Professional judging, or lack thereof

[Unforgiven]

I firmly believe that taking KCBS down the NASCAR road would kill the soul of the thing.

I can see your point, but the reality is, WE are the soul, you, me, everyone involved. That would not change with growing it.

The reason I have even spent the time doing this, is because I have really discovered a very cool, fun thing for myself and my family to be involved with.

It is my hope that we, as a group can make it better.

 

[Jacked UP BBQ]

Has a thread ever been deleted before? can we make this a first???

 

[Unforgiven]

hmmm,
what is it about this thread that offends you so much?

 

[Transformer BBQ]

hmmm,
what is it about this thread that offends you so much?

Its a topic that is so over talked about and beaten into the ground people are sick of it. Please please don't take it personally, but there are hundreds of people who think they have the solution and the answer...

While you very well may be the one who does have the answer... talking about it on message boards real is just that... talk. I can see you've recently joined this group... we're very happy to have people who have passion about bbq, so welcome. Take a look around and you'll see thread after thread on this same topic and you'll get a feel of what I'm saying.

There is a KCBS rules committee every January that considers and discusses any changes. Ban power drafts, clarify par-boiling... etc. Changes come up every year and some happen some don't... if you want something considered there is a process that allows proposals...

When it comes to giant overhauls of the system... just realize that there are a lot of people who realize what we have has some flaws, but in general like it. There is a reason may have chosen KCBS format contests over some of the other options out there...

-B

 

[Unforgiven]

I appreciate your response, I don't see taking it up on a message board as just talk though. I see it as a first step. Almost all change begins with talking.

I hope this message board is able to do more than just be a rant area for people. I have always found that things are as good as how you use them.

I know that there are always people that want to dump on every idea and keep things the same. But if we as a competition are to be taken seriously, then we should have rules and judges that reflect the professionalism most of us want.

Once again, it is a question of fairness and equity. That does not have to wait for a once a year

 

[LindaM]

You are asking for professional judges.... be careful what you ask for. ....
Food Critics and chefs are the worst judges. They will score you so low you will be crying for weeks. Keep the CBJ's you have, they are doing a great job.

 

[Unforgiven]

You are asking for professional judges.... be careful what you ask for. ....
Food Critics and chefs are the worst judges. They will score you so low you will be crying for weeks. Keep the CBJ's you have, they are doing a great job.

I can understand your opinion, and agree in some part, but I really don't think I would cry. I don't always cook good. Often I deserve most of the scores I get. It the aberrant scores, that affect all of us, that concern me. They make the scoring system broken and meaningless.

I do not think all judges are doing a great job. I think some do. I think others lack the training and/or experience to do a great job. I think that those that bring their own prejudices to the judging table, in spite of the published rules, do a horrible job and do all of us, the competitors, a great disservice.

given that the difference between a great score, and a good one, can rely on a single judge, the system does need to be changed. It is more than possible to change it.

I have to wonder why anyone who competes would want to be negative, instead of offering something positive.

 

[YankeeBBQ]

given that the difference between a great score, and a good one, can rely on a single judge, the system does need to be changed.

Actually that statement is not true. It would take two low scores to kill you in a category. The lowest score is dropped.

 

[Unforgiven]

Actually that statement is not true. It would take two low scores to kill you in a category. The lowest score is dropped.

I have heard that from a couple sources, but have yet to find it in the rules except where it concerns a tie. Can you please direct me to where this is written?

Thank you.

 

[YankeeBBQ]

I have heard that from a couple sources, but have yet to find it in the rules except where it concerns a tie. Can you please direct me to where this is written?

Thank you.

