Struggling and/or cancelled Comps

[Fat Freddy]

I have sat on this for a few days without posting because I wanted to really think about how I wanted to say things and whether it would serve any purpose or not. After listening to the BBQ Central show interview with Big Poppa Smoker last night and reading the posting today about the Mid Atlantic contest cancellations I can tell some of the issues in my area are not isolated.

First let me say i am NOT trying to bad mouth anything. And I do understand just because contests are having issues in some area not all areas are having issues. There are some fantastic organizers out there and I hope to meet many of them eventually. And I do understand that sometimes cooks are as much the issue as anything else. And even myself could be considered an issue in the eyes of some contests(last minute entry,not entering more than 8 contests)

In Iowa contests are really starting to struggle to get teams even the very well known popular contests entries are down. Before I am argued with on that point just look at the results this year compared to before and entries are down. I have heard the argument of "the same teams keep winning" may have even thought it myself a time or two. And there may be something to that, but some of those "same teams" do a lot to try to help others get into comps. Helping out with meat etc.

I think KCBS might need to rethink their sanctioning. For example there is a new first year back to back contest in October here in Iowa that has been scheduled since January. The organizers are well respected so it should do fine however now KCBS has recently sanctioned another first time event for the same day 190 miles away. Seems one of these first year contests is set up for failure.

Another issue I see is communication in general. Some of these contests dont even have a website. I know of one that didnt have enough teams but their entry form was very hard to find. Was not listed on KCBS. You had to know the organization to go to the organizations website to download entry form. And another contest that has yet to happen that doesnt have a website at all. You have to go to their Facebook site send them a message you are interested and then they will email you the entry form. To me this newly sanctioned contest is in trouble because of this.

One issue I am going to write about I also have to walk on eggshells and will say I have only witnessed this once but have heard about it several times. I have been told it has been going on since KCBS started and it is usually the same teams doing it so maybe I have been oblivious before this. there was a team I helped out with a recipe last year that got their first ever KCBS call. I was not there but they called me to thank me and to tell me about almost being embarrassed about getting the call because a 'big" team threw a fit because they got a call better than him. Then at a different contest i got a call from a fellow Brethren telling me how he did at awards but how a certain team was acting like a general Ahole because he didnt do better. I was told another issue with this team at a contest I did but with the weather so bad maybe someone just misunderstood. I then did a contest over the 4th and a team was so upset about their calls(and they had some) that they were so loud when someone else got a call that the team that got the call said they wont do KCBS contest again. I talked to them at a backyard contest this past weekend i didnt even know anything about that until they told me. And finally i had an organizer assistant who i am friends with telling me how a somewhat "big" team was so upset at how they finished they broke their award in half. Later apologized to the organizers for it. I did not witness it but come to find out my 30yr old daughter did witness a fit being thrown by this person, not the breaking of the trophy but just a hissy fit as she described it. where was the apology to her or anyone else around that person? I then hear of a well known team that wont do contests unless he is paid to do them. I guess I thought the whole point was for all us teams to TRY to get paid. The teams I was talking about are good teams and successful but I would not call them cream of the crop.

I know for every bad apple there are some great people and teams and I would wear out my typing finger trying to list them all, but it is actions of some that make others not want to be involved and just take the fun out of things.

i am not trying to cause problems or make anybody feel they have to tell me I am wrong. I am already sure I am. But I hear and have said the arguments as to what is going on with comps like same teams, cost of fuel, cost of entries, cost of meat..etc but I honestly think there is much more that organizers can do and I think some teams need to lighten up and not scare new teams or audience away. And I honestly think KCBS needs to take a hard look at the number of contests it sanctions and the dates.

