OK,I have to admit

not a judge, but it doesn't take a judge to tell that bbq judges seem to be on different pages all the time.

is this why you guys discuss bbq judging so much?


i can only compare it to beer judging, which doesn't seem to have any of these problems with 28 different beer styles and well over a hundred beers within the styles. i dunno, just sparked my curious nerve.
 
deepsouth said:
not a judge, but it doesn't take a judge to tell that bbq judges seem to be on different pages all the time.

is this why you guys discuss bbq judging so much?


i can only compare it to beer judging, which doesn't seem to have any of these problems with 28 different beer styles and well over a hundred beers within the styles. i dunno, just sparked my curious nerve.
Click to expand...

One of the biggest differences I've seen between BJCP judges (I am not one, but I have judged beer) and KCBS judges is the talk that can and does take place between judges regarding entries. You can imagine the effect on scores, good or otherwise.

Here's a link to the BJCP Judge Procedures Manual, if you're interested:

http://www.bjcp.org/judgeprocman.php
 
Arlin_MacRae said:
One of the biggest differences I've seen between BJCP judges (I am not one, but I have judged beer) and KCBS judges is the talk that can and does take place between judges regarding entries. You can imagine the effect on scores, good or otherwise.

Here's a link to the BJCP Judge Procedures Manual, if you're interested:

http://www.bjcp.org/judgeprocman.php
Click to expand...


i'm well aware of all the bjcp stuff. i've been studying it to take the test for about a year now and have also judged beer for contests. whereas most of the beer judging sheets have been in the same ballpark, it seems that some bbq judges are not clear on what to score and what not to score.

are bbq judges given any guidelines (like the bjcp ones) when judging contests?

forgive me, just trying to understand all this more.
 
This is one of the things that I would address if elected to the BoD. There should be some type of continuing education for the judges, whether it be by classes (optional / required???), volunteering to help out at a judging class, online education, regular e-mail blasts or whatever works the best in a cost effective manner.
Personally, I think that volunteering to help out at a local CBJ class is a good way to do this. I've helped out at two classes since I took the class in early 2007 and both times walked out either learning something that I might have not caught the first time or something that I forgot.
There's an awful lot of info that's tossed at you in the class, I'm not sure that anyone can remember all of it :wink:.
 
From my judges training booklet, circa 2007

"If you do not eat chicken skin, at least taste it, if presented that way, and then discretely discard"

And..."Chicken may be presented with or without the skin. It may also be presented with a combination of white meat and dark meat or all one or the other. The type presented should not in any way affect the way it is scored."

I see nothing saying anything about not judging the skin. Still, I've tasted enough rubbery skin at the events I've judged that I would say, if it isn't good, don't present it. If it's in the box, it will be judged.
 
Rookie'48 said:
This is one of the things that I would address if elected to the BoD. There should be some type of continuing education for the judges, whether it be by classes (optional / required???), volunteering to help out at a judging class, online education, regular e-mail blasts or whatever works the best in a cost effective manner.
Personally, I think that volunteering to help out at a local CBJ class is a good way to do this. I've helped out at two classes since I took the class in early 2007 and both times walked out either learning something that I might have not caught the first time or something that I forgot.
There's an awful lot of info that's tossed at you in the class, I'm not sure that anyone can remember all of it :wink:.
Click to expand...

I'm a strong believer that all CBJs should be required to complete an online course on an annual or biennial basis in order to retain their status. For those that can't do the online thing :crazy:, a workbook with a quiz should be available for them to fill out and send back in.

You're exactly right in stating that it's nearly impossible to remember all of the information doled out during the CBJ class, and unless judges are actively participating in forums such as this or taking the time to re-read their manual a couple of times per year they are most definitely going to forget some of those details. At that point the letters 'CBJ' are merely a title and not really indicative of the qualifications the title-bearer should hold. Is continuing education a guarantee that every CBJ will be able to recite the rules and regulations by heart? Heck no, but it's a lot better than the system in place today.
 
Jeff_in_KC said:
I'd have to check to be certain but I don't believe it is within the rep's authority to just throw away comment cards, ridiculous and pointless or not.
Click to expand...

"Comment cards are returned to the cooks at the rep's discretion to weed out unhelpful or derogatory comments" is the way it was explained to me by a BoD member. I've seen reps do it at every event I've worked the judge's tent.
 
Jeff_in_KC said:
Crisp or bite through? :becky: I've never known where this idea of crisp skin comes from. It certainly isn't fried chicken and I've never seen chicken that isn't fried have crisp skin unless it's overcooked on the backyard grill.
Click to expand...

It's very possible to get crisp skin on a grill without overcooking.... I put my chicken in a 500ºF covered grill for about 10 minutes and then move it to a 375ºF grill, indirect heat to finish cooking. The skin fat renders quickly at 500º and the skin gets crackling crispy. You'll lose that crispness if you slather a ton of sauce on it; use very little sauce if any at all.

