Struggling and/or cancelled Comps

I'll put in my two cents which, with inflation, may be worth half that. First the disclaimers:
  1. I don't, nor have I ever, competed
  2. I have considered competing many times
  3. I end up deciding not to because the playing field is no where near level which, in my mind, makes my chances of placing in a comp seem close to nil.

The OP alluded to an interview with Big Poppa and he said something that I've often thought: that there should be 'divisions' within KCBS. You could make the comparison to AAA, AA and big league baseball.
Other hobbies I've dabbled in that also include competition have managed this and while I know that the food aspect makes it harder I really believe it would open things up.
I could easily see an Amateur division (currently 'backyard'), a Standard or Hobby division, a Pro division and an Unlimited division. I think these divisions could even be distinguished by allowable techniques (Amateur and Hobby can't inject maybe, or there's a separate division for smokers that need electricity vs pure charcoal or stick burners) and how much you are allowed to spend on meats. Another distinguishing characteristic should be whether or not you make money outside of the comp world (selling rubs, sauces, etc means a move to the Pro Division). The Pro division is just that, for folks who make their living in BBQ. The guys that own restaurants or ANYONE that wants to go crazy with techniques or folks with sponsors go to the Unlimited division. Anything goes, but at least then you know going in that you're up against the big boys and anything their sponsors can pay for.

Another interesting option is that even if you start in the Amateur or Hobby division, you can only compete there for so long or maybe rack up so many wins before you have to move to the next division, thereby eliminating the dynasty problem for the little guys. Admittedly this is a tough one and it may be a bad idea because it would force someone into a division that they couldn't afford to compete in but its worth a conversation.

And if a newbie wants to step right up to compete in the big leagues they're more than welcome to, but again they know going into it what to expect.

Another benefit is maybe it brings in even bigger sponsors to BBQ because they can increase their visibility. Think corporate golf sponsors and such. Maybe there's even a Corporate division in the really big contests. As a BBQ hobbyist I'd travel to a comp to see Weber's display trailer or a decked out rig from MAK or others.

And yes I can also see the hassle in policing these things... I can also see judging headaches because judges are comparing (even if they don't intend to) Hobby entries to Unlimited entries. Just because its hard doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. I'm just trying make comparisons to other hobbies I've had. In auto contests it may be 'stock' vs. 'hot rod'. In shooting competitions its stock guns vs. guns tricked out to within an inch of their life. In each of those cases you only compete against your peers.

Maybe this makes it all too 'corporate' and doesn't honor the true history of BBQ... but I'd make the argument that the good ol' boys who started this didn't worry about which phosphate they were going to use in their mechanical pump injector.

tduffy said:
Just remember that the big expensive rigs don't mean anything. At the end of the day it's just meat in a box and the judges don't know if it came from an expensive rig or not.
Click to expand...

I understand the above sentiment and as far as what the rig is that's true. But honestly if I'm a hobbyist and maybe I only go my local competitions I can't, nor should I have to, pop for a Wagyu brisket or heritage pork just to have a shot. And I can already hear the complaints of "it ain't the meat, its' the cook". Well I don't go to Morton's and pay $60 for a steak just because of the guy manning the grill.

Once again my two cents... and I probably owe you change.
Alex
 
Regarding divisions: The first competition I judged was the Smoke on the Water in North Little Rock in 2010. They had 227 teams.

A local sailor from the Navy base here in Millington took ... second place I think ... in brisket. It was his first competition, he drove out there with one WSM in the back seat of his car, and he bought the brisket locallly from our meat market just two miles from the base. All this to say, in a barbecue competition it really is anyone's game.

Additionally, backyard comps kind of serves as the amatuer division.
 
CBQ said:
Candy, I would love to see team density affect the mileage calculation.

In Kansas City, with tons of contests, 190 miles might be considered far. In New England, with a lot fewer contents available to us, I would consider an event 190 miles away a "local" contest.

For example, Smokin' at the Ballpark (Old Orchard Beach, ME) and the Sun BBQ Fest (Uncasville, CT) are 194 miles apart. KCBS sanctioned Sun BBQ for the same weekend that Smokin' had been using, and team attendance at Smokin' dropped 40% from it's 2013 number. The Sun BBQ Fest also had a low turnout for a contest with a 20k prize pool.

There are only about 40 teams in New England, so having two contests on the same weekend is a real problem. I think in New England, care should be taken to avoid conflicts within a 300 mile radius. That wouldn't work in, say, Georgia, but would be correct in the northeast.

