Judge what is presented.....or not

[Muzzlebrake]

Bunny, I hear you and by no means do I wish for this to turn into yet another judge bashing thread. I think things like this are more of an anomaly than the norm and the entire judging system gets it right more often than not. I was just wondering what are the consequences of a judge that breaks the rules of judging? As a cook if we break the rules, we run the risk of a DQ, which negatively effects only our team directly. If a judge violates the rules the consequences can have an effect on everyone it seems except that judge.

No offense to Tom or Chris but I'm not talking about trying to correct something as subjective as a judge that gives low scores. I'm talking about what happens when a judge violates a clearly defined objective rule such as we have in these 2 examples. What would happen say if a judge just opened up a beer at the table or lit a cigarette? How is that different from a judge using not only their own criteria but standards that are specifically highlighted prior to judging each and every time?
Reps are accountable to KCBS, organizers to reps, all of whom with help from table captains and judges, monitor cooks to ensure rules are followed. There seems to be a system of accountability in place to ensure that the rules are followed for everyone except judges and table captains. Shouldn't they be held to them same standard of accountability as everyone else involved?

 

[ModelMaker]

This is yet another reason for KCBS to keep track of CBJs and how they are judging, which is exactly what they are working on with their new software.

Judges that consistently score in the 5-7 range while others at their table are in the 8-9 range for the same category will be able to be identified and "counseled" or whatever KCBS is planning on remedial training.

Yes by all means lets "council" those judges that use the whole number range available and get everybody into that "8-9 range".
That will make competition BBQ more fun.
Ed

 

[Dr_KY]

And this is what sucks about bbq competitions. Any time you try to be a bit different, you get hammered because you must have screwed something up. When in reality, you just wanted to do something different. Just judge what your given and don't worry about why you were given that.

Been is the same situation. Actually watched a video of a judge pointing out that 'something must be wrong' because of the amount of sauce (pork) and size of the slices (brisket) and that is what he looks for when judging. :mad2:

 

[Pickin' Porkers]

If more judges consistently get into the 8-9 range then the number of ties are going to increase to exponential levels. It is IMPERATIVE that KCBS allow 1/2 point scoring to help alleviate all the potential ties. No sure about everyone else but I am not in favor of my placement being decided ultimately by a computer generated coin toss. Way too much money and effort goes into each category to see our placement decided by this method. Even though ties may be broken using the other criteria....judges need to be able to to score a sample correctly when "sitting on the fence" about what they have eaten rather than give the benefit of the doubt with the higher score.

 

[Slamdunkpro]

If more judges consistently get into the 8-9 range then the number of ties are going to increase to exponential levels. It is IMPERATIVE that KCBS allow 1/2 point scoring to help alleviate all the potential ties.......

How about just teach the judges to use the whole scoring range of 2-9 ?

 

[Pickin' Porkers]

How about just teach the judges to use the whole scoring range of 2-9 ?

Not a bad idea. From the judging I have done, very few entries deserve a 5 or 6 on taste. LOTS sit on the fence between 8-9 or 7-8.

 

[Bunny]

Bunny, I hear you and by no means do I wish for this to turn into yet another judge bashing thread. I think things like this are more of an anomaly than the norm and the entire judging system gets it right more often than not. I was just wondering what are the consequences of a judge that breaks the rules of judging? As a cook if we break the rules, we run the risk of a DQ, which negatively effects only our team directly. If a judge violates the rules the consequences can have an effect on everyone it seems except that judge.

No offense to Tom or Chris but I'm not talking about trying to correct something as subjective as a judge that gives low scores. I'm talking about what happens when a judge violates a clearly defined objective rule such as we have in these 2 examples. What would happen say if a judge just opened up a beer at the table or lit a cigarette? How is that different from a judge using not only their own criteria but standards that are specifically highlighted prior to judging each and every time?
Reps are accountable to KCBS, organizers to reps, all of whom with help from table captains and judges, monitor cooks to ensure rules are followed. There seems to be a system of accountability in place to ensure that the rules are followed for everyone except judges and table captains. Shouldn't they be held to them same standard of accountability as everyone else involved?