4. The scoring system is from 9 to 2, all whole
numbers between two and nine may be used to score an
entry. 9 excellent, 8 very good, 7 above average,
6 average, 5 below average, 4 poor, 3 bad, and
2 inedible
5. A score of one (1) is a disqualification and requires
approval by a Contest Rep.
Grounds for disqualification:
Appearance: Unapproved garnish, sculptured meat,
marked turn-in container, foreign object in container,
less than 6 samples of meat or pooled sauce.
Taste & Tenderness: Sculptured meat, marked turn-in
container, foreign object in container, or judges not
receiving a sample.
6. The weighting factors for the point system are as
follows: Appearance - 0.5714, Taste - 2.2858,
Tenderness / Texture - 1.1428
7. The low score will be thrown out. Results will be
tallied. If there is a tie in one of the categories, it will be
broken by the computer, as follows: The scores will be
compared (counting all five judges) for the highest
cumulative scores in taste, then tenderness, then
appearance. If still tied, then the low score, which was
thrown out, will be compared and the higher of the low
scores will break the tie. If still tied, then a computer
generated coin toss will be used.
8. Total points per entry will determine the champion
within each classification of meat.
9. Cumulative points for only the four (4) KCBS
classifications will determine the Grand Champion and
Reserve Grand Champion (except the Dodge City, KS;
BarbeQlossal; Tryon, NC, contests, or at the election of
these organizers.)

http://www.kcbs.us/pdf/2008RulesAndRegulations.pdf

 

[U2CANQUE]

It sucks when we spend what we spend, to do what we do, to get slammed....but, we all know that it is part of it all. I do not hear complaints as much from when we are upset, thinking that we are turning something in that is not up to our standards....and low and behold get a call for something that we were not wanting to put in the box. You just cannot take it personally, it is not like they know who they are judging, and there is no such thing as a perfect set up on judging. All we can do is either let it go, or be miserable....me, I am going for the side of letting it go, and enjoying the ride.

 

[FatBoyz]

I have to say this I have had scotty and scots and others i know kick my ass latey...
I came to stop and rewind and find what I FARK UP!!!!! and I found it it is not the judges.it is each cook.... saying the judging is chit is saying scotty and scots you realy cant cook you just got lucky.... well bull**** if you cant handle this and be hounest with your self about your cook or your cooking booboos, then get into gardaning or pottery....on a personal note judge 6 was an asshole who dont no chit

 

[HBMTN]

>Actually that statement is not true. It would take two low scores to kill you in a category. The lowest score is dropped.



But if one judge at your table scores a 4 what all other judges are scoring a 7 and your lowest score other than that is a 6 then you lost 3 points there instead of one.

I don't think we want pro's doing the judging, like Linda said they would be too critical. Maybe the same judges judging all teams in say ribs where a low scoring judge scores every team in the comp, or two judges tasting together and giving one score after consulting each other. I just don't know.

 

[YankeeBBQ]

>Actually that statement is not true. It would take two low scores to kill you in a category. The lowest score is dropped.



But if one judge at your table scores a 4 what all other judges are scoring a 7 and your lowest score other than that is a 6 then you lost 3 points there instead of one.

Huh ?

 

[HBMTN]

YankeeBBQ, say like you stated the lowest score the 4 is dropped. But if the judge that gave the 4 who is scoring everything at your table low would have given you a 7-8 like all the other judges. Then your lowest score would have been say a 6 and the rest 7's-8's. If the judge who scores low would not have been at your table the and the lowest score for you other wise was a 6 then the 6 gets dropped instead of the 4. and gues after thinking about it then it costs you 1 instead of three in each catagory.

Here is my point: Two teams could go to a competition and set up side by side. Only one team cook meat and plate and garnish the same cut of meat identically. Then one team turn in one of the boxes and the other team turn in the second box. Keep in mind these are off the same cut of meat say pulled pork all pulled apart and mixed up and then plated and garnished by one person doing both boxes. Then taken to the judges tent at the same time. Now if one box ends up at one table and the other at another table of judges then these two teams could virtually say one finished 19th and the other finished 2nd. Soley because these meats were judged by two different sets of judges with different taste buds and idea's of scoring in their minds. I would not suggest teams doing that but hopefully that gets my point accross and that is why you can finish very high one time and cook what you consider not as good the next time and place much better.