 

[Jason TQ]

One issue I am going to write about I also have to walk on eggshells and will say I have only witnessed this once but have heard about it several times. I have been told it has been going on since KCBS started and it is usually the same teams doing it so maybe I have been oblivious before this. there was a team I helped out with a recipe last year that got their first ever KCBS call. I was not there but they called me to thank me and to tell me about almost being embarrassed about getting the call because a 'big" team threw a fit because they got a call better than him. Then at a different contest i got a call from a fellow Brethren telling me how he did at awards but how a certain team was acting like a general Ahole because he didnt do better. I was told another issue with this team at a contest I did but with the weather so bad maybe someone just misunderstood. I then did a contest over the 4th and a team was so upset about their calls(and they had some) that they were so loud when someone else got a call that the team that got the call said they wont do KCBS contest again. I talked to them at a backyard contest this past weekend i didnt even know anything about that until they told me. And finally i had an organizer assistant who i am friends with telling me how a somewhat "big" team was so upset at how they finished they broke their award in half. Later apologized to the organizers for it. I did not witness it but come to find out my 30yr old daughter did witness a fit being thrown by this person, not the breaking of the trophy but just a hissy fit as she described it. where was the apology to her or anyone else around that person? I then hear of a well known team that wont do contests unless he is paid to do them. I guess I thought the whole point was for all us teams to TRY to get paid. The teams I was talking about are good teams and successful but I would not call them cream of the crop.

I know for every bad apple there are some great people and teams and I would wear out my typing finger trying to list them all, but it is actions of some that make others not want to be involved and just take the fun out of things.

i am not trying to cause problems or make anybody feel they have to tell me I am wrong. I am already sure I am. But I hear and have said the arguments as to what is going on with comps like same teams, cost of fuel, cost of entries, cost of meat..etc but I honestly think there is much more that organizers can do and I think some teams need to lighten up and not scare new teams or audience away. And I honestly think KCBS needs to take a hard look at the number of contests it sanctions and the dates.

Maybe this is occurring, but not around here that I've ever seen. I can see how it could potentially be an issue perhaps scaring away newer teams. If indeed teams are breaking trophies and throwing hissy fits and it is big enough of a deal then maybe KCBS needs to keep an eye out. But it could be blown out of proportion as to one person a "hissy fit" could mean simply being "upset". Everything is relative.

You are definitely opening a semi can of worms being vague and not having all the details or not sharing them all. Not saying it didn't happen exactly the way you are stating it, but there have been other threads like this stirring the pot, whether it was intended or not.

 

[Fat Freddy]

Maybe this is occurring, but not around here that I've ever seen. I can see how it could potentially be an issue perhaps scaring away newer teams. If indeed teams are breaking trophies and throwing hissy fits and it is big enough of a deal then maybe KCBS needs to keep an eye out. But it could be blown out of proportion as to one person a "hissy fit" could mean simply being "upset". Everything is relative.

You are definitely opening a semi can of worms being vague and not having all the details or not sharing them all. Not saying it didn't happen exactly the way you are stating it, but there have been other threads like this stirring the pot, whether it was intended or not.

I can absolutely see where you are coming from, and like I say I personally have only witnessed 1 issue and I am not sure of their reason for burning away like they did it could have been weather related or emergency related. Unfortunately though you are right hissy fit and upset could all be in the eyes of the beholder. But really even if upset should it be so noticeable to the public? I dont want to get into a debate simply because I wont name names, to me it would serve no purpose. But what I will tell you when talking to a couple of people that have been doing comps up here, that yes there are certain teams that are sore losers and have been for a while including a gentleman from Georgia who many years ago apparently made a scene because he finished 20th at the Barbeqlossal and that still has left an impression otherwise I would have never been told about it. That was before I started competing so i didnt witness it either but i stand by what i say that some of us cooks, not all, need to lighten up and realize even if they take it super serious actions "could" turn off other competitors or general public.

 

[Gowan]

While things certainly haven't reached that level here in Georgia, Jason, there definitely has been some shift since I got on board this crazy train a decade ago. I think we both could quickly name a few folks who have migrated from humility to elitism and can act pretty sour when they don't finish where they think they should. It's natural to be frustrated when luck turns against you with some wacky scoring, but when you start feeling entitled it's gone too far.

