Where Does My $250 Go???

[Rich Parker]

How can the KCBS charge sanctioning fees when all I see about them is things they are NOT doing anymore...not new things they are doing for the teams.....what was the last strong thing the KCBS did FOR THE COMPETITORS since they are the backbone of the comps. ....it might be a lot, I don't know....maybe someone can clear it up for me

Your $35 a year not only gets you everything Muzzlebrake mentioned but what about a guarantee that you have a rep on site to make sure the organizer follows all of the rules such as not changing the meats when you get on site or decide an hour before turn in that they are delaying turn ins for several hours or any of the other silly crap that could happen if we didn't have someone there to back us up.

I am an advocate of all teams that compete in a sanctioned event should be members of that sanctioning body. If you don't want to pay your membership dues than go compete somewhere else.

 

[lbmksu]

Good info. Thanks. Its hard to remember that we aren't the only ones cash out-of-pocket. However, if you look around at these contests, not even carefully, you can see all that goes into them, and be more appreciative.

 

[BBQchef33]

Your $35 a year not only gets you everything Muzzlebrake mentioned but what about a guarantee that you have a rep on site to make sure the organizer follows all of the rules such as not changing the meats when you get on site or decide an hour before turn in that they are delaying turn ins for several hours or any of the other silly crap that could happen if we didn't have someone there to back us up.

I am an advocate of all teams that compete in a sanctioned event should be members of that sanctioning body. If you don't want to pay your membership dues than go compete somewhere else.

i dont think hes talking about the 35$ dues. Sanctioning fees for contests consist of a $350 listing fee, PLUS 12$ per team for BBQ and 5$ per team for Grilling. On top of that, there are rep expenses in the form of mileage, air fares, car rentals, fuel costs, etc for travel, plus hotel expenses and a meal per diem for the reps. I do believe the reps also get paid by KCBS for the event, and im sure thats where some of my $$ goes, which is fair. The meal per diem at times is a sticky point sometimes since many times reps are eating dinners onsite, and the hotels have free FULL buffet breakfasts.

KCBS fees are in excess of $1000 and for that, we get the tangibles of the reps, place mats, score cards and the scoring software, and the intangible is the "KCBS backing", which is what seems to be diminishing, such as guaranteeing the prize pool, AR/JD notifications, etc..

(sidebar, if muzzello is right Im not overly thrilled that some of the 1000+ dollars I am taking out of my contest funds goes to fund Sams club, Kingsford challenge, etc.. if I have to foot my own bill, then they should foot theirs).

 

[Rich Parker]

i dont think hes talking about the 35$ dues. Sanctioning fees for contests consist of a $350 listing fee, PLUS 12$ per team for BBQ and 5$ per team for Grilling. On top of that, there are rep expenses in the form of mileage, air fares, car rentals, fuel costs, etc for travel, plus hotel expenses and a meal per diem for the reps. I do believe the reps also get paid by KCBS for the event, and im sure thats where some of my $$ goes, which is fair. The meal per diem at times is a sticky point sometimes since many times reps are eating dinners onsite, and the hotels have free FULL buffet breakfasts.

KCBS fees are in excess of $1000 and for that, we get the tangibles of the reps, place mats, score cards and the scoring software, and the intangible is the "KCBS backing", which is what seems to be diminishing, such as guaranteeing the prize pool, AR/JD notifications, etc..

(sidebar, if muzzello is right Im not overly thrilled that some of the 1000+ dollars I am taking out of my contest funds goes to fund Sams club, Kingsford challenge, etc.. if I have to foot my own bill, then they should foot theirs).

Your right, I read it again and missed that. :loco:

 

[Tarheel]

(sidebar, if muzzello is right Im not overly thrilled that some of the 1000+ dollars I am taking out of my contest funds goes to fund Sams club, Kingsford challenge, etc.. if I have to foot my own bill, then they should foot theirs).

I think you will find that with the exception of the Sams Club (which last year got a 20k slush fund from KCBS to pay for incidentals like tee shirts) the sponsors are putting up the money for all of these programs.

