Official 2010 Jack Draw Results

[Rub]

I wanna hug you man! One Jack controversy solved!!!

That won't be necessary sir, I'm just doing my job

:wink:

 

[Finney]

Garry

See... Gary getting knocked to 4th made Scotty forget his name. :becky:

 

[Scottie]

Garry

I knew that. My bad. My brain must of been thinking of Jim Ballog from New Mexico.. Or my coffee didn't kick in yet... :thumb:

This whole thing just gives me a migrane. It's ridiculous.

 

[dmprantz]

I know that the IBCA did not submit the NM contest to the Jack as a sanctioned contest. So someone did...

I find this very interesting, but don't have a dog in this hunt and am trying to stay out. I am hoping to understand something about the process though, so will some one please help me:

JD makes rules about what a contest must be for the GC to qualify, correct? Is it then up to each sanctioning body to submit GCs based on those rules? Each team then submits a total list of all qualifying GCs?

From what I am reading, a sanctioning body announced that they do not want a particular comp to count towads the JD draw and did not submit it to JD. Is that correct? Did they some how unsanction the comp after the fact or remove the state championship designator?

dmp

 

[Scottie]

yes.

I also don't have a dog in the fight. Other than keeping the image and prestige for the greatest contest (Todd ) that we as BBQ cooks have going. I have a little invested and it is a shame that it has come to this for comp BBQ. A real shame that a tarnish has to be put on the Jack.

Ultimately, the folks at the Jack have to make a decision and live with it. It is their contest and it is a Invitational. They can pull the plug on anyone at anytime. I will be really PO'd if this contest pulls the plug because of this stuff. And yes, Brown-Forman has given it some thought...

 

[ThomEmery]

Not a matter of "unsanctioning"
The event did not meet the qualifier standards
so it was not reported as a qualifier
It was a state championship but lacked the team count at turn in
is my understanding

 

[Sledneck]

Whatever the decision is, it is being looked in to by the folks over at the Jack and they will be making a decision.

 

[Scottie]

My understanding is it's not the team count that is ultimately the decision to pull the qualifier status on it. The tickets were pulled from the boxes and there were only 5 teams called, instead of 10 teams, which is normal for IBCA contests and those were the deciding factors. But you know that, as I know your a Head Judge for IBCA... :becky:

Not a matter of "unsanctioning"
The event did not meet the qualifier standards
so it was not reported as a qualifier
It was a state championship but lacked the team count at turn in
is my understanding

 

[dmprantz]

My understanding is it's not the team count that is ultimately the decision to pull the qualifier status on it.

This is a big distinction to my question: The team count is specifically required by JD, as is state championship and sanctioning body. Teams called and bucket pickup are not specifically required by JD, so unless the team count was low, the state championship proclaimation was pulled, or the sanctioning body attempted to unsanction the event, it's up to JD to decide that the competition doesn't count, and up to the sanctioning body to request that of JD. It's not the duty of the sanctioning body to omit the qualifying event from JD, nor of a team to not claim the qualifying event. At least how I'm understanding it, but again, I have no interest in this, just trying to see my way through the understanding.

dmp

 

[Jorge]

This is a big distinction to my question: The team count is specifically required by JD, as is state championship and sanctioning body. Teams called and bucket pickup are not specifically required by JD, so unless the team count was low, the state championship proclaimation was pulled, or the sanctioning body attempted to unsanction the event, it's up to JD to decide that the competition doesn't count, and up to the sanctioning body to request that of JD. It's not the duty of the sanctioning body to omit the qualifying event from JD, nor of a team to not claim the qualifying event. At least how I'm understanding it, but again, I have no interest in this, just trying to see my way through the understanding.

dmp

Not to be difficult, but how do you know what a sanctioning organization is obligated to do in this case?