I have spoken with many backyard guys who say the reason they don't enter "Pro" contests is that they're intimidated by seeing all the big rigs, expensive cookers and sponsor advertising that have become the norm at sanctioned events. In my opinion, finding some way to make comp BBQ attractive to the little guys should be a top priority for KCBS, otherwise we will see an inevitable slide in the active team population as today's pool of cooks are retiring faster than new folks are coming in.

 

[tduffy]

While things certainly haven't reached that level here in Georgia, Jason, there definitely has been some shift since I got on board this crazy train a decade ago. I think we both could quickly name a few folks who have migrated from humility to elitism and can act pretty sour when they don't finish where they think they should. It's natural to be frustrated when luck turns against you with some wacky scoring, but when you start feeling entitled it's gone too far.

I have spoken with many backyard guys who say the reason they don't enter "Pro" contests is that they're intimidated by seeing all the big rigs, expensive cookers and sponsor advertising that have become the norm at sanctioned events. In my opinion, finding some way to make comp BBQ attractive to the little guys should be a top priority for KCBS, otherwise we will see an inevitable slide in the active team population as today's pool of cooks are retiring faster than new folks are coming in.

Just remember that the big expensive rigs don't mean anything. At the end of the day it's just meat in a box and the judges don't know if it came from an expensive rig or not.

 

[Jason TQ]

While things certainly haven't reached that level here in Georgia, Jason, there definitely has been some shift since I got on board this crazy train a decade ago. I think we both could quickly name a few folks who have migrated from humility to elitism and can act pretty sour when they don't finish where they think they should. It's natural to be frustrated when luck turns against you with some wacky scoring, but when you start feeling entitled it's gone too far.

I have spoken with many backyard guys who say the reason they don't enter "Pro" contests is that they're intimidated by seeing all the big rigs, expensive cookers and sponsor advertising that have become the norm at sanctioned events. In my opinion, finding some way to make comp BBQ attractive to the little guys should be a top priority for KCBS, otherwise we will see an inevitable slide in the active team population as today's pool of cooks are retiring faster than new folks are coming in.

I'm glad I just miss that or don't hang with them then :-D. But I know what your talking about :thumb:.

 

[Slamdunkpro]

While things certainly haven't reached that level here in Georgia, Jason, there definitely has been some shift since I got on board this crazy train a decade ago. I think we both could quickly name a few folks who have migrated from humility to elitism and can act pretty sour when they don't finish where they think they should. It's natural to be frustrated when luck turns against you with some wacky scoring, but when you start feeling entitled it's gone too far.

I have spoken with many backyard guys who say the reason they don't enter "Pro" contests is that they're intimidated by seeing all the big rigs, expensive cookers and sponsor advertising that have become the norm at sanctioned events. In my opinion, finding some way to make comp BBQ attractive to the little guys should be a top priority for KCBS, otherwise we will see an inevitable slide in the active team population as today's pool of cooks are retiring faster than new folks are coming in.

There's truth here. When I started wandering around these events there was a strong social element. Most teams cooked under canopies, there were a few RV's but BBQ trailers like porch trailers or toy haulers were a rare site. Friday night there would be fire pits, group dinners, and general camaraderie. Saturday the event spectators wandering around would see hives of activity as teams raced to get turn in's completed.

Today canopy teams are an endangered species. Today you see fellow competitors at the cooks meeting then most retreat to their RV, trailer or hotel. Today's spectator is treated to row after row of decorated and wrapped static trailers sitting in a row with nary a person in site. At the appointed turn in hour all the trailer doors open like the starting gate at Churchill Downs; competitors carrying their charge race to the judge's tent then return to their climate controlled box just as quickly. Once turn ins are finished teams race to clean up and hook up their trailers so they can be ready to leave in a flurry of tire smoke and gravel the instant the grand champion is announced (unless it's them).

 

[Gowan]

At our event next year, we're going to take a shot at this problem by paying prize money to a special subset division called "The Old School Challenge".

Here's how it will work:

Any team can participate that pays the regular entry fee. (we have no backyard at our contest)

Winners will be determined from the highest regular KCBS scores of participating teams.

