Contest Judging

[Gadragonfly]

Ok... I finally judged my first contest this weekend at the Sam's Club contest in Marietta, GA. I knew that I was going to learn from the experience, but I had no idea how much fun it was going to be, or the wealth of knowledge that was at hand. Thanks to Dave of Uncle Bud's BBQ for mentoring, and thanks to all the experienced judges that spent time with me.

Noah,

I enjoyed sitting next to you this past weekend and discussing the entries and getting your perspective on what was turned in. It seemed that we both had very similar ideas of what we liked and disliked about the product we judged, albeit I think we were maybe 1 score off from each other when scores were lower than an 8 (I believe you gave 7s on the few occasions that I gave 6's). I remember the two entries that had a definite acrid taste and your realization that yes there is a difference in taste. I enjoyed listening to you and Dave discuss the entries and the changes that you would make to your future entries based on what you learned. I hope we have the opportunity to judge together again sometime soon.

Julie

 

[nmayeux]

Noah,

I enjoyed sitting next to you this past weekend and discussing the entries and getting your perspective on what was turned in. It seemed that we both had very similar ideas of what we liked and disliked about the product we judged, albeit I think we were maybe 1 score off from each other when scores were lower than an 8 (I believe you gave 7s on the few occasions that I gave 6's). I remember the two entries that had a definite acrid taste and your realization that yes there is a difference in taste. I enjoyed listening to you and Dave discuss the entries and the changes that you would make to your future entries based on what you learned. I hope we have the opportunity to judge together again sometime soon.

Julie

Julie, you were the best, and it was a pleasure to learn from a pro! I also look forward to seeing you again, and thanks again for all the insight!

 

[sdbbq1234]

Good to see some posts about judging. My wife and I have been judging for over a year now. There have been times when we filled out comment cards for anything that was a 5 or under. That has been the "rule" by the KCBS reps at all the comps.

Also, it seems kinda funny that the more we judge, the more brisket entries we taste are more and more like pot roast. I think everyone is getting on the "heavy meat injections" band wagon. We sometimes feel that the taste of beef is lost.

wallace

 

[CBQ]

Although we like to complain about judges here (9 9 8 9 9 4 on appearance? wtf?) I judge at least one contest a year. I think every cook should judge now and then, and having master judge's cook once is also something I fully support. My observation: judging fairly is more challenging than one might think, and I have a lot of respect for judges that take it seriously and try to get it right.

The first time I judged, before the judging started there was a long discussion about judging philosophy and flavor profiles. It was an interesting conversation, and I was pleased to see how seriously some of the judges took the contest.

I just want to say thank you to all the judges out there that put in the effort to do it well.

 

[tigerpaw]

! I filled out a comment card last Saturday for an "8" as the brisket slice was clearly a "9", but the BE they included was horrible (tough and bitter)! The cooks DESERVE to know when something like that happens! IMHO![/QUOTE]

I have a question for you and all others on that comment. I had a similar experience with a burnt end ( ALL 100% gristle) Even had Contest Rep come to see it so he could tell team what he saw. I had brisket at a 9. But the burnt end was a 2. I halved the score giving team a 6. (rounded up.)

You seem to have scored it much higher or your end was a 7 and the brisket a 9 for a average of 8.

My question is which way is correct? You are supposed to try as well as score EVERYTHING in the box so how is a proper way to score BBQ from heaven along with dog would run away from home if fed to him in same box?

 

[tigerpaw]

! I filled out a comment card last Saturday for an "8" as the brisket slice was clearly a "9", but the BE they included was horrible (tough and bitter)! The cooks DESERVE to know when something like that happens! IMHO!

I have a question for you and all others on that comment. I had a similar experience with a burnt end ( ALL 100% gristle) Even had Contest Rep come to see it so he could tell team what he saw. I had brisket at a 9. But the burnt end was a 2. I halved the score giving team a 6. (rounded up.)

You seem to have scored it much higher or your end was a 7 and the brisket a 9 for a average of 8.

My question is which way is correct? You are supposed to try as well as score EVERYTHING in the box so how is a proper way to score BBQ from heaven along with dog would run away from home if fed to him in same box?[/QUOTE]

And yes I filled out card explaining had I not had this piece of gristle they would have received a 9.

 

[porkingINpublic]

I'm not big on judges right now... Just got home from a comp and my ribs got a 7,6,6, from one judge and a 9,9,9, from another!!! Ugh! :mad2:

 

[SirPorkaLot]

I'm not big on judges right now... Just got home from a comp and my ribs got a 7,6,6, from one judge and a 9,9,9, from another!!! Ugh! :mad2:

Welcome to KCBS competitions. Lol
I regularly get 9,9,8,5, 8
Or some goofiness.

I had one judge write on comment card for ribs. One word:

Perfect!

Scored the ribs an 8.

Huh?

 

[porkingINpublic]

Welcome to KCBS competitions. Lol
I regularly get 9,9,8,5, 8
Or some goofiness.

