Let's talk pork ... wondering if the taste profile has changed?

[Jorge]

If true that teams are just getting better, then it would mean that the overall scores are getting that much higher. That isn't the case. It isn't just about placement in the field of teams, it is about the number of 8's and 9's you are getting. Since judges don't, theoretically, compare teams, then what I'm saying about scores being overall higher would be true. I'm just not seeing that. I'm seeing scores staying the same, but teams with different recipes moving around in the field. That tells me that there's a shift in what's winning. Could be presentation style changes that are affecting that as much as taste.

I don't know that our points have to be mutually exclusive. As for the scores, I haven't done the analysis but I'd be willing to bet that the mean has gone up over the last 5 years. The range I'd expect to remain about the same. At the top end, it's usually the difference in 8s and 9s. I'd be curious to know what QUAU had to say about whether he's cooking better product than he was 3-4 years ago, and how his scores do or don't reflect the current quality of his product now vs. 4 yrs. ago.

I also agree that there has been a shift in the flavor profile. In fact, I suspect that there has been more than one. With the classes that have been taught over the last several years, there are a lot of people that have been influenced by a handful of cooks. I think that has probably served to draw the flavor profiles closer together for a large # of teams. When you were the only guy using your profile and process for pork, it naturally stood out. When you taught a couple of classes, and one friend shared some tips with another friend, and after some success that friend shared with.... There's a natural ripple effect there. I'm sure the majority of judges consciously try to judge each entry separately, but I also believe that it's reasonable to expect entries that taste very similar to be lumped together subconsciously. The second shift is people like yourself that, finding a consistent product has fallen off, start tweaking a recipe/process to set themselves apart again. Based on results, it appears that two teams were ahead of that curve earlier than most.

Put the 'Bug' in Paul's ear for some statistical wizardry:wink: I bet it would be interesting.

 

[Sawdustguy]

When I first started judging the pork entry was a pile of pulled pork in the center of the box. Today I see a combination of pulled, money meat, bark, fingers, tubes. The better entrys offer a wide selection of eye appeal, taste appeal, and profiles. A pile of chopped, pulled pork in the center of the box is average at best.

I think you hit it smack dab on the head. I think cooks are more saavy now being able to offer the judges a combination of samples in one turn-in box.

 

[bdodd444]

Hey Todd,

Any "share the new secret" discount for recent Plowboys class graduates or do we have to take the class again? :grin: For what it's worth your class helped me get my first chicken call 3 weeks ago. Well worth it for anyone considering it. Take care.

Brian

 

[Plowboy]

Hey Todd,

Any "share the new secret" discount for recent Plowboys class graduates or do we have to take the class again? :grin: For what it's worth your class helped me get my first chicken call 3 weeks ago. Well worth it for anyone considering it. Take care.

Brian

Sorry, you seem to be breaking up. Static on the line.

Congrats on your chicken call. :thumb: Other alumni from last year are seeing success after they've had the winter to practice techniques and try out their own spin on what was taught. I love getting updates like this.

 

[Sledneck]

Hey Todd,

Any "share the new secret" discount for recent Plowboys class graduates or do we have to take the class again? :grin: For what it's worth your class helped me get my first chicken call 3 weeks ago. Well worth it for anyone considering it. Take care.

Brian

I know you are probably just busting todds chops but I have been meaning for some time to bring this up. I know it's a bit off topic but here gos. This is not against Todd, have never taken his class. That being said. I Have taken a few comp cook classes over the past few years. I was wondering what the "etiquette" is after you take a class with regard to updates. Most of these classes are not cheap ( I know, I know learning curve blah blah ) so i will give an example of an experience I had . I will not disclose whose class. We were taught the "latest" technique on a category. This particular cook had gone on to win a consistent 1st place finish in that category a few months after the class. I know for a fact that the technique /flavor/ process was completely different than what we were taught so I inquired. Was basically blown off.
Am I required to dish out $500 every year? Just curious what other instructors and students thin about this topic

 

[bdodd444]

I'll go ahead and weigh in since I kind of started it with my post. I was just bustin chops with Todd. The classes are expensive. I thought the class with Todd and David was a real bargain, because it was essentially two classes with different techniques by two really successful competition cooks (that is my own personal plug). Since what I walked away with was more help on technique than flavor profile, I don't have a huge heartburn with an instructor changing their own flavors after the fact to help themselves stay competitive. I am sure some people walk away from the class and execute exactly the recipes they are taught in class and do well. Personally I think the better, more rewarding use is to take some key techniques and apply them to your own cooking. That is what I did. Although I did not use exactly to the "T" what Todd and David taught on the chicken. What I did learn was applied, and I fully credit that improvement in finally getting my first ever call in Chicken.

I think part of my attitude about this is because I do feel like I got a really good deal on the class. Would it be nice to get updates? Sure, but I think I would feel differently if I had a paid $750 for a one instructor class. I certainly understand your frustration.