As an orginizer also, these contest don't make alot of money without sponsors. The Hogfest puts all plus more of the entry fee back into prize money. Any profit we make off of the event is due to the public coming in. If it rains guess what, the balance sheet looks like the pig got slatghered right there. Most events cant stand to do that more than a couple of years. Hogfest is coming up on its 6th year and we made our first profit last year. And if we dont have a few more teams show up we will end up in the red again because I have based the prize money on a certain number of teams coming in. It is all a gamble all the way around but what the event does for the community as far as economic impact and the food we raise with our entry into the event by the public it is worth it to them.

 

[Gowan]

How can the KCBS charge sanctioning fees when all I see about them is things they are NOT doing anymore...not new things they are doing for the teams.....what was the last strong thing the KCBS did FOR THE COMPETITORS since they are the backbone of the comps. ....it might be a lot, I don't know....maybe someone can clear it up for me

The huge thing that KCBS brings to the table is a well-run and honestly judged contest. Yes, of course there are occasional problems here and there as you must expect when you are sanctioning jillions of events each year, but by and large cooks trust KCBS to ensure a contest is run fairly.

It's easy to take this for granted until you have the misfortune to cook at a non-KCBS event where the double-blind is not enforced, the judging is not according to a published ruleset or the tabulation of scores is in error or even skewed on purpose. (Yes, I'm sad to say I have seen all of the above personally).

Some of the other sanctioning organizations do a good job too, and some do not, but I believe a serious competitor is foolish to invest their thousand dollars in a non-sanctioned show unless what they want to do is have a party and don't really care who wins. (Which is OK too, as long as you know that going in)

-gf

 

[Sledneck]

I think you will find that with the exception of the Sams Club (which last year got a 20k slush fund from KCBS to pay for incidentals like tee shirts) the sponsors are putting up the money for all of these programs.
.

kcbs pays mma to bring them all to the table

 

[BBQchef33]

The huge thing that KCBS brings to the table is a well-run and honestly judged contest. Yes, of course there are occasional problems here and there as you must expect when you are sanctioning jillions of events each year, but by and large cooks trust KCBS to ensure a contest is run fairly.

I have to disagree with you here. KCBS sends in reps, a scoring system and yes they oversee the judging. So IMHO, all we get for the $1000+ sanctioning fee is a scoring program, and 2 reps that, to us competitors, gives us a perception/reality that the judging will be fair and unbiased. Even at that, in some cases, it is just that... they will 'oversee' it... because some reps wont even enter the scores, and that data entry is left up to volunteers or someone else supplied by the organizer. So, even the best reps have very little to do with a 'well run' event. Yes, i will admit that the KCBS presence gives us the warm and fuzzy that the judging will be up to standards, the double blind enforced, and the scoring is accurate, but thats not all that makes an event well run.. its simply the culmination of an already well(or poorly) run event.. I admit that i am more comfortable seeing the reps wandering the contest site, talking to teams and being available, but I have also seen contests where reps are MIA until turnin. I can guarantee that an event that had crappy electric, no water, garbage piling up, fights breaking out etc....but had great judging, isnt going to go down in the history books as "well run".

Give credit where due, Organizers and their staff make well run events, NOT KCBS, and sanctioning does not guarantee a quality contest.

Kcbs reps vary, where some go above and beyond and do get involved with the event outside of the judging tent, and others do bare minimum waiting for the 5 hour crunch time to start.

BUT!!! Starting at meat inspections, the whole gamut(36+ hours) is run by the organizer and crew, and Ive seen events where KCBS steps in in an 'official capacity" from 10 -3 on the last day. (yes, some reps are all over the contest site and doing everything possible, but its not the norm)..the KCBS window is 5 hours at the end of the event when KCBS reps runs the cook and judges meetings, and then waits for turnins to start. Turnins are accepted by volunteers, checked in by the reps, then distributed to judges and the score cards are then given to a volunteer to enter into the kcbs scoring. So how much did KCBS really contribute to the "well run" event? The event thats started 30+ hours before the crunch window, and sometimes the day before KCBS even shows up. ??