They are ABSOLUTELY held accountable. A rep threw a judge off the table at the American Royal one year for not abiding by our rules. The judge continually arugued with me and would not cooperate in anyway. I was the Table Captian and called the Rep over.

If a judge opens up a beer, he's/she's out. No questions asked. There have been few times, not many, that judges have been overruled because they were not abiding by our rules.

 

[Jacked UP BBQ]

When I took the judging class, they taught the pull test on slices for tenderness of a brisket, mentioned burnt ends, but didnt have an actual test for it. I really see nothing wrong with that comment card. I think it was constructive criticism which most BBQ guys cant handle from judges. I will say there are some funny comment cards out there, but this one is straight forward to me as a lesson.

 

[Jason TQ]

When I took the judging class, they taught the pull test on slices for tenderness of a brisket, mentioned burnt ends, but didnt have an actual test for it. I really see nothing wrong with that comment card. I think it was constructive criticism which most BBQ guys cant handle from judges. I will say there are some funny comment cards out there, but this one is straight forward to me as a lesson.

When I took the judging class last year I had the exact same experience. Tenderness was taught by the pull test. But then the reps are now trying to broaden the scale of what is acceptable for turn ins and not simply go by the old standards so teams can try and get an edge by tying something new without getting smacked down.

I got 2 others cards this competiton. One said they tasted a little too much salt on my ribs and another said the chicken was a tad over sauced. Those to me are constructive criticism and I am absolutely making adjustments for this weekend. But if reps are trying to say "hey judges there are now more than one way to turn in brisket" and it is being ignored then that isn't right. The reps at competitions have specifically mentioned there is nothing wrong with just burnt ends or putting something like chopped in there. So it isn't a matter of not taking criticism, but a matter of needing to educated the judges better, which is a work in progress and now happening.

 

[dmprantz]

They are ABSOLUTELY held accountable. A rep threw a judge off the table at the American Royal one year for not abiding by our rules. The judge continually arugued with me and would not cooperate in anyway. I was the Table Captian and called the Rep over.

If a judge opens up a beer, he's/she's out. No questions asked. There have been few times, not many, that judges have been overruled because they were not abiding by our rules.

Do you know if incident reports are filed in these situations? If a team breaks the rules, it runs the risk of being DQed and banned on a first offense. A Rep breaks the rules, he runs the risk of being "fired" from being a rep. Do judges run the risk of punishment beyond one day if they break the rules? I seem to remember a group of judges who were caught drinking not to long ago. Word on the street is that there was no long term punishment, though I don't know this for a fact.

dmp

 

[dmprantz]

When I took the judging class last year I had the exact same experience. Tenderness was taught by the pull test. But then the reps are now trying to broaden the scale of what is acceptable for turn ins and not simply go by the old standards so teams can try and get an edge by tying something new without getting smacked down.

I took my CBJ class three years ago (almost to the day), and I don't remember being taught that specific test for that meat. I do specifically remember that all tenderness tests were taught as suggestions, and not the exhaustive, perscriptive method for judging that criterion. If it were, they'd have machines do it. In that same class, it was stressed multiple times that brisket smoke ring is to be ignored due to the abillity to chreate one chemically, and that you are supposed to judge what is presented, even if it's not what you are used to. That's why we judged some chicken breasts in class. Neither of those rules are new within the last three years. Admitedly, not every CBJ instructor teaches class the same way, but that's what I remember.

To imply that judges are following orders and okay by judging any category poorly is just silly. Reps are responisble for explaining the current rules to judges, and judges are responsible for following them. End of story.

dmp

 

[Jacked UP BBQ]

When I took the judging class last year I had the exact same experience. Tenderness was taught by the pull test. But then the reps are now trying to broaden the scale of what is acceptable for turn ins and not simply go by the old standards so teams can try and get an edge by tying something new without getting smacked down.

I got 2 others cards this competiton. One said they tasted a little too much salt on my ribs and another said the chicken was a tad over sauced. Those to me are constructive criticism and I am absolutely making adjustments for this weekend. But if reps are trying to say "hey judges there are now more than one way to turn in brisket" and it is being ignored then that isn't right. The reps at competitions have specifically mentioned there is nothing wrong with just burnt ends or putting something like chopped in there. So it isn't a matter of not taking criticism, but a matter of needing to educated the judges better, which is a work in progress and now happening.