This weekend contests in Troy, NY and Kingston, RI (195 miles apart) are doing the same thing - cannibalizing each other. We have so few contests up here, care really should be taken to isolate the weekends.

I would have cooked all 4 of these if they weren't piled on top of each other.
Click to expand...

I am doing Rhode Island, but was going to do Troy and could not get them to respond to an email about signing up. That hurts attendance too!
 
alecksjaycubs said:
I'll put in my two cents which, with inflation, may be worth half that. First the disclaimers:
  1. I don't, nor have I ever, competed
  2. I have considered competing many times
  3. I end up deciding not to because the playing field is no where near level which, in my mind, makes my chances of placing in a comp seem close to nil.

The OP alluded to an interview with Big Poppa and he said something that I've often thought: that there should be 'divisions' within KCBS. You could make the comparison to AAA, AA and big league baseball.
Other hobbies I've dabbled in that also include competition have managed this and while I know that the food aspect makes it harder I really believe it would open things up.
I could easily see an Amateur division (currently 'backyard'), a Standard or Hobby division, a Pro division and an Unlimited division. I think these divisions could even be distinguished by allowable techniques (Amateur and Hobby can't inject maybe, or there's a separate division for smokers that need electricity vs pure charcoal or stick burners) and how much you are allowed to spend on meats. Another distinguishing characteristic should be whether or not you make money outside of the comp world (selling rubs, sauces, etc means a move to the Pro Division). The Pro division is just that, for folks who make their living in BBQ. The guys that own restaurants or ANYONE that wants to go crazy with techniques or folks with sponsors go to the Unlimited division. Anything goes, but at least then you know going in that you're up against the big boys and anything their sponsors can pay for.

Another interesting option is that even if you start in the Amateur or Hobby division, you can only compete there for so long or maybe rack up so many wins before you have to move to the next division, thereby eliminating the dynasty problem for the little guys. Admittedly this is a tough one and it may be a bad idea because it would force someone into a division that they couldn't afford to compete in but its worth a conversation.

And if a newbie wants to step right up to compete in the big leagues they're more than welcome to, but again they know going into it what to expect.

Another benefit is maybe it brings in even bigger sponsors to BBQ because they can increase their visibility. Think corporate golf sponsors and such. Maybe there's even a Corporate division in the really big contests. As a BBQ hobbyist I'd travel to a comp to see Weber's display trailer or a decked out rig from MAK or others.

And yes I can also see the hassle in policing these things... I can also see judging headaches because judges are comparing (even if they don't intend to) Hobby entries to Unlimited entries. Just because its hard doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. I'm just trying make comparisons to other hobbies I've had. In auto contests it may be 'stock' vs. 'hot rod'. In shooting competitions its stock guns vs. guns tricked out to within an inch of their life. In each of those cases you only compete against your peers.

Maybe this makes it all too 'corporate' and doesn't honor the true history of BBQ... but I'd make the argument that the good ol' boys who started this didn't worry about which phosphate they were going to use in their mechanical pump injector.



I understand the above sentiment and as far as what the rig is that's true. But honestly if I'm a hobbyist and maybe I only go my local competitions I can't, nor should I have to, pop for a Wagyu brisket or heritage pork just to have a shot. And I can already hear the complaints of "it ain't the meat, its' the cook". Well I don't go to Morton's and pay $60 for a steak just because of the guy manning the grill.

Once again my two cents... and I probably owe you change.
Alex
Click to expand...

Alex, you make some valid points, but breaking up in divisions like you suggest would be a nightmare for organizers, reps and judges IMHO. The back yard and "pro" divisions work pretty well in my view.

I would also disagree about the playing field not being level. We all turn in the same size box with the same kinds of meat. It is just what you do to get to that point that matters. I know a team that competed in 2 contests last year and quit because they thought they should have won by that time because they believed "their stuff was really good!"

Your job as a cook is to impress 6 judges with your best BBQ and some days you are the bug and some days you are the windshield. I was in Davenport, Iowa last year on business and spur of the moment decided to cook a competition over the weekend. I cooked against some really good teams (Iowa Smokey D's, CancerSucksChicago, Quau, Ponderosa BBQ, Ron L. and others) with a rented cooker with no thermostat, a rented table and a $45 EZup. I scored 5th in Ribs and 10th overall and it was the most fun I ever had a contest.