Organizers have to have an area set up for judging, electric for the computers, seating, an area for data entry, and of course all the stuff required by dozens of judges BEFORE KCBS even shows up. Then going beyond the judging tent, who sets up the ice, electric, water, sanitation, team dinners, breakfasts, goody bags, security, ammeneties, etc.. KCBS doesnt make sure your site is lit up at night, or your water is running, your equipment is safe, and that we, the competitors, are comfortable and taken care of. Hell, even the prize pool guarantee is gone that used to come with sanctioning. Sanctioning, in an essence gives us very little beyond a warm and fuzzy feeling that someone neutral is running the judging and scoring.. This same comfort level can be achieved by an organizer who has integrity and knows how to run a contest, including the expectations of the teams and judges.


im not trying to bash KCBS here..thats not the intention, and our reps do great jobs...., I guess my point is, to credit KCBS for a well run event is short changing all the organizers out there who bust there arses for us. KCBS and its sanctioning has MINIMAL to with the event quality. Its the integrity and goals of the organizers that we depend on to make and event succeed or fail.. not KCBS.

 

[brockportbbqfest]

BBQChef33 is absolutely correct. A contest would be a disaster without a good organizer and volunteers. I am fortunate that Ken and Kathie Dakhi our Reps, really step in and do a great job and go above and beyond, but it takes a lot to get to the point where Ken and Kathie have a setup where they can be successful at the event.

In regards to the Kingsford, Sams, Etc. These events SHOULD be paying for themselves from sponsorships. I am still puzzled why they pay MMA big dollars to run some of these events. I am sure MMA isn't cheap, then they subcontract out to guys like Arlie Bragg and Wayne Lohman. (I have a huge issue with guys on the board indirectly or directly for that matter getting paid to run an event that is a KCBS event. In my mind this is a HUGE conflict of interest.) They do a nice job with the events and I certainly am not trying to throw stones, but If I was on the board I certainly wouldn't be comfortable with this arrangement. I also question why KCBS didn't use existing contest for the Sam's Club events and such. By KCBS adding events they are actually competing with our local events. In my opinion NOT COOL! Just my 2 cents...

Rob

 

[Plowboy]

I have to disagree with you here. KCBS sends in reps, a scoring system and yes they oversee the judging. So IMHO, all we get for the $1000+ sanctioning fee is a scoring program, and 2 reps that, to us competitors, gives us a perception/reality that the judging will be fair and unbiased. Even at that, in some cases, it is just that... they will 'oversee' it... because some reps wont even enter the scores, and that data entry is left up to volunteers or someone else supplied by the organizer. So, even the best reps have very little to do with a 'well run' event. Yes, i will admit that the KCBS presence gives us the warm and fuzzy that the judging will be up to standards, the double blind enforced, and the scoring is accurate, but thats not all that makes an event well run.. its simply the culmination of an already well(or poorly) run event.. I admit that i am more comfortable seeing the reps wandering the contest site, talking to teams and being available, but I have also seen contests where reps are MIA until turnin. I can guarantee that an event that had crappy electric, no water, garbage piling up, fights breaking out etc....but had great judging, isnt going to go down in the history books as "well run".

Give credit where due, Organizers and their staff make well run events, NOT KCBS, and sanctioning does not guarantee a quality contest.

Kcbs reps vary, where some go above and beyond and do get involved with the event outside of the judging tent, and others do bare minimum waiting for the 5 hour crunch time to start.

BUT!!! Starting at meat inspections, the whole gamut(36+ hours) is run by the organizer and crew, and Ive seen events where KCBS steps in in an 'official capacity" from 10 -3 on the last day. (yes, some reps are all over the contest site and doing everything possible, but its not the norm)..the KCBS window is 5 hours at the end of the event when KCBS reps runs the cook and judges meetings, and then waits for turnins to start. Turnins are accepted by volunteers, checked in by the reps, then distributed to judges and the score cards are then given to a volunteer to enter into the kcbs scoring. So how much did KCBS really contribute to the "well run" event? The event thats started 30+ hours before the crunch window, and sometimes the day before KCBS even shows up. ??

Organizers have to have an area set up for judging, electric for the computers, seating, an area for data entry, and of course all the stuff required by dozens of judges BEFORE KCBS even shows up. Then going beyond the judging tent, who sets up the ice, electric, water, sanitation, team dinners, breakfasts, goody bags, security, ammeneties, etc.. KCBS doesnt make sure your site is lit up at night, or your water is running, your equipment is safe, and that we, the competitors, are comfortable and taken care of. Hell, even the prize pool guarantee is gone that used to come with sanctioning. Sanctioning, in an essence gives us very little beyond a warm and fuzzy feeling that someone neutral is running the judging and scoring.. This same comfort level can be achieved by an organizer who has integrity and knows how to run a contest, including the expectations of the teams and judges.


im not trying to bash KCBS here..thats not the intention, and our reps do great jobs...., I guess my point is, to credit KCBS for a well run event is short changing all the organizers out there who bust there arses for us. KCBS and its sanctioning has MINIMAL to with the event quality. Its the integrity and goals of the organizers that we depend on to make and event succeed or fail.. not KCBS.