I agree they should be told and should judge what is in front of them, but unfortunately for us its not always that way. I have turned in chopped and burnt ends and got a top ten, but all my firsts in brisket were with slices and burnt ends. To me the more examples of the meat perfectly cooked the better you will be judged.

 

[Bunny]

Do you know if incident reports are filed in these situations? If a team breaks the rules, it runs the risk of being DQed and banned on a first offense. A Rep breaks the rules, he runs the risk of being "fired" from being a rep. Do judges run the risk of punishment beyond one day if they break the rules? I seem to remember a group of judges who were caught drinking not to long ago. Word on the street is that there was no long term punishment, though I don't know this for a fact.

dmp

Yes, that group is on probation. And yes, the BOD receives letters or reports from reps for misconduct or problems. They are dealt with according to behavior or rules broken.

 

[boogiesnap]

Yes, that group is on probation. And yes, the BOD receives letters or reports from reps for misconduct or problems. They are dealt with according to behavior or rules broken.

excellent. can you provide the list of CBJ #'s(not names)of judges that have been banned, disciplined, or on probation?

 

[Bunny]

excellent. can you provide the list of CBJ #'s(not names)of judges that have been banned, disciplined, or on probation?

I guess you could call KCBS and ask. They may not be at liberty to say. Some teams are not disclosed either. Reps are usually aware of names of cookers on probation and judges. So are organizers. I just don't think it's public knowledge. But not sure. Best thing is to call KCBS and ask.:roll:

 

[bbq.tom]

Yes by all means lets "council" those judges that use the whole number range available and get everybody into that "8-9 range".
That will make competition BBQ more fun.
Ed

You've definitely missed my point! I'm talking about judge #6 (or whatever you want to call them) that wouldn't give a 9 if it was the best thing they ever put into their mouth! If everyone else at the table thought it was an 8 or 9 and judge #6 thought it was a 5 there is something definitely WRONG with judge #6. It's NOT the "system" that I'm referring to, it is tracking judge #6 and either providing additional training to them or whatever other action the BOD deems appropriate.

I agree that too many judges are stuck in the 8-9 scoring category, but if something deserves an "excellent" then it should be awarded a 9. I've personally not judged too many entries that were "below average" or less.

 

[Bunny]

Just wanted to let you know I held a CBJ class in St Louis this weekend and this was definately brought up in class. You are to judge what is presented to you that day in that individual box. The scenerio was brought to the attention of the students and they totally understood it because they are taught that brisket can be pulled, chopped, sliced or a combination. They cannot judge down on what is NOT in the box.

Hope this helps.

Bunny

 

[arrowhead]

Just wanted to let you know I held a CBJ class in St Louis this weekend and this was definately brought up in class. You are to judge what is presented to you that day in that individual box. The scenerio was brought to the attention of the students and they totally understood it because they are taught that brisket can be pulled, chopped, sliced or a combination. They cannot judge down on what is NOT in the box.

Hope this helps.

Bunny

looking forward to you teaching our class in april.

 

[Jason TQ]

And here is the box in question. Doesn't look as good as I thought it did during turn ins :icon_blush:.

 

[Funtimebbq]

When I took the judging class, they taught the pull test on slices for tenderness of a brisket, mentioned burnt ends, but didnt have an actual test for it. I really see nothing wrong with that comment card. I think it was constructive criticism which most BBQ guys cant handle from judges. I will say there are some funny comment cards out there, but this one is straight forward to me as a lesson.

I have to disagree with your "nothing wrong" sentence. How is tenderness judged on the other meats. For me, it is in the tasting process, or more specifically, in the biting. This judge could have easily taken the burnt ends and bitten into them to test for tenderness.
If there were both slices and burnt ends in the box, would the tenderness be scored only by the pull test or would both types of cuts be averaged for taste and tenderness?
This judge was wrong and I hope the team sends their info to KCBS. I understand, the score cards are kept by KCBS and maybe they can determine who that judge was by the table/seat number on the actual score card and the judged admonished.

Benny