In my first competition in 2012, I had an EZ-UP, 2 tables, a chair and a smoker. It rained all weekend! :) I got a 3rd place call in Chicken and I was hooked. Up to that point, I had never heard of a Waygu Brisket. I have cooked them and done well with them, but found out that I can do just as well as any other team with a prime.

I think that BBQ Pitmasters and other shows may scare away some new folks because people think that you have to cook with "special" meats and $10,000 smokers and it just is not the case. I bought one of those fancy Backwoods smokers this spring to try something new and I have ended up going back to my old pig roaster and have scored very well in my last 2 comps. Don't buy into the hype and just have fun! That is what it is supposed to be all about.

There's you change! :)
 
CivilWarBBQ said:
At our event next year, we're going to take a shot at this problem by paying prize money to a special subset division called "The Old School Challenge".

Here's how it will work:

Any team can participate that pays the regular entry fee. (we have no backyard at our contest)

Winners will be determined from the highest regular KCBS scores of participating teams.

Only teams that cook and prep on the ground are eligible for these awards. Teams can transport their gear in a cargo trailer and even sleep in a camper if they wish, but all prep, cooking and boxing must be done on the ground.

It will be interesting to see how this works out. We already have a decent number of canopy teams, but I'm hoping to entice some of the guys that call every year and ask "Do you have a backyard division?" to take the plunge knowing they have a goal to shoot for that isn't impossibly high.

We'll see!
Click to expand...

Looking forward to it.
 
CBQ said:
Candy, I would love to see team density affect the mileage calculation.

In Kansas City, with tons of contests, 190 miles might be considered far. In New England, with a lot fewer contents available to us, I would consider an event 190 miles away a "local" contest.

For example, Smokin' at the Ballpark (Old Orchard Beach, ME) and the Sun BBQ Fest (Uncasville, CT) are 194 miles apart. KCBS sanctioned Sun BBQ for the same weekend that Smokin' had been using, and team attendance at Smokin' dropped 40% from it's 2013 number. The Sun BBQ Fest also had a low turnout for a contest with a 20k prize pool.

There are only about 40 teams in New England, so having two contests on the same weekend is a real problem. I think in New England, care should be taken to avoid conflicts within a 300 mile radius. That wouldn't work in, say, Georgia, but would be correct in the northeast.

This weekend contests in Troy, NY and Kingston, RI (195 miles apart) are doing the same thing - cannibalizing each other. We have so few contests up here, care really should be taken to isolate the weekends.

I would have cooked all 4 of these if they weren't piled on top of each other.
Click to expand...

I agree with Chris.

To further complicate the contests coming up this weekend in the North East, there is a third contest in Warren, PA. While that is 5+ hours away from the Troy, NY contest - it is less than 2 hours away from Western New York, another area that has a large grouping of "regular" teams who have chosen to do Warren, Pa or Troy, NY. As a result, the Troy, NY contest only has 25 teams and Warren, PA was still struggling to meet the minimum of 25 teams as of yesterday. It is quite common in this area for teams to regularly drive up to 5 or 6 hours to compete. While we are competing in the Troy, NY contest - had the other 2 been different weekends we would have cooked them as well.
 
Candy Sue said:
This is my opinion and not representative of KCBS...

Determining whether or not to sanction events, distance between the events as well as team density in an area are both factors considered. 190 miles is considered a far distance. While KCBS can suggest to the organizer that they have a presence in social media and have a web site, it's up to the organizer to get this done.

That's too bad that a team showed out that way. Bad sportsmanship for sure. Organizer has the right to not allow that team to compete the next time.
Click to expand...

Candy thank you for your response and your opinion. I guess I feel 190 miles is just to close a distance for 2 new contests especially since many contests already are struggling to reach numbers. As for the contest without a website i know KCBS has nothing to do with that and this is actually a contest that already has had some issues with having to change dates..I just feel this contest is in trouble but I could be wrong.

I vaguely described a teams poor attitude but what I should have done is also talk about a BIG team, who is the exact opposite. The team that is an ELITE team, that won GC at the main contest I was describing was truly what makes comp bbq great. They were answering questions from the public and other competitors, visiting and joking around with all the teams, and helped out a couple of teams with meat issues they had. I WISH THEY WERE THE TYPE EVERYONE GETS TO SEE COMPETE.

While I have had some ups and downs in comp BBQ I have many times read or heard or been involved in discussions as to what is wrong and why comps are having problems. I was trying to say Here is what I think is wrong from KCBS,Organizers and even us cooks are responsible.