 

[Plowboy]

I know you are probably just busting todds chops but I have been meaning for some time to bring this up. I know it's a bit off topic but here gos. This is not against Todd, have never taken his class. That being said. I Have taken a few comp cook classes over the past few years. I was wondering what the "etiquette" is after you take a class with regard to updates. Most of these classes are not cheap ( I know, I know learning curve blah blah ) so i will give an example of an experience I had . I will not disclose whose class. We were taught the "latest" technique on a category. This particular cook had gone on to win a consistent 1st place finish in that category a few months after the class. I know for a fact that the technique /flavor/ process was completely different than what we were taught so I inquired. Was basically blown off.
Am I required to dish out $500 every year? Just curious what other instructors and students thin about this topic

For $500, which is more than I've charged, am I required to tell you every process or flavor change for the rest of my life? That said, I've continued to coach students after the fact. Very recently, I had a call from a former student who was working on Brisket and was going through notes from a class. I validated a few things for them and even gave a new tip that I've been using that's been working. They won brisket and the contest the very next day. If I like you and you aren't an A-hole, I'll help you. That doesn't mean that I'm going to produce a monthly alumni news letter with every new recipe tweak. We'll, I would for about $5000 per student.

A student from my very first class cooked with me exactly a year later. Commented on several differences in what I taught versus what I was doing. (Took three 1st places and GC that day.) Just like everyone else, I'm trying to figure it out. I'm going to change little things here and there.

I know that this is hard for people to do, but I encourage students to walk away with new perspectives on cooking and not just recipes. As an instructor, I focus a lot on "WHY" I do things and not just what I'm doing. To me, the theory is more valuable than the recipe. The theories change very little over time and are the foundation of both today's recipes and tomorrow's. Most just want the step by step. To me, that will always keep them in a box. They may win something, but they won't be a better cook.

I've got a lot of interest in classes happening this year. I've even had multiple requests for private 1on1 classes. I've not scheduled anything yet. I'm trying to decide if I want to give it all away again this year.

 

[Plowboy]

I'll go ahead and weigh in since I kind of started it with my post. I was just bustin chops with Todd. The classes are expensive. I thought the class with Todd and David was a real bargain, because it was essentially two classes with different techniques by two really successful competition cooks (that is my own personal plug). Since what I walked away with was more help on technique than flavor profile, I don't have a huge heartburn with an instructor changing their own flavors after the fact to help themselves stay competitive. I am sure some people walk away from the class and execute exactly the recipes they are taught in class and do well. Personally I think the better, more rewarding use is to take some key techniques and apply them to your own cooking. That is what I did. Although I did not use exactly to the "T" what Todd and David taught on the chicken. What I did learn was applied, and I fully credit that improvement in finally getting my first ever call in Chicken.

I think part of my attitude about this is because I do feel like I got a really good deal on the class. Would it be nice to get updates? Sure, but I think I would feel differently if I had a paid $750 for a one instructor class. I certainly understand your frustration.

You wrote this as I was writing a similar response. You are spot on about not trying to copy. Also after teaching EVERYTHING I was doing, I felt that over the winter I had to make some changes to become better and stand above what I just gave away (or sold as it were). I'm cooking half as much as I have been the last three years because of work and Cub Scouts, but I feel like my overall entries are as good as they've ever been.

 

[Plowboy]

I know you are probably just busting todds chops but I have been meaning for some time to bring this up. I know it's a bit off topic but here gos. This is not against Todd, have never taken his class. That being said. I Have taken a few comp cook classes over the past few years. I was wondering what the "etiquette" is after you take a class with regard to updates. Most of these classes are not cheap ( I know, I know learning curve blah blah ) so i will give an example of an experience I had . I will not disclose whose class. We were taught the "latest" technique on a category. This particular cook had gone on to win a consistent 1st place finish in that category a few months after the class. I know for a fact that the technique /flavor/ process was completely different than what we were taught so I inquired. Was basically blown off.
Am I required to dish out $500 every year? Just curious what other instructors and students thin about this topic

To answer more directly, yes. I think you are required to take the class again. My opinion. If I could get a top cook to tell me everything he/she are doing for the rest of their lives for $500, I'd stroke a check immediately. That's a bargain and a half.

FREE TIP: I've switched from A1 to Heinz 57 on brisket. :thumb:

 

[Ron_L]

FREE TIP: I've switched from A1 to Heinz 57 on brisket. :thumb:

You told me that was top secret! No fair! :becky:

 

[The_Kapn]

You told me that was top secret! No fair! :becky:

That ain't no secret--been all over the InterWeb for months now :-D

BOT:
I do think the flavor profiles, or at least the judges expectations, evolve over time.
Seems like we are always a step or two behind, but catching up each event.

TIM

 

[Candy Sue]

Taking this back to pork...and I don't cook enough events to be in the same class as many responders above, but I've done okay in the Butt to Butt and pork is generally my best category. I haven't changed anything major in my basic seasoning method since I started in 2004. In the heat of the summer, I go saltier especially if judging is outdoors. I also seem to do better if I put minimal choices in the box. No more pulled bacon and absolutely no pork in there without bark. I am using a glaze on the meat instead of water to spritz right before turn in. I'll give a tip...Texas Pepper Jelly!