I had one judge write on comment card for ribs. One word:

Perfect!

Scored the ribs an 8.

Huh?

Oh that would make me crazy! Lol.

 

[Gowan]

2 items to discuss here.

First, CivilWarBBQ. I agree that the rep should have tried to replace a judge who gave a 4 and wouldn't explain it. But the judge did not have to fill out a comment card, just explain to the rep why they gave the score. Then the rep needed to act. But the organizer should never be involved in the judging process. Once judging starts its up to the reps. An organizer can talk to reps after the judging is complete and see if there were issues and the rep may say yes and here's the name of the judge. Then next year the organizer can not let the person judge.

Yes, a comment card is not required, but an explanation of the score is. Taste is one thing - all the judge has to do is say "I didn't like it", but Tenderness is less subjective and there must be a specific reason for giving a four.

Thankfully we have solid Reps available so that I've never had to step in at a contest where I am acting as organizer. However, if the situation called for it I would in a heartbeat. I've done so in the past when serving as a Table Captain when I saw something bad happening at another table. No, it "wasn't my job", but I firmly believe it is the responsibility of everyone involved in the judging tent to step up and bring a problem to the attention of the Reps immediately - not sit back passively and wait for it to be noticed.

The Reps always make the call and take any action, but they can be everywhere and see everything and need the rest of us to act as extra eyes and ears..

 

[Smoke Ring]

Welcome to KCBS competitions. Lol
I regularly get 9,9,8,5, 8
Or some goofiness.

I had one judge write on comment card for ribs. One word:

Perfect!

Scored the ribs an 8.

Huh?

I suggested that KCBS should focus on the problem of inconsistent judging and a board member replied that it is inconsistent cooking, not inconsistent judging. At a certain level a KCBS contest is a crap shoot because there is luck involved in which table your entry lands on. Yes, you have to know how to cook but that isn't enough, there is still the luck factor.

This weekend we finished 18th in chicken and 13th in pork. At the last contest we took 1st in pork. The boxes were as close to identical as two boxes could be. What was the difference? This week 4 judges gave us all 8s and 9s and two judges gave us 6s and 7s in pork and chicken. At the previous contest the same thing happened in brisket.

I'm considering giving up competition and just buying a lottery ticket instead. KCBS needs to re-evaluate their judging process. The current process doesn't necessarily identify the best entry. If winning involves luck as well as skill then that's a problem IMHO.

Garry

 

[Fat Freddy]

I suggested that KCBS should focus on the problem of inconsistent judging and a board member replied that it is inconsistent cooking, not inconsistent judging. At a certain level a KCBS contest is a crap shoot because there is luck involved in which table your entry lands on. Yes, you have to know how to cook but that isn't enough, there is still the luck factor.

This weekend we finished 18th in chicken and 13th in pork. At the last contest we took 1st in pork. The boxes were as close to identical as two boxes could be. What was the difference? This week 4 judges gave us all 8s and 9s and two judges gave us 6s and 7s in pork and chicken. At the previous contest the same thing happened in brisket.

I'm considering giving up competition and just buying a lottery ticket instead. KCBS needs to re-evaluate their judging process. The current process doesn't necessarily identify the best entry. If winning involves luck as well as skill then that's a problem IMHO.

Garry

Ok I am going to bite on this one..Please dont think I am against or for what you are saying or attacking you in any way but I want to question this.

I will start with I am a judge been judging before I competed and will be cooking in my first KCBS this coming weekend.

You are saying KCBS need to re-evaluate the judging process and like I say I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing but what would you suggest is a way to do the judging process. I mean there are 6 judges do you think more or less would help. Would you prefer it no longer be blind judging? I am a fan of the comment cards and wish they would be utilized more but one thing I dont want to happen is for there to become robot judges. There should ALWAYS be that human factor in my opinion. I understand that the judging process is not perfect and there are hiccups. I bet I will be angry when the judges bite me. Notice I didnt say "if" I said "when" but I dont know how things could be better and would like to hear ideas. Somehow the top teams still seem to win all the time no matter where they are competing so they must have the judging process figured out.

Again I hope I didnt say it wrong because I have heard many times the judging process should be changed but I am not sure how it could be better and maybe people with more experience than me have ideas that I hadnt even thought about.

 

[bignburlyman]

I judged this weekend and here is an example to consider. A chicken box with 6 pieces, judge to my right (end of table) took first sample, I took second sample. Appearance in the box was a little dark, but not bad, it was amazingly not heavily sauced. When I laid my piece on the placemat I put it facedown. Along the center of the thigh, just about 1/2 inch wide was crusty, charred black. When I took my bite, (a regular bite like always) I did not get any of the char. The judge (master) to my right had the same thing on his piece and he DID get the char in his bite. It was pretty tasty chicken (I think I scored 8 ), but I wrote a comment card that if I would have got into the char it would have been 6 or lower. The judge to my right did score it down. After the scores were turned in I polled the rest of the table and none of the other pieces were charred. I doubt this is the first time two pieces of meat were bad and the others were ok, I think this is (sometimes, not always) why there may be scores of 8,9,9,8,6,5. And this instance since I did not bite into the char it could have been just one judge with a low score.