Only teams that cook and prep on the ground are eligible for these awards. Teams can transport their gear in a cargo trailer and even sleep in a camper if they wish, but all prep, cooking and boxing must be done on the ground.

It will be interesting to see how this works out. We already have a decent number of canopy teams, but I'm hoping to entice some of the guys that call every year and ask "Do you have a backyard division?" to take the plunge knowing they have a goal to shoot for that isn't impossibly high.

We'll see!

 

[sweetracks]

Interesting idea. We are a "canopy team" that usually welcomces the "public" to come take a peak at what we are doing. Having screen windows helps because they can see and talk with us without getting in the way or trying to snag a sample.

A couple comments on the original post....Up in the Great Lakes region, we are still relatively one big happy family. Friday night potlucks are a regular occurance and even going out to eat with other teams happens frequently. I've only witnessed a couple bitter losers in my 6 years and I'm sure I've been seen throwing a little hissy fit looking at my score sheet. Anybody being seen breaking a trophy at a comp would have the rest of the field to deal with and can't imagine that happening. New cooks are welcomed with open arms (Especially in Wisconsin) and I regularly have conversations with newer teams on a friday night.

A few bad apples can ruin it. It just means that the good apples have to work a little bit harder to preserve the image of BBQ. Michigan also saw a cancellation this year but that was due to a very nervous sponsor. For the most part, contests in the Great Lakes Region are filling up and a lot are having waiting lists. I agree that KCBS does need to do a better job of sanctioning when it comes to contests on the same weekends. I believe there is/was a weekend in Wisconsin with 3 contests going on. With that many contests in a "non-traditional" bbq state, numbers will struggle at all 3.

Mindless rambling over :bored:

At our event next year, we're going to take a shot at this problem by paying prize money to a special subset division called "The Old School Challenge".



Only teams that cook and prep on the ground are eligible for these awards. Teams can transport their gear in a cargo trailer and even sleep in a camper if they wish, but all prep, cooking and boxing must be done on the ground.

It will be interesting to see how this works out. We already have a decent number of canopy teams, but I'm hoping to entice some of the guys that call every year and ask "Do you have a backyard division?" to take the plunge knowing they have a goal to shoot for that isn't impossibly high.

We'll see!

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

I think many peoples arguements in this thread relate

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=179113

 

[Podge]

I think Iowa is one of the toughest, if not THE toughest state to cook in .. a lot of outstanding, consistent teams. That's enough to scare anybody away.

 

[DawgPhan]

I really doubt that a team pitching a fit is what is causing contests to not come back.

The BBQ contest model is very tough business. The fact that so many contests exist is a testament to how hard BBQ are willing to work.

For BBQ to grow there has to be spectator money coming into BBQ that fuels growth.

Contests have to deliver an experience to spectators and get them to empty their wallet for that experience.

 

[thesemicullen]

How many contests are really driven by spectators? I am honestly asking that question; it is not rhetorical.

As a judge, it is more difficult for me to gauge public interaction with teams, but it seems to me that, for the most part, most competitions rely on some sort of festival to draw/placate the crowds. If you're cooking barbecue, most of the public just want to know when/where/how they can have some.

 

[Stoke&Smoke]

At our event next year, we're going to take a shot at this problem by paying prize money to a special subset division called "The Old School Challenge".

Here's how it will work:

Any team can participate that pays the regular entry fee. (we have no backyard at our contest)

Winners will be determined from the highest regular KCBS scores of participating teams.

Only teams that cook and prep on the ground are eligible for these awards. Teams can transport their gear in a cargo trailer and even sleep in a camper if they wish, but all prep, cooking and boxing must be done on the ground.

It will be interesting to see how this works out. We already have a decent number of canopy teams, but I'm hoping to entice some of the guys that call every year and ask "Do you have a backyard division?" to take the plunge knowing they have a goal to shoot for that isn't impossibly high.

We'll see!