 

[ThomEmery]

My understanding is it's not the team count that is ultimately the decision to pull the qualifier status on it. The tickets were pulled from the boxes and there were only 5 teams called, instead of 10 teams, which is normal for IBCA contests and those were the deciding factors. But you know that, as I know your a Head Judge for IBCA... :becky:

There were less than 25 turn ins
Plus the tickets pulled plus the only 5 teams called
to top off the confusion over how many categories
were being included in the overall
Makes me thankful for K and K Mcintosh
every time I think about this contest

 

[Smokesman]

meat anomaly

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.... I believe that KCBS would have maintained the standings, which would have been Gary Howard getting the GC. Harry Soo would have gotten a check to compensate for the difference in prize money.

As for IBCA, that organization took responsibility for the errors early on and in public. Perhaps you missed that?

Thanks Jorge. Yes, my understanding as well, KCBS would have maintained standings however my point was if this were a KCBS event everyone knows to be in the GC running you have to cook all 4 meats hence this particular meat anomaly wouldn't have occurred - the rules are very clear. Unless I have indeed missed something, the only notation by IBCA regarding this matter is on the results page for the NM comp.

"Only the top 5 places were called as directed by the Promoter - therefore without calling out the other 5 places - the true overall results of the event are not reflected"

Why doesn't it also say "Due to XYZ circumstances this competition is no longer a qualifier yadda yadda yadda" or whatever decision was reached? Such a notation in the online public realm would have gone a long way to clearing up this issue. Everyone at the decision making level knew the possible ramifications this one contest held. We're not talking about a team gaining a single chance at the Jack over another team with only a single chance. We're talking about a team that potentially misses out on an automatic to the Jack based on this decision. That is a big deal!

 

[YankeeBBQ]

We're not talking about a team gaining a single chance at the Jack over another team with only a single chance.

Actually that is what I'm talking about. If this contest counts as a qualifier then I believe it's Garry Howard and the Smokering team that should be going to the Jack. That's my opinion and I aint changing it. Garry Howard is a stand up honest good hearted promoter of bbq from way way back and he got screwed and all the whiners that got the results of the contest changed bare some responsibility for that.

 

[Jorge]

Thanks Jorge. Yes, my understanding as well, KCBS would have maintained standings however my point was if this were a KCBS event everyone knows to be in the GC running you have to cook all 4 meats hence this particular meat anomaly wouldn't have occurred - the rules are very clear. Unless I have indeed missed something, the only notation by IBCA regarding this matter is on the results page for the NM comp.

"Only the top 5 places were called as directed by the Promoter - therefore without calling out the other 5 places - the true overall results of the event are not reflected"

Why doesn't it also say "Due to XYZ circumstances this competition is no longer a qualifier yadda yadda yadda" or whatever decision was reached? Such a notation in the online public realm would have gone a long way to clearing up this issue. Everyone at the decision making level knew the possible ramifications this one contest held. We're not talking about a team gaining a single chance at the Jack over another team with only a single chance. We're talking about a team that potentially misses out on an automatic to the Jack based on this decision. That is a big deal!

I understand what you meant much better now, thanks for clarifying it for me:becky:

I can't speak for IBCA. Shortly after that contest it was pretty clear to me that it wouldn't count as a qualifier due to the issues at that contest.

I do not have a dog in this fight. I've got an opinion, based on FACTS that I've been able to gather. I took the time to do that investigating so that I'd have a better handle on the discussion here. When everything is said and done I may share that opinion. For now, I'd appreciate it if members could stick to the facts and avoid speculation. If members have an opinion then they are free to share it within the rules. Just because someone is a thousand miles away tonight, doesn't mean that you won't be cooking next to them one day.

The additional comments aren't directed towards the Smokesman, but to members in general. Being a moderator this week has taken some of the pleasure out of BBQ for me, and I'd hate to see the same happen to others if it isn't absolutely necessary.

 

[Diva]

This is a big deal but I don't know if it's a bigger deal than
how Garry got screwed. But, hey, that's just me.

