What would your reaction be?

[KC_Bobby]

I helped in a class once too, not positive but I thought a script was to be followed as far as box prep. Example - 2nd box of chicken would have red tip, 3rd box of ribs would be short 6 samples, 3th box of pork would have sauce pooling, etc.

Back to the point - I don't know if I fault the judges for not noticing. I do fault the table capt, I feel it's the table captions job to notice. But that's where it gets confusing, does the TC go to the rep prior to showing the judges or after if a judge calls it out?

 

[Gowan]

That is correct. To ensure that every CBJ receives the same training, very specific sample boxes are prepared for each class according to KCBS specifications. It isn't possible to cover all the possible DQ scenarios, but illegal garnish is discussed and demonstrated.

Any CBJ who would use kale as a cook needs to be recertified, as they obviously did not absorb the rules information the first time around. There is no cost for a CBJ to re-take the judging class.

 

[ModelMaker]

A TC should at the pre-judging conversation with the judges tell them what he expects of them as far as clean up, restock etc. He should also take a few minutes and explain how he wants certain things handled, bottles on the side, no talking at his table until all cards in etc. He should also reinforce some common rule senarios, foreign objects, smears inside box tops etc. One thing that should be repeated at every table is that the very first thing the judge should do is to score that entry as it is presented, don't look for six pieces,garnish,any violation. After all scores have been recorded then ask your questions.
A perfect entry deserving a 9 with kale as garnish should be scored a 9 until all scores are entered and only then be given a 1 on direction of the rep after he is contacted by the TC.
Just as a side note, how many of you are 100% positive you could spot the difference between kale and curly leaf lettuce with meat piled all over it?
Ed

 

[C Rocke]

Tough either way. Teams have placed well turning in spares instead of baby backs at a rib contest with both categories (Honest mistake). Just a lot of moving parts on this one...

 

[pahutchens]

I think this provides a great learning experience, if used. we can't change the past but we can create a better future.
When I took my CBJ with Mike Lake a month ago they slipped in red tipped lettuce for the learning moment. Looked like plain old leaf lettuce to me with slightly darker tips.

do the TC classes cover these better?
I'm still waiting to do my first judging so take my thoughts as a new CBJ (shiny)

 

[gmholler]

It appears that many cookers are under the impression that a table captain is there as some figure of authority, that TCs can make some determination or rule on something. They can not. Only the rep has that authority. Table captains are essentially contest waitstaff and are subject to what the rep(s) say. As a TC, I have been told at most contests to show no emotion whatsoever to the judges, regardless of whether what I am presenting looks absolutely delicious or like the contents of a can of Alpo.

Lynn H.

 

[ModelMaker]

It appears that many cookers are under the impression that a table captain is there as some figure of authority, that TCs can make some determination or rule on something. They can not. Only the rep has that authority. Table captains are essentially contest waitstaff and are subject to what the rep(s) say. As a TC, I have been told at most contests to show no emotion whatsoever to the judges, regardless of whether what I am presenting looks absolutely delicious or like the contents of a can of Alpo.

Lynn H.

I disagree, a table captain is in authority over his table.
It is his responsability to make sure his table follows the rules set up by KCBS. He is the important link between the rep and the judges.
No, he cannot authorize a DQ or a 1 score but he alone is in charge of how that table follows the rules as he reports to the KCBS REP.
Ed

 

[pinehollow]

I am a new judge and have only judged one contest. The class I took did go over garnish and did an example of an illegal garnish, but did not focus on it. It was very focused on judging the meat.

My understanding that judging appearance was the appearance of the meat. At the class and my first contest, I put into practice to really focus on looking at the meat, all I see around it is some green stuff. I guess if it really happened to catch my eye I would bring it up to the TC after scoring the entry. I'm focusing on the effort the team has put into the meat and really trying to ignore the garnish.

If this is the same approach that a lot of other judges have, that may explain how they got away with it for so long.

Am I wrong in my approach?

Still can't figure out why on earth they would take that risk, seems foolish.

From a team perspective, would you rather a judge put more focus on the greens purely for the possibility to catch the wrong garnish since we are not supposed to be judging it anyway?

 

[stlgreg]

Nate,
I understand your frustration. Nothing makes more aggravated than judges that arent doing what they are supposed to be doing. I didnt talk to the team about it but i know who you are talking about. I thought he knew better than that. He took it REALLY hard so I really dont know what he was thinking.

I was cleaning boxes this past weekend and i never saw any other kale come through.
I did see red tipped lettuce come through on chicken. It was on the bottom of the box under the meat. I alerted the reps and we did keep an eye out the rest of judging.

We had some real experienced table captains and i dont know how they missed the kale the first two times.

We had two DQs this past weekend and both teams said the same thing. They did it last week at (retracted). Earlier this week, I alerted the KCBS office to that fact.

I am glad the judges i had caught both. The other DQ was a team including boneless rib meat with their six rib bones. I guess we had a third when one team turned in five ribs but that was an easy one to catch.

The only thing i can do from my end is keep watching judges where i go and not allow judges that are not doing things right to come to my contest. If necessary, i will let other contest organizers know as well.

I will be putting on a class sometime in the summer and yes current CBJs can audit any class for free. In this instance, i dont know if i want a lot of CBJs to show up or not. I need to at least break even on the class, but if any judge wants to show up I will welcome them with open arms.