Is KCBS on board with this? I would have no problem with it as about the only thing we do inside the trailer is stuff our boxes (with whatever garnish we're using) ALL prep, cooking, cutting, and final box prep is always done outside, and as long as they are polite and keep out of our way, we have never had a problem with visitors. We use an RV for comfort reasons, as we're way closer to 60 than 30, and have no desire to sleep on the ground.
Can't speak for the other states, but as Josh says, most folks in MI, WI, and IL are a pretty sociable group as a rule

 

[DawgPhan]

How many contests are really driven by spectators? I am honestly asking that question; it is not rhetorical.

As a judge, it is more difficult for me to gauge public interaction with teams, but it seems to me that, for the most part, most competitions rely on some sort of festival to draw/placate the crowds. If you're cooking barbecue, most of the public just want to know when/where/how they can have some.

I am going to go out on a limb and say that the majority of bbq contests depend on spectators. say 75% or so.

Entry fees for the bbq contests are typically not enough to support a bbq contests.

25 teams @ $250 is $6250

There isnt a lot of money there to pay for power, water, trash collection, lights, security, prizes, trophies, porta potties, KCBS fees, and the laundry list of other items that organizers pay for.

A prize pool of $3500 in Georgia means your KCBS event doesnt get teams the next year. Might not get them the first year if you publish the prize money. Unless someone thinks they can sneak a state championship.

 

[thesemicullen]

So then competitions of a certain size pretty much have to be held in conjunction with a festival of some kind. That makes me wonder how much of an impact the barbecue teams have on the success/failure of such an event then. My impression would be very little. That is, I think that for the majority of spectators going to these events, the barbecue event is a more a curiosity and less of a reason to go.

 

[Vindii]

First off you guys in IA can cook. Who wants to travel far to face that!! :bow:

All kidding aside I think most of it falls on the organizers. IF they don't get the word out about there contest they are doomed. Social media can be huge to spread the word. Having a team or two help pass it along does hurt also. As you said if its a struggle to find info and enter forms who will come.

We had 60+ teams in Fremont WI in early May when its generally cold as hell. Wouldn't have happened without lot of promotion. If they did what some contests do (promotion wise) they would have struggled to get 25.

Just my opinion.

 

[Candy Sue]

This is my opinion and not representative of KCBS...

Determining whether or not to sanction events, distance between the events as well as team density in an area are both factors considered. 190 miles is considered a far distance. While KCBS can suggest to the organizer that they have a presence in social media and have a web site, it's up to the organizer to get this done.

That's too bad that a team showed out that way. Bad sportsmanship for sure. Organizer has the right to not allow that team to compete the next time.

 

[Rich Parker]

I understand organizers want spectators to attend but some teams like myself are a one man show and aren't sitting in our trailers taking a siesta but working our butts off to get everything done.

I had a volunteer this past weekend give me the stink eye because I wasn't participating in their peoples choice or their other 10 ancillary categories. I have around $750 in to the event before I get there and am not going to jeopardize my chances at recuperating that for participating in a peoples choice where I can win some change or a bunch of ancillary categories.

 

[CBQ]

Determining whether or not to sanction events, distance between the events as well as team density in an area are both factors considered. 190 miles is considered a far distance.

Candy, I would love to see team density affect the mileage calculation.

In Kansas City, with tons of contests, 190 miles might be considered far. In New England, with a lot fewer contents available to us, I would consider an event 190 miles away a "local" contest.

For example, Smokin' at the Ballpark (Old Orchard Beach, ME) and the Sun BBQ Fest (Uncasville, CT) are 194 miles apart. KCBS sanctioned Sun BBQ for the same weekend that Smokin' had been using, and team attendance at Smokin' dropped 40% from it's 2013 number. The Sun BBQ Fest also had a low turnout for a contest with a 20k prize pool.

There are only about 40 teams in New England, so having two contests on the same weekend is a real problem. I think in New England, care should be taken to avoid conflicts within a 300 mile radius. That wouldn't work in, say, Georgia, but would be correct in the northeast.

This weekend contests in Troy, NY and Kingston, RI (195 miles apart) are doing the same thing - cannibalizing each other. We have so few contests up here, care really should be taken to isolate the weekends.

I would have cooked all 4 of these if they weren't piled on top of each other.