 

[G$]

This thread reminds me how happy I am that we use 'competitions' as an excuse to drink beer.

:icon_clown

 

[Bentley]

There is a KCBS rules committee every January that considers and discusses any changes. Ban power drafts, clarify par-boiling... etc. Changes come up every year and some happen some don't... if you want something considered there is a process that allows proposals...

-B

I know I am seen as the great basher of KCBS by the CA BBQ community, but I feel this has to be said.

Its great that KCBS has a rules committe, but when you are a member and you send in ideas about how to make it better and you dont even get a response, you kind of think maybe its all just fluff!

Thats why I am not a KCBS member anymore.

 

[Unforgiven]

I have to say this I have had scotty and scots and others i know kick my ass latey...
I came to stop and rewind and find what I FARK UP!!!!! and I found it it is not the judges.it is each cook.... saying the judging is chit is saying scotty and scots you realy cant cook you just got lucky.... well bull**** if you cant handle this and be hounest with your self about your cook or your cooking booboos, then get into gardaning or pottery....on a personal note judge 6 was an asshole who dont no chit

I really don't think that to question a broken judging system means you are not accepting personal responsibility for bad cooking days.

I also think it is incumbent on us all to expect a judging system that is fair and equitable. Without us, the KCBS is nothing. True you have the “stars”, the teams that seem to mostly be the ones that win, but that goes more to the point of cooking to a baseline, rather than allowing anything different or creative. That does not mean what they cook is not good, in fact, some of it is great.

Without the rest of us, there would not be enough teams to make it profitable for the sponsors; there would be no KCBS, even with the stars.

 

[rbinms33]

Here is my point: Two teams could go to a competition and set up side by side. Only one team cook meat and plate and garnish the same cut of meat identically. Then one team turn in one of the boxes and the other team turn in the second box. Keep in mind these are off the same cut of meat say pulled pork all pulled apart and mixed up and then plated and garnished by one person doing both boxes. Then taken to the judges tent at the same time. Now if one box ends up at one table and the other at another table of judges then these two teams could virtually say one finished 19th and the other finished 2nd. Soley because these meats were judged by two different sets of judges with different taste buds and idea's of scoring in their minds. I would not suggest teams doing that but hopefully that gets my point accross and that is why you can finish very high one time and cook what you consider not as good the next time and place much better.

With 6 judges at each table, 3 criteria per entry and a scoring range on each criteria from 2-9, I doubt both boxes would be scored perfectly the same on each table regardless of the amount of training each judge is given. While it is possible, I believe it would be unlikely since each judge is allowed to input their own personal subjective opinion on each entry. This is a subjective opinion that is proportional to their own level of life experience with BBQ. To get to the level of equality you want to see on the scoring of both boxes would require objective judging with detailed rules and requirements to some level with no individual subjectivity whatsoever. Quite frankly, I think that would be rather boring for the teams as well as the judges. Of course, Transformer's robots might like it. :biggrin:

 

[YankeeBBQ]

Here is my point: Two teams could go to a competition and set up side by side. Only one team cook meat and plate and garnish the same cut of meat identically. Then one team turn in one of the boxes and the other team turn in the second box. Keep in mind these are off the same cut of meat say pulled pork all pulled apart and mixed up and then plated and garnished by one person doing both boxes. Then taken to the judges tent at the same time. Now if one box ends up at one table and the other at another table of judges then these two teams could virtually say one finished 19th and the other finished 2nd. Soley because these meats were judged by two different sets of judges with different taste buds and idea's of scoring in their minds. I would not suggest teams doing that but hopefully that gets my point accross and that is why you can finish very high one time and cook what you consider not as good the next time and place much better.

How about this. You turn both boxes of meat into the same table. I'll bet the judges give them different scores. I've seen it happen in judging classes. We cook all the meat the same yet present it as different entries and people give them different taste and tenderness scores. It's funny to watch. Humans are not machines.