 

[DawgPhan]

I'm not big on judges right now... Just got home from a comp and my ribs got a 7,6,6, from one judge and a 9,9,9, from another!!! Ugh! :mad2:

I guess you are assuming that the 7-6-6 judge is the one that was wrong, not the 9-9-9 judge?

Low scores aren't why people have an issue with judges, the issue is with inconsistent scores. 6 or 7 in AP when everyone else gives an 8 or 9.

Judging that is inconsistent with how it goes. Reps that dont do a great job of managing the judging pool on saturday, things like that drive a cook crazy, but when scores are all over the place or you get dinged by a couple of judges, you cooked bad BBQ. Suck it up and cook better next time.

 

[Hogtie N' Ride]

Most judges take the responsibilty seriously and do their best to be fair. I've seen a few tough and a few easy judges, either end provides inconsistency an unfairness.

I think it is also important to note that the reps work hard to make the tables consistent. New judges and master judges are spread out. They also make sure the same table does not get the same team for more than one catagory, again evening out inconsistency for the GC title.

As a judge, I would like to be able to put the comment on the score card so it is quicker and easier to give a comment, I could give more comments then. Judging moves fast and it feels rushed having to re-write the same information from the Score card onto the Comment Card.

As an organizer I had to black list a judge for their scoring and would do it again if the situation presented itself.

What I find the most interesting though is that there are teams, dispite all of this, that consistently win and get consistent high scores. They clearly know how to present entries that are superior in the assesment of the majority of judges.

 

[abangs]

Hehehe....there are a few guys cheesed off about Marietta Sam's event!!! There were definitely a few upsets there......and I am so fired up about those upsets it is not even funny!!!!! In reading this thread and judging debate, I find myself reflecting on a post I made last year ranting about the judges. I got blessed out by a few Brethren for being mad at the judges. What I took from that thread is that maybe my turn ins where not as good as I thought. Well, that was right. What we are turning in now vs last year is a different ball game. I judged a comp last year....and really discovered what i thought was tender was not melt in your mouth tender!!!! Same for taste......I had always thought my Q was ridiculous good....but when I judged I had some that was so good I damn near hurt myself.......and some so bad it dang near hurt me!!!!

Long story short, for the cooks here that are complaining about the judging, do yourself a favor and judge a few. You will be surprised what you will learn.

I think for the most part the judges get it right....but yes it can be a crap shoot.....and yes there are overly critical guys and gals in there...but for the most part they are good. As far as Marietta goes, I think you judges got it right. Our turn ins were D.A.O. and our scores showed it.....we are headed to the regionals and I am so fired up I have not slept since Marietta!!!!

Marietta was a tough field....only a couple of guys were teams not to worry about...no offense to any other part of the nation, but competing in Ga, NC, TN and SC in KCBS is tough!!!!! In GA alone there are about 50 teams that cook the GBC series (all KCBS) regularly that are all strong teams. Some of those guys are cooking 30 events a year and own restaurants.....sometimes I wonder how in the hell can a great BBQ'er compete with them!!!!

 

[abangs]

note to new judges if you give an entry a 5 on taste, please fill out a comment card. If the table captain and rep asks you to fill out a card because of your scores, please do so, those cook teams that slept in a parking lot will certainly appreciate the effort.

Dawg,
You would not happen to be the team up close to the store front, with a big red tent and cooking on BGE's by any chance would you??

 

[Bentley]

note to new judges if you give an entry a 5 on taste, please fill out a comment card. If the table captain and rep asks you to fill out a card because of your scores, please do so, those cook teams that slept in a parking lot will certainly appreciate the effort.

Can I get ya to change new to All and they I can give ya an Amen!

 

[DawgPhan]

Dawg,
You would not happen to be the team up close to the store front, with a big red tent and cooking on BGE's by any chance would you??

nope not us.

 

[Pigs on Fire]

Dawg,
You would not happen to be the team up close to the store front, with a big red tent and cooking on BGE's by any chance would you??

Sounds like you might be a little over zealous in your presumptions and you're way off the mark about "the teams in Marietta that are cheesed off"...

For a team to get some decent scores (7 and above) but then have a 5, even a 4 and not get a comment card is inexcusable IMO. If it hasn't happened to you, it's going to.

When you hear of good judges that you know talk about filling out comment cards for 8's, giving some great constructive criticism as in "if you will do ______, you would have got all 9's from me" and then you walk away with the scoresheet and see you got a single 5 in taste in one category....you look for the comment card and it's not there. You speak to the Rep and the Rep says they asked the judge to fill it out and the judge flat out refused....

That judge can KMA. That's not "cheesed off".... that's realizing there's no respect from that judge for what we do.


Carry on...