I agree with 98% of this. The organizer and volunteers are what makes a contest successful. But KCBS brings the format. Without KCBS and the cooks that choose to cook their contests, you'd have every contest trying to figure it out for themselves. Teams wouldn't know what they were walking into contest to contest. Though I agree with the sentiment that KCBS is not the lions share of what makes a successful contest, I think it is shorting them on the credit they deserve by saying all you get is software and 2 reps. Physically, that's true. However, you get training for reps, training for judges, TOY races that bring cooks out to cook more contests, and you get a contest format. Not the physical planning/execution. Not the marketing and advertising. This is true.

We are part of Boy Scouts of America. I serve in multiple leadership positions in the Cub Scout Pack my boys belong in. You can trust that the national BSA organization isn't sitting in our den meetings, pack meetings, or committee meetings. They aren't providing funds for us. They aren't providing volunteers for us. But, for our dues which are reasonable, we get a program to follow. We get tradition. We get a national and international community. Maybe not all parallels with KCBS, but the point is that, like a contest, there's more work happening at the local levels than national to support local scouting, yet we couldn't do it easily and consistently without the BSA. Same as at a contest.

 

[Plowboy]

BBQChef33 is absolutely correct. A contest would be a disaster without a good organizer and volunteers. I am fortunate that Ken and Kathie Dakhi our Reps, really step in and do a great job and go above and beyond, but it takes a lot to get to the point where Ken and Kathie have a setup where they can be successful at the event.

In regards to the Kingsford, Sams, Etc. These events SHOULD be paying for themselves from sponsorships. I am still puzzled why they pay MMA big dollars to run some of these events. I am sure MMA isn't cheap, then they subcontract out to guys like Arlie Bragg and Wayne Lohman. (I have a huge issue with guys on the board indirectly or directly for that matter getting paid to run an event that is a KCBS event. In my mind this is a HUGE conflict of interest.) They do a nice job with the events and I certainly am not trying to throw stones, but If I was on the board I certainly wouldn't be comfortable with this arrangement. I also question why KCBS didn't use existing contest for the Sam's Club events and such. By KCBS adding events they are actually competing with our local events. In my opinion NOT COOL! Just my 2 cents...

Rob

I guess I'm being the devil's advocate tonight. Not trying to pick any fights or tell anyone their opinions are wrong. Just trying to bring another side. I certainly don't have all the right answers.

Board members running events for Sam's is a huge target for criticism, no one can deny that. But, I can see where someone like Alrie (and potentially others) is a good choice. Alrie runs a lot of contests. And unlike a lot of organizers, he's not doing it within reach of where he lives. He's executing events in multiple parts of the country and not just the area where he lives. Ron Cates is another example. These guys make obvious choices for Sam's events, or at least the first cut or two.

Now, just because Arlie is on the board doesn't make him less qualified. I see where folks are trying to make a big deal about this. As stated, I can see where this can look fishy. However, I don't think anyone was lining their pockets on this one. I mean, for a guy like Alrie who has a catering business, the money is equivalent to a decent catering job. If someone was going to abuse their power and risk their reputation, would it be over a single paycheck for organizing a Sam's Club event? A little weak for a conspiracy theory, IMHO. The bottom line was that they were going to pay SOMEONE to run the Sam's events. I can't say that they picked a lot of unqualified or even lesser qualified people. Your mileage may vary on that opinion.

Now if someone was fleecing the organization over years and years by abusing their power, then we've got a real issue. I just don't see a bunch of fat cats after the Sam's deal. Maybe I'm just blind.

 

[Muzzlebrake]

KCBS fees are in excess of $1000 and for that, we get the tangibles of the reps, place mats, score cards and the scoring software, and the intangible is the "KCBS backing", which is what seems to be diminishing, such as guaranteeing the prize pool, AR/JD notifications, etc..