Granted, my method would be very different from the traditional turn in and probably wouldn't place very high because Judges seem to be pre-conditioned to want Chicken Candy, but it's damned good chicken none the less!
 
As a first year judge and head cook on a team, please take my opinions with a newbie grain of salt. I agree that requirements for judging need to be more stringent than a four hour class with no kind of test. There needs to be minimal information that must be retained to be a decent judge that is consistent with their peers based in minimal KCBS standards. With that said, what the higher standards are is the $64K question. Cooks and teams put too much on the line to be judged by someone that is primarily there for the free bbq. Please do not misconstrue this to mean that I think this happens a lot or is a problem. However, we all know there are a few folks there that don't really have the best interests of the teams and integrity of bbq at heart. Mildly tougher standards would weed some of these folks out.

From my experience, there's plenty of KCBS judges to do most events and waiting lists for a lot of them, so to make it a bit more serious and tougher to get and maintain your CBJ wouldn't, in my opinion, sacrifice most events still getting 100% CBJs judging that teams so desire.

If the casual judge spent a night in the heat or cold (or an early morning with a raging hangover...ok self induced and off topic ;-)), and knew the lengths cooks go to to provide a turn in that pleases the masses, they might respect the certification a bit more and take the responsibility more seriously. In my albeit short time in this community, I find that in my conversations, that cooks seem to know more about bbq standards than most judges.

The information and rules at the KCBS class are great and I really like the way KCBS competitions are set up. But I agree with others that it is too much information for a four hour class. With technology becoming more and more easily accessible and even the older generation getting connected these days, there needs to be a better way to pass the necessary knowledge on to all judges. This will only make what is already great in my opinion even better.

Please don't take this as a knock on judges. Most of the ones I've engaged with around the judging table have been absolutely wonderful and knowledgable and soooo helpful to new judges. But, as with any circle of folks, there's a few in the bunch that may not have the best interests of the overall mission of bbq at heart.

Sorry for the long post...I admit it's possible I may be way off, but that's my early opinion of what's going on out there in my area
 
Plowboy said:
Maybe now that Ed Roith is no longer on the board we have a shot and having online CBJ materials (videos) that removes the CBJ instructor X-Factor.
Click to expand...

I was considering making an e-learning course (it's what I do in my Real Life) about KCBS judging based on the judges CD, but so much of the judging criteria is subjective and very hard to quantify and present in a course.
 
ModelMaker said:
Send some of that non gooey chicken my way and I'll give it what it deserves.
Not all judges want candy chicken.
Ed
Click to expand...

I'm a CBJ, but I may just have to jump into competing next year. I'd like to open some of the judges eyes to what real-world BBQ looks and tastes like... I'll probably wind up DAL, but you never know until you try.
:crazy:
 
Do it Matt! You may surprise yourself and I know you'll have a blast. My team finished 10 out of over 20 teams and got a 2nd place chicken call in our first event. Our second is this weekend and we're pumped (but still trying hard to keep low expectations!).
 
Matt_A said:
I was considering making an e-learning course (it's what I do in my Real Life) about KCBS judging based on the judges CD, but so much of the judging criteria is subjective and very hard to quantify and present in a course.
Click to expand...

Now see, that's what I'm talking about! :thumb:

We need more ideas like that. I'm interested in hearing what changes YOU want. Will I agree with each and every one of them - - - probably not.

But I do want to hear them.
 
Last edited:
Matt_A said:
I was considering making an e-learning course (it's what I do in my Real Life) about KCBS judging based on the judges CD, but so much of the judging criteria is subjective and very hard to quantify and present in a course.
Click to expand...


95% of the course could be done online. Look at the BBQ Critic website as an example. Pictures of boxes can cover all of the appearance pieces. You can't taste, obviously, but any instruction about what and how to taste can be covered consistantly through an online course. All judges and cooks can know first hand what is being instructed, eliminating these "I was told this in my CBJ couse" horror stories we get from time to time.
 
Plowboy said:
95% of the course could be done online. Look at the BBQ Critic website as an example. Pictures of boxes can cover all of the appearance pieces. You can't taste, obviously, but any instruction about what and how to taste can be covered consistantly through an online course. All judges and cooks can know first hand what is being instructed, eliminating these "I was told this in my CBJ couse" horror stories we get from time to time.
Click to expand...

This is true but first you would have to get some difinative answers from KCBS on certain subjects like this one. Is SKIN to be judged or not? Like Dave said judge what is presented. Like I said it is a meat contest not a skin contest. I have also had at least one CBJ instrutor and two reps tell me judge the meat not the skin. Personally I think this does nothing but help the cooks (at least the ones that don't get bite through skin every time) and that is the impression I got from the reps that made these comments.
There are some more that needs difinative answers that judges differ on. But I'm sure not going there right now :shock:.
 
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