Edit: I wonder if the Head Judge of the NM contest received any type of disciplinary action or was terminated over that fiasco. If that person was there representing IBCA, it doesn't seem they did a very good job or stood their ground.

 

[Lynn]

I was told that I needed to come over and read this forum on the subject of the Jack Daniels draw and Harry Soo.

On the day of the event in NM - it was determined that the contest was a 4 meat event and all would count toward GC - that being said with all of the controversy - I spoke with the IBCA representative and was told that in no category were there 25 entries turn-in. At that time, after the Promoter asked that only 5 places be called, I told everyone involved that it would not be counted as a qualifying State Championship.

I did not report this contest as a qualifier to the Jack - but Harry did - which prompted an email from the Jack to ask about it. My response to their email was - it was a State Championship but due to the controversy of the number of teams and the number of entires I didn't submit it as a qualifier.

I have spoke with Debbie Christian from the Jack on several occassions and this matter has been discussed - therefore the decision as to whether or not Harry will be allowed to count the 7 wins will be made by the Jack.

Good Luck to all that were drawn.

IBCA is a respectible organization and we continue to grow - If those in doubt would just come and cook with us once or come and judge one of our events they would understand more about how our system works instead of bad mouthing the organization everytime something comes up.

I didn't want to get into this conversation but I deemed it necessary after reading all of the post.

Thanks for hearing my side of the story.

 

[dmprantz]

Not to be difficult, but how do you know what a sanctioning organization is obligated to do in this case?

Short answer is that I don't know as I have not read the documentation. I am just trying to make sure that I understand the facts correctly. My guess is that an organization's obligations are to be honest and forthcoming, and to not try to tell JD how to enforce its own rules. I would expect a team's obligations to be the same. Again, I am trying to make sure I understand the facts, and will probably bow out of the conversation now, but still read. I thought the issue was over bucket locations and 5 vs 10 teams being called, as did others, but apparently according to Thom and Lynn, it was also about there being < 25 teams, which changes things for me. If there truly were less than 25 teams and it was not a first year comp, it is interesting to say the least.

dmp

 

[DawgPhan]

I was told that I needed to come over and read this forum on the subject of the Jack Daniels draw and Harry Soo.

On the day of the event in NM - it was determined that the contest was a 4 meat event and all would count toward GC - that being said with all of the controversy - I spoke with the IBCA representative and was told that in no category were there 25 entries turn-in. At that time, after the Promoter asked that only 5 places be called, I told everyone involved that it would not be counted as a qualifying State Championship.

I did not report this contest as a qualifier to the Jack - but Harry did - which prompted an email from the Jack to ask about it. My response to their email was - it was a State Championship but due to the controversy of the number of teams and the number of entires I didn't submit it as a qualifier.

I have spoke with Debbie Christian from the Jack on several occassions and this matter has been discussed - therefore the decision as to whether or not Harry will be allowed to count the 7 wins will be made by the Jack.

Good Luck to all that were drawn.

IBCA is a respectible organization and we continue to grow - If those in doubt would just come and cook with us once or come and judge one of our events they would understand more about how our system works instead of bad mouthing the organization everytime something comes up.

I didn't want to get into this conversation but I deemed it necessary after reading all of the post.

Thanks for hearing my side of the story.

I doubt you will find people lining up for a contest where the rules can change the day of the contest and not everyone at the contest understands which categories matter. at least not anyone with any options.

 

[YankeeBBQ]

On the day of the event in NM - it was determined that the contest was a 4 meat event and all would count toward GC -

If those in doubt would just come and cook with us once or come and judge one of our events they would understand more about how our system works instead of bad mouthing the organization everytime something comes up.

.

Thanks for confirming that the rules changed on the day of the contest. (I believe it was actually right after the contest). You have cleared up any doubt I had, no need to put myself through what Garry had to endure.

 

[ThomEmery]

Background on the meats
In Texas it is Three Meats
In the Western Pit IBCA it is Four

Of course all this should have been
made completely clear long before
the contest started