the meat and vegetables.

X-faux Sauce: w/ Red Boat
1/8 cup Red Boat fish sauce
1/8 cup water
2 tablespoons Hoisin Sauce
1 tablespoon Peach Habanero sauce
1 teaspoon Oyster Sauce
Whisk together to combine. I believe this sauce will work best cooked once with the meat and vegetables.

 

[landarc]

Oh, and uh, hey Gore

I am lying on this one, nobody else but Gore should try this, and maybe Phubar.

 

[chicagokp]

Wow, will have to try. What's the significance of using Amino Acid's? That's not a super common ingredient.

 

[landarc]

My sister makes chicken kabobs with these that are a huge hit with her hubby and kids (disclaimer, one is a 14 year old boy and he can eat).

She relies on adding 1 to 2 tablespoons to any marinade she uses, it adds more chicken to chicken, more pork to pork. With the Red Boat, she eliminates both salt and sugar from most of her recipes, sometimes adding a bit of agave syrup.

 

[SmokeJumper]

So, do you have any fav's that you could share how you put together? Something besides phở?
[/URL]

How about a super simple meat marinade for grilling.

2 Tbs fish sauce
1 Tbs white sugar or honey
1 Tbs high smoke point oil (peanut, grapeseed etc.)
1 garlic clove finely minced
A squirt of sri racha or your favorite hot sauce
Healthy dose of fresh cracked pepper

Whisk together ingredients, throw your thin cut meats on this, marinate for 20 minutes, throw on a hot grill and flash sear on both sides. The meat can be skewered too to make sate. It doesn't get easier or better. Some fun twists include adding minced lemongrass, ginger, galanga, or pounded chiles. Also great served with the nuoc cham (recipe posted earlier in thread).

 

[deguerre]

Can't wait til October Rob!

 

[chicagokp]

landarc and Rob - Thanks for all the great info and ideas so far. Now I can't wait for my order to arrive so I can start trying some new things out.

I really appreciate all the info.

 

[SmokeJumper]

I must say that this gave me an interesting idea to play around with some time.

Let me guess, something to do with Baloney. Did I get in your head??

Oh and if you ever need someone for locals to point and snicker at while your on a business trip, feel free to include me. :laugh:

Tom, I have never laughed AT you. But when we hang out I think I laugh WITH you constantly. It is might dream to take friends with me on upcoming trips to Vietnam and we are preparing the factory for tours. Could this be the next location for BigButz sauce sales?

 

[Cook]

I'll keep the Red Boat in mind when the other couple of open bottles of fish sauce I have are near empty. Just can't keep piling it up in the fridge. LOL

 

[OakPit]

I'm following along Rob - this sounds like an amazing project that has crazy upside potential. Great conversation about Red Boat & black pepper with Landarc last week.

We're taking the BBQ element and twisting it foodie style to get a really cool hybrid shop - I'd love to have this on the shelves.

 

[Capozzoli]

Smoke jumper, I see you use palm sugar in your nouc cham sauce. Ill have to try that. Have you ever used caramelized sugar?

That is the other secret ingredient of Vietnamese cooking but
I have struggled with consistency making it.

Great ingredient to use with bbq as well.

 

[SmokeJumper]

Smoke jumper, I see you use palm sugar in your nouc cham sauce. Ill have to try that. Have you ever used caramelized sugar?

That is the other secret ingredient of Vietnamese cooking but
I have struggled with consistency making it.

Great ingredient to use with bbq as well.

Capozzoli, as far as I know palm sugar is not typically used in nuoc cham as white sugar works quite well and is typically used in the modern Viet kitchen. I really like the depth of flavor and bit of fruitiness that palm sugar provides in my nuoc cham. It is also one of my "secret" ingredients in bbq as it really promotes caramelization and depth of flavor - not unlike brown sugar.

I have made caramelized sugar for Ca Kho - caramelized clay pot fish. I think this dish is one of the most complex and interesting dishes in the classic Vietnamese repertoire for highlighting the flavors of fish sauce. It is like crack when you make it with Red Boat. I strongly recommend against using pre-made Asian caramel sauces as they have off flavors and strange ingredients. It's easy to make if you practice a couple of times and so good!

Carmel sauce preparation will be different with every type of pan, heat source, and sugar type you use so master with one set of variables and then start playing. My secret is to have a larger pot of ice water available so I can stop the caramelization in less than one second and I shoot for a dark orange color when using white sugar. For a good tutorial on caramel making check out Andrea Nguyen's Viet World Kitchen. For an outstanding claypot recipe check out the Ravenous Couple Blog.

Both these sites are a wealth of information on Vietnamese cooking and I find the Ravenous Couple nails amazing recipes every time.

 

[Capozzoli]

Awesome, thanks for those tips and links.

Clay pot cooking is fantastic I need a new one. I love making this dish - (cant remember the name in Vietnamese) it is a simple mixture of pork, green coconut water, fish sauce, carmalized sugar and scallions. Roasted by the coals in a clay pot, it is one of the most wonderful dishes in the word! Cant wait to try the Red Boat in that.

At our local Vietnamese joint they are very friendly, they have been trying to convince us to try one of their specialties. Its not on the menu but it is a mixture of chopped ducks organs served raw in ducks blood. From what I can gather the mixture is cured with lime.

I haven't tried it yet, but I am gonna. Im pretty confident with its freshness because they own a fresh kill chicken and duck place next door. When you order the duck blood dish they kill a duck to make it.

Just thought that was interesting.