(sidebar, if muzzello is right Im not overly thrilled that some of the 1000+ dollars I am taking out of my contest funds goes to fund Sams club, Kingsford challenge, etc.. if I have to foot my own bill, then they should foot theirs).

I agree with you that it takes much more than an organizer to have a well run contest. Without a good organizer and staff, I don't care who sanctions it, it won't be worth a chit.

I could be wrong but I think the majority of the programs I mentioned not only pay for themselves, by I was under the impression they also generated revenue for KCBS. Like I said, I could be wrong, I'm not sure where I heard that, maybe someone in the know can chime in.

Can you please correctly ( or at least consistently) spell my misspelled name?:becky::becky:

The huge thing that KCBS brings to the table is a well-run and honestly judged contest. Yes, of course there are occasional problems here and there as you must expect when you are sanctioning jillions of events each year, but by and large cooks trust KCBS to ensure a contest is run fairly.

It's easy to take this for granted until you have the misfortune to cook at a non-KCBS event where the double-blind is not enforced, the judging is not according to a published ruleset or the tabulation of scores is in error or even skewed on purpose. (Yes, I'm sad to say I have seen all of the above personally).

Some of the other sanctioning organizations do a good job too, and some do not, but I believe a serious competitor is foolish to invest their thousand dollars in a non-sanctioned show unless what they want to do is have a party and don't really care who wins. (Which is OK too, as long as you know that going in)

-gf

I have heard this from plenty of other cooks. While many people seem to enjoy bashing KCBS, I really believe that they bring a level of integrity that a team can count on. I understand there are others who also do this and I don't mean to belittle their efforts at all. I'm just much more familiar with KCBS

kcbs pays mma to bring them all to the table

That's kind of why you hire a marketing and PR firm isn't it?

 

[SHBBQ]

Just curious, if anyone knows the breakdown on what this money goes to. I'm sure that some goes into the prize pool, paying the reps, and to charity, but I'm just wondering what else.

I'm not making any accusations, or anything like that, I just would like to know.

I love how a simple question always turns into a giant political debate.

 

[BBQchef33]

I agree with you that it takes much more than an organizer to have a well run contest. Without a good organizer and staff, I don't care who sanctions it, it won't be worth a chit.

I could be wrong but I think the majority of the programs I mentioned not only pay for themselves, by I was under the impression they also generated revenue for KCBS. Like I said, I could be wrong, I'm not sure where I heard that, maybe someone in the know can chime in.

Can you please correctly ( or at least consistently) spell my misspelled name?:becky::becky:


I have heard this from plenty of other cooks. While many people seem to enjoy bashing KCBS, I really believe that they bring a level of integrity that a team can count on. I understand there are others who also do this and I don't mean to belittle their efforts at all. I'm just much more familiar with KCBS

That's kind of why you hire a marketing and PR firm isn't it?

You mean shawn keaver muzzello?. :becky::bow:

Agree except for the symantecs.. i think we are saying the same thing..

just imo its not KCBS that brings the integrity, its the organizer.. like plowboy said, in a KCBS event, they bring the format, but the execution is up to event staff and the reps are the insurance policy. :thumb:

 

[Gowan]

I have to disagree with you here. ...So, even the best reps have very little to do with a 'well run' event. ...

Give credit where due, Organizers and their staff make well run events, NOT KCBS, and sanctioning does not guarantee a quality contest.

Kcbs reps vary, where some go above and beyond and do get involved with the event outside of the judging tent, and others do bare minimum waiting for the 5 hour crunch time to start.

Interesting response. As an organizer myself, I'd love to accept full credit for the success of the shows I've run. However, I've been to contests where the organizer was AWOL, volunteers were virtually non-existent, and yet we as cooks still enjoyed a well-run and fair contest thanks to the Reps. (I'm referring to the actual nuts and bolts of the contest portion itself here, not the various support activities such as power, parking, trash pickup etc.) Note that my orginal statement was that KCBS ensured a well-run contest, not necessarily a quality event as a whole. This is an important distinction.

Where I do think we agree is that from your testimony and that of others around the country, it seems clear that there is a very wide range in the quality of available Reps. Here in my Region (Northern Georgia, Alabama and Tennesee) we have been blessed with some excellent KCBS Reps. It is common for the Reps to get involved with the organizers long before the contest date, especially with new events.