I dont regret saying that but what I SHOULD have done is say what is GOOD about comp bbq as well. It seems that several areas are starting to have issues and what could be done to make it better. I think communication from SOME organizers would go a long way and in my opinion dates and distance should be thought out more by whomever, KCBS or organizers. I think that we as cooks could also do a lot to help the hobby grow and not struggle whether it is attitudes or just staying locked up in our trailers. And I am just as guilty on that as anyone else. i just didnt realize it until reading some of the responses and I personally will do everything I can to be more available and not closed up in the A/C. I will hold myself accountable.

I love this hobby and almost every person I have met and I want to see it grow whether it is KCBS or not so i was just putting thoughts out there.
 
Fat Freddy,

We were at the contest you were talking about, but the incident must have been over on the other side because I didn't see it. I will say that my experiences with comp BBQ in general and Iowa teams specifically have been almost completely positive. Like in anything you do, there is always going to be the occasional @-hole, but the other folks you meet in BBQ more than outweigh it.

We had three teams heading to another contest (including the GC you mentioned) and it was a three hour drive to get there. It would have been a good excuse to leave after the last turn-in, but we all stayed for awards out of respect for the organizers. I feel sorry for the team that says that they won't cook another KCBS contest. They should have been on the south end of the park. There were some big rigs there, but all good folks.

With regards to some contests having issue getting teams, there are some who don't understand that people are used to instant information. An email address or website for the local Chamber of Commerce that has no mention of the contest doesn't get the job done. Neither does lack of response to emails.

I have suggested to KCBS a couple of times that they should require organizers to provide a PDF of contest details and a PDF or online entry form and post these linked to the event on the KCBS website. There is no reason in this day and age for having to email someone for the basic contest info or an entry form.
 
KCBS cannot treat every region the same with blanket policies. Every area of this country is different. You have to take in concentration of teams, amount of teams, distance from major cities, and regional popularity of bbq.
*
In the South, and Mid-South (including MO.) you have many teams, with a strong local bbq presence. You could (and do) have contests almost year round.
*
Up here in Buffalo, the season starts Memorial Day in Rochester at Roc City Ribfest and Ends in Mid-September at the Oinktoberfest. Both contests could have nightly 40 degree temps…so there is really no going far out of that range. (It can and has snowed here into mid-May.)
*
With around 30 teams based in a 60 mile radius we have a pretty healthy scene. Mid May to Mid-September…That’s 18 weekends we can hold Comps. 14 in the Summer sweet spot.
*
BUT
*
You have long standing contests far away that teams here often go to…Harpoon, Troy, etc. As well as the sites for the Empire State Cup. Around here, as Gail said, you should make sure NO other contest is the same weekend within around 300-350 miles. It is ridiculous to cannibalize each other and weaken a bbq region that has already seen 3 contests fold within 70 miles of each other…just this year.
*
You want to know how to keep BBQ Healthy…take it low and slow. Other bbq orgs have made similar mistakes, expanding too fast, and cannibalism hurt them
*
Research regional stats before blindly approving contests on a mileage basis. Concentrate on current longstanding contests that draw teams and give them a 300 mile radius for that weekend to prevent cannibalization, bad team turnout, and eventually sponsor abandonment due to poor showing on paper. Because that is what businesses see. They see less teams showing up to longstanding contests and they pull the plug. Their money doesn’t go to the next contest, it disappears forever, and with it disappears our contests.
*
Everywhere has enough weekends if you just do research.

*
 
Last edited:
TooSaucedToPork said:
KCBS cannot treat every region the same with blanket policies. Every area of this country is different. You have to take in concentration of teams, amount of teams, distance from major cities, and regional popularity of bbq.
*
In the South, and Mid-South (including MO.) you have many teams, with a strong local bbq presence. You could (and do) have contests almost year round.
*
Up here in Buffalo, the season starts Memorial Day in Rochester at Roc City Ribfest and Ends in Mid-September at the Oinktoberfest. Both contests could have nightly 40 degree temps…so there is really no going far out of that range. (It can and has snowed here into mid-May.)
*
With around 30 teams based in a 60 mile radius we have a pretty healthy scene. Mid May to Mid-September…That’s 18 weekends we can hold Comps. 14 in the Summer sweet spot.
*
BUT
*
You have long standing contests far away that teams here often go to…Harpoon, Troy, etc. As well as the sites for the Empire State Cup. Around here, as Gail said, you should make sure NO other contest is the same weekend within around 300-350 miles. It is ridiculous to cannibalize each other and weaken a bbq region that has already seen 3 contests fold within 70 miles of each other…just this year.
*
You want to know how to keep BBQ Healthy…take it low and slow. Other bbq orgs have made similar mistakes, expanding too fast, and cannibalism hurt them
*
Research regional stats before blindly approving contests on a mileage basis. Concentrate on current longstanding contests that draw teams and give them a 300 mile radius for that weekend to prevent cannibalization, bad team turnout, and eventually sponsor abandonment due to poor showing on paper. Because that is what businesses see. They see less teams showing up to longstanding contests and they pull the plug. Their money doesn’t go to the next contest, it disappears forever, and with it disappears our contests.
*
Everywhere has enough weekends if you just do research.