 

[Muzzlebrake]

Good question! this should probably be its own thread.........

I think that as a student you need to use the knowledge gained in class to develop your own techniques and particularly your own flavor profile. If you are constantly chasing the next "hot" technique or flavor you may be successful to a point but in order to succeed long term, you need to develop your own.

In addition to taking several classes the past few years, most everyone knows that I have a cooked with Andy enough and have a setup similar enough to his that I could easliy just go out and replicate what he does. Ask anyone that has cooked with me (including Andy) and they will tell you I don't come close to that. I'm fairly certain that while I may have had much more short term success doing so, I intend to do this for a long time and want to develop my own system that not only suits me but one I know how to fix when something is not working the way I want it to.

Also not all of the instructors are the same. Some may stick to their tried and true recipes and systems while others may be much more fluid, changing entire recipes and revamping whole techniques on a regular basis. I have found that many instructors are more than willing to to talk to you at a competition as more of an equal after taking their class and most are willing to share new tweaks in their process. One former instructor from a class I took, is more than happy to not only answer any question that I have asked, he also ends his answer with an invitation to come cook a contest with him.

 

[Kosmo's Q]

I have been judging for several years. Over the last two years the pork entry has changed more than any other entry. When I first started judging the pork entry was a pile of pulled pork in the center of the box. Today I see a combination of pulled, money meat, bark, fingers, tubes. The better entrys offer a wide selection of eye appeal, taste appeal, and profiles. A pile of chopped, pulled pork in the center of the box is average at best

Good point! I have seen entries that have rocked people in years past that would probably not do to well today based on appearance alone. I believe that the game has change and you really need to think outside that box (no pun intended) when you are talking about pork. Just my 2 cents

 

[Bourbon Barrel BBQ]

Pork was our best category last year with a top five calls regularly. This year its our worst category with only one call all year. No changes.

 

[Sledneck]

To answer more directly, yes. I think you are required to take the class again. My opinion. If I could get a top cook to tell me everything he/she are doing for the rest of their lives for $500, I'd stroke a check immediately. That's a bargain and a half.

FREE TIP: I've switched from A1 to Heinz 57 on brisket. :thumb:

I should of been more specific, I wasn't saying a lifetime. I'm talking about within the same year/ season after just taking a class. I would think if I took a class and som major changes were made right after taking the class I should receive a little note .


Heinz 57 pfffffffft, I will never turn my back on my old friend a-1:becky:

 

[HoDeDo]

Ok, just read this thread....

On the pork: Yes, I think the profile has changed slightly... having said that, good bbq, is good bbq. if you cook it right, it will still score well, even if it isnt winning. We have been doing the same thing for years.... and had solid pork. I know several good pork cooks - we all do it different from each other and all turn in great product. But if you aren't trying to continually get better, or more flavor, or something, it gets old right?

Some ideas on the why: So when I started cooking, most people made thier own sauces on the spot. lots of different flavors, mostly "KC style" sauces.... then there was a while when BBQ comps were all about a profile like "Head Country" sauce... in recent years, there is this stuff called blues hog, that you might have heard of.

I know a couple cooks that are constantly innovating and changing what they do to try to stay ahead... sometimes they win for it... sometimes they get beat up for it. But they are pheonominal cooks. period. I have been at several events, where Rob McGee will cook a completely different profile, on something, turn it in and win... then the next week, turn in something completely different and win again. So while the flavor profiles are important, I think cooking it correctly is even moreso. There are alot more folks cooking it right now... so the judging gets tougher and tougher. Rob's let me try his different chicken recipes many times... and it blows me away that he will turn in such different recipes. The key is they are cooked right.so they do well.

Interesting on the comment on the variety of meats going in... but everytime you add another meat to the box, you are judging against yourself. IF they love your pulled and hate your slices, it hurts your score... so I dont know that I would turn in 5 different styles or muscles, etc.... but that is just me.

 

[jbrink01]

Interesting on the comment on the variety of meats going in... but everytime you add another meat to the box, you are judging against yourself. IF they love your pulled and hate your slices, it hurts your score... so I dont know that I would turn in 5 different styles or muscles, etc.... but that is just me.

Andy,
Very interesting comment. Do you think this theory applies to burnt ends? I almost feel like burnt ends are no longer optional, but mandatory. What say you?

 

[HoDeDo]

Andy,
Very interesting comment. Do you think this theory applies to burnt ends? I almost feel like burnt ends are no longer optional, but mandatory. What say you?

Definately not mandatory. I only turn them in if they are perfect. If they tighten up at all in my test ones, if they arent exactly what I want... they dont go in the box. I dont want a sub par Burnt end to hurt my slice scores.

I used to always turn them in.... but now I only do when they are perfect, and that has helped my consistency in the catagory for sure.

 

[Sledneck]

Definately not mandatory. I only turn them in if they are perfect. If they tighten up at all in my test ones, if they arent exactly what I want... they dont go in the box. I dont want a sub par Burnt end to hurt my slice scores.

I used to always turn them in.... but now I only do when they are perfect, and that has helped my consistency in the catagory for sure.

Amen, it took me a long time to figure tha out