The idea of Reps only appearing at an event for five hours would be shocking down here, and believe me, any Rep who pulled such shenanigans would create an uproar and never be invited back. I've also heard tales of such horrors as the public wandering through judging tents out West during judging and boxes being stacked six high in the Midwest. I simply can't understand why anyone allows such things!

Perhaps we are just spoiled down South, because on the odd occassion when another organizer tells me they are replacing their Reps around these parts the reason is usually very mild and either entails a personality conflict or cost of expenses due to travel distance. (This it the one bone I have to pick with KCBS - we have 20 contests in GA and not a single Rep who lives in the state. Stupid!)

Anyway, to bring this rambling post to a conclusion, let me pose this thought: Much has been discussed about finding ways to either reeducate or cull "bad" judges from the ranks, but what about poorly performing Reps? I am suggesting the KCBS policy of keeping the number of Reps low is outdated, stymies growth and is just plain not good for anyone but the Reps themselves. If we had three times as many choices, the problem people would be replaced by better Reps through natural selection.

 

[Grizmt]

I hope I can enter the perspective of someone who has watched many events as a judge,vendor and volunteer.
I've been at KCBS/IBCA/PNWBA/BCS contests all over the western states in one capacity or another and have noticed a couple of things, the first being I don't believe I've ever run into a lazy or not fully involved rep. They were onsite and active usually during the middle to end of setup but definitely around at load in and stay until well after awards. Granted I've only seen a pool of about 8-10 KCBS reps, all of 'em have done the job the best they could and all went above what was required.

As was stated above, it isn't any of the sanctioning bodies that make the event, it's the people who own it (promoters/organizers or whatever you want to call 'em) that set the tone and make or break the event. If the organizers do a poor job nobody's happy and the events won't survive no matter what KCBS does.

KCBS doesn't require that there are bathrooms,good power,water or ice onsite nor do they make sure the $$$ get paid to the teams as promised nor do they have minimum standards for locations or conditions. They don't have minimum standards for keeping the food safe for the judges or a comfortable place for the judging to take place. All of the above is completely up to the event.
Basically all these sanctioning bodies provide is structure that is intended to keep the events on the level and give the teams some assurances that the results are fair.
I mean let's be honest here, teams don't really care if anyone/anything shows up other than the reps,teams,judges and the prize fund right?
I'm not trying to be negative or anything, just observing that it seems (to me) all that matters to the competitors at any given event is that as long as the 4 things listed above are present and everyone who wins gets paid it's all good. Is this a fair observation?

 

[carlyle]

Back to the original question without getting into the interesting political discussion.

Our contest has not had entry fees equal the purse pay out in our first four years.

The difference comes out of our operating income.

We have made a profit each year because of our generous sponsors, our world class Blues Festival, and our percentage of food and beverage sales.

We would be able to increase our donation to our charity, Special Olympics, if there were entry fees equal to the purse so there did not need to be a subsidy.

On the flip side, when we get more in entry fees than we need for the purse, I would lobby to increase the purse payout.

 

[BBQchef33]

I mean let's be honest here, teams don't really care if anyone/anything shows up other than the reps,teams,judges and the prize fund right?
I'm not trying to be negative or anything, just observing that it seems (to me) all that matters to the competitors at any given event is that as long as the 4 things listed above are present and everyone who wins gets paid it's all good. Is this a fair observation?

pretty much true.. for the most part the ultimate bottom line is the judging and scores.... but have you ever read the backlash afterwards regarding an event where the power was out?, or no water available, or ice.. or prize pool diminshed... or the johns were not cleaned out? those are the events that die off because the teams wont return. The scoring may have been dead on, and the reps did a great job, but those are not the things that give contests longevity. We're lucky that the reps we have had at our contests are seasoned veterans and ARE there starting at checkin... but that wasnt the case in other contests ive attended....AWOL reps, no water, even unbearable heat, and the organizer is the one who took it on the chin, and the contests died off. Civilwarbbq points out a good point, theres a line between a 'contest' and an 'event'.. unfortunately, in most cases, no matter how flawless the contest goes, if the event dies the contest dies with it.