 

[Brewmaster]

Greg,

I appreciate your post and I hope you understand this is not meant to be directed at you. The objective of this thread and the reason for posting it is to get other people's thoughts on the situation, and discuss if there really is a problem. Do we need to make some changes? Do we need to track judges better? I don't have the answers but I thought from what I observed it might be a good topic of conversation. Again, I hope you don't take this to be a personal attack against your hard work as an organizer.

Nate

 

[stlgreg]

i didnt take it personal at all.

you know we may have an issue here. I was talking to my neighbor and he doesnt know what kale is. So if normal people dont know what kale is and normal people take the CBJ class then how do they learn what kale is?

the more i have thought about i learned because i wanted to know after the class. I went to the store and made sure i knew. how many other people have done that? Actually the first time i went to the store it was mismarked so it took me longer to learn what it was.

Do they learn when someone else catches some at the table?

 

[gmholler]

And what is the reason behind the kale prohibition, anyway? I don't see that green sold around here much to start with, so I can't say if it causes a certain problem with meat or something.

Lynn H.

 

[Capn Kev]

This is pretty surprising, considering they spend more time in a CBJ class teaching them how to identify illegal garnish than they do teaching how to properly judge the meat.

^^^^^ I totally agree.

 

[BRBBQ]

Those two garnish's should stand out like a sore thumb.

 

[BBQchef33]

KCBS should take some lessons from the FBA, not sure if I am correct on this but I do believe the FBA also tracks judges as well

[SIZE=+2]FBA Judge Requirements[/SIZE]

1. Maintain an active FBA Membership.
2. Judge a minimum of one FBA sanctioned contest every 12 months. (note: failure to achieve this requirement means you will have to attend an FBA Judge's Training Seminar prior to judging again.)
3. Be present for the Judges Briefing at any contest your are confirmed to judge. Failure to be present means that you will not judge that contest. Check-in for judges starts at 9am on the day of the contest and ends at 9:30am. The Judges Briefing begins at 9:30am, followed by the Table Captains Briefing.
4. If you fail to show for three contests that you are confirmed to judge without notifying either the Organizer or one of the Reps, you will be removed from the list of judges for future contests.
5. Judge all four categories at any contest you are seated at for judging.
6. During the contest, you are not allowed to visit with the cook teams. Doing so will cause you to be removed from the judging that day.
7. After the contest, you may visit with the cook teams, however you may not discuss any part of the judging including your scores. Doing so will cause you to be removed from the list of judges for future contests.

uh uh.... The list. :thumb::becky:

 

[SmokinOkie]

... I was talking to my neighbor and he doesnt know what kale is. So if normal people dont know what kale is and normal people take the CBJ class then how do they learn what kale is?

Someone had to buy it and should know what's legal/illegal.

As for training of reps, give an email to KCBS about this. If he wasn't trained on illegal, then that wasn't normal. KCBS actually has a set manual for building boxes and every time I've done the cook for a contest class, KALE was in the instructions. As well as red tipped and cilantro.

He knows the rules now, he needs to move on.

For me, it's interesting to see classes teaching more about scoring then illegal. We do have experienced judges (usually 1 or more) at each table and they certainly know. Table Captains should be looking for illegal entries, but they aren't always experienced TC's.

 

[CritterCook]

It's things like this and general erratic judging that has kinda soured me on competing. Good post Nate.

 

[bigabyte]

I was talking to my neighbor and he doesnt know what kale is. So if normal people dont know what kale is and normal people take the CBJ class then how do they learn what kale is?

Each class is different of course, but Ed Roith did a CBJ class here in Overland Park yesterday and he handed out samples of parsley and endive to each and every table to people could get a good view of it. Also, two of the judging boxes used at each table during the class had illegal garnish to allow people to catch it. Again, not all classes are the same, but at this one the CBJ's were definitely shown the difference and given chances to spot it.

 

[Spydermike72]

While I see your frustration with the situation, the party that got caught should have known better. You have to actually go and buy the stuff, and if he is a CBJ and done more than 1 comp he knows the rules. I would be more peeved at someone trying to get over (not that using kale would give anyone a distinct advantage) than a CBJ not catching the problem...

I was at a contest recently and the team next to me was disqualified on their pork entry. Later after the contest I talked to the team members about the reason they were disqualified. They proceeded to tell me it was for using kale and endives. So I asked them if they used kale and endives on their chicken and rib entry. They said they did, and not only at this contest. They used kale and endives on all four categories at a previous contest. At that point I was getting frustrated because his previous contest was the same contest I competed in. So I looked up the results and they placed in the top ten in one category. Not that it made a huge difference in the outcome of the contest but the fact that this got past six table captains and thirty-six judges before getting caught is what disturbed me. But the worst part of the whole situation was that he told me he was a CBJ himself. Now I could see a situation where the rules were kind of vague or a little gray, but this rule is spelled out in black and white. At what point do they take away someone’s CBJ status? What other rules are being broken and missed? I want to say I am very disappointed in a system that I spend a lot of time and money involved in.
Nate
CBJ# 21746

 

[stlgreg]

Someone had to buy it and should know what's legal/illegal.

As for training of reps, give an email to KCBS about this. If he wasn't trained on illegal, then that wasn't normal. KCBS actually has a set manual for building boxes and every time I've done the cook for a contest class, KALE was in the instructions. As well as red tipped and cilantro.

He knows the rules now, he needs to move on.

For me, it's interesting to see classes teaching more about scoring then illegal. We do have experienced judges (usually 1 or more) at each table and they certainly know. Table Captains should be looking for illegal entries, but they aren't always experienced TC's.

I have seen some stores where it is mismarked on more than one occasion. I have also found i cannot trust the stock people in the produce section. They really dont know what they are doing.