*
Click to expand...
Regional representation would go a long way to resolving this.



























Yeah, I went there.
 
I did not say comps should be broken up into divisions....I said KCBS should consider season long rankings based on number of contests entered....can you imagine a tennis club with just an open ladder?

BBQ Scores last year published the winners of the 5 and fewer contests, 6-11 contests, 12-24 and 25 and over...This gave people an idea of how they faired against people who cooked similar number of contests...
 
Struggling comps

Well, I just got done reading everyone's response and I would like to put my input in. Not to take a knock at the pro teams here but look at the back yard events heald inconjustion with the big events. They are more and more popular with a small entry fee and competitors cooking for bragging rites and that trophy with maybe ya little cash prize but mostly for the love of the cook. KCBS has what they call the competitor series with is a sanctioned 1 or 2 cattorgy cook. I think if you want to help make a existing contest bigger and better add a backyard event. I only do back yard cooks and we do almost 15 of them and I travel all over the place just to cook in them. Take St. Charles this past weekend had the pro teams @34 then on Sunday there were 60 back yard teams. All I am saying is if your looking to grow a event add a backyard event but don't treat it as a just some guys grilling there are serious competitors that travel the circuit and belive me we are just as competitive as the boys that cook all night. I would love some feed back if anyone took the time to read this.
 
Big Poppa said:
I did not say comps should be broken up into divisions....I said KCBS should consider season long rankings based on number of contests entered...
Click to expand...

Ah. I thought at some point you mentioned a AAA and AA type of system. That or something else got me thinking about divisions like I've seen in other hobbies. Didn't mean to put words in your mouth.
 
the problem with backyard events is they are often a second thought and seem to not be given the same amount of detail as the kcbs event.
 
Stoke&Smoke said:
Is KCBS on board with this? I would have no problem with it as about the only thing we do inside the trailer is stuff our boxes (with whatever garnish we're using) ALL prep, cooking, cutting, and final box prep is always done outside, and as long as they are polite and keep out of our way, we have never had a problem with visitors. We use an RV for comfort reasons, as we're way closer to 60 than 30, and have no desire to sleep on the ground.
Can't speak for the other states, but as Josh says, most folks in MI, WI, and IL are a pretty sociable group as a rule
Click to expand...

The KCBS Board has no input in the matter - it is a separate award outside of the regular competition, no different than things like awards for DAL, most liked team, farthest travelled, best booth, etc.

The root of the idea comes from the excellent contest in Waynesboro, GA, where they also have a subset type "contest within the contest". There it is termed the "Local Yokel" award and it is limited to those teams from the immediate Waynesboro area. We decided to change the scope of our prize to include any team just starting out, or perhaps even an experienced cook willing to forego the RV for one weekend and revisit their humble beginnings.

Certainly better interaction with the public is a benefit of getting teams out where they can be seen, but the two prime motivations for trying this out are to lower the perceived barriers to entry for backyarders and frankly to encourage smaller team setups. As BBQ rig inflation has taken us from simple little cargo trailers to triple axle, quad slide-out toy haulers, it puts a strain on organizers to accommodate all this hardware.

Put another way, it is easier and less costly to hold a contest with 50 canopy teams than a contest with 25 big RV teams - and both take up the same space.
 
Slamdunkpro said:
Regional representation would go a long way to resolving this.



























Yeah, I went there.
Click to expand...

Good luck with that. Getting the committee to come to agreement on a method to submit to the board for approval is a nightmare. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done. It's going to take a lot of work to come up with something that's fair, and workable over time to account for growth. Imagine being an unpaid board member getting hate mail because you've allegedly disenfranchised members of a BBQ Society. :mrgreen:
 
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