I gotta complain just a bit here......

It was mentioned earlier but i'll state it again. When a judge is obviously way off base with the rest of the table, It should be the Table Captains responsibility to inquire as to why they scored that way. On appearance i think it is more simple, if you have all 9's and one 7 then it should be easy to resolve. Taste and texture are more difficult as they could have gotten one bad piece of chicken or one bad piece of another meat which can easily be explained and accepted. If KCBS does move forward with tracking judges scoring, I think it will point out some simply harsh overly critical judges. It does make me wonder though, what is a 999 to these 766 judges?
 
I'm sure if you ask Alexa from R&Q about some their scores this past weekend, I'm sure she will have some categories that were a bit jacked up.
Wait, what? You mean the ones that went 999, 999, 988, 889, 667, 778?
And we got two comment cards for that category, that both indicated were from NON-CBJs.
 
We were right there with you Alexa ;) We drove home scratching our heads. Those scores look almost identical to some of our scores from Pueblo :doh:
 
. . . Until we judges are held accountable for our scoring that is way out of line, nothing will change.

Just my thoughts, FWIW.
I think that's an excellent thought because I've had similar thoughts.

There is A LOT of data that is captured on each individual judge at each competition.

The judges who are consistently judging 'outside' the norm could be directed to retrain . . . for example.

OR - a judge who scores outside the norm could be avoided (culled from the pool) when organizers are reviewing prospective judges for an upcoming event.

But I suppose dropping the low score leads to the same effect and keeps the amount of data entry on site to a minimum.
 
Interesting...

I'm not a big "these judges don't know what they're talking about" kind of person, because for the most part they seem to be pretty fair (for the most part).

With that being said, all sports officials from recreational fields to high school athletics to college to major sports must have annual assessments to move up the ranks. That requires a "senior" official reviewing your performance and talking you through some of the points as to what they assessed. Judges should be assessed and if they are not interested in growing...they should be used for a contest when there is not another more qualified judge around.

This is exactly how they do it for most athletic events...they want to get the best possible people, that have proven experience, the most opportunity so that the results are skewed the least. Everybody should want to be better, just like most q'rs want to get better.

This is how they weed out those that are just there to be there.
 
My cbj instructor made a statement at the end of our class that stuck with me. He said in effect "if you go in looking to find bad BBQ you will. If you look for good BBQ you will find that. Let's all go find the good BBQ." I liked that way of thinking and have always looked for the good in every entry I judged. Didn't always find it, but I always looked.
 
Wait, what? You mean the ones that went 999, 999, 988, 889, 667, 778?
And we got two comment cards for that category, that both indicated were from NON-CBJs.

At some point in time, some people just should not be judging. 667 to 999? That's way off in everything! It looks to me like you got one or two folks who just dont like barbecue, and shouldn't judge.

Curious, what meat, and what were the comments?
 
Sorry, but what does that matter? We're all out in a wet field cooking overnight and it's a lot of work.

A very, very wet field last weekend. :becky:

I judged the Anything Butt category at Cape Cod because I was doing only the KCBS contest. After judging, we discussed what we liked and disliked. I, and the three judges to the right of me, all picked the same dish as the worst one. The guy on my left said the same dish was has favorite.

There is a subjective element to judging, but we all have to deal with that, even the mysterious 9 9 8 6 6 9 on appearance.
 
At some point in time, some people just should not be judging. 667 to 999? That's way off in everything! It looks to me like you got one or two folks who just dont like barbecue, and shouldn't judge.

Curious, what meat, and what were the comments?

I'll throw a little gas on this.

It's always the 667 judge that gets the hit for being out of whack, in the example you cited you had 999, 999, 988, 889, 667, 778. Who's to say the the 2 999 judges weren't the ones out of line? When I table captain or tabulate scores I've observed that new judge's scores trend higher than more experienced judges, and that judges who tend to be the most critical are cooks.
 
Intersting point of view. Never thought of it this way. I can see this argument, however, the contest rep will not put that many newbie judges on a table will they???? Unless there is a dire shortage of judges? On these scores, I would say that at a minimum J5 should at least fill out a card for the team......what team out there competiting would NOT WANT to know why this judge gave them a 6 in appearance when the others threw higher scores????? I do not think this would be too much to ask from the judges. It would take that guy a whole 30 seconds to scetch something down for the team that turned the box in. If I received these scores, and that judge gave me a comment on "hey, i thought this looked xxxxx is why I scored a 6 and I thought the taste was xxxx and I my piece was tough" then I might not like it, but at lease I would have the satisfaction and basis of something to improve upon.

I'm glad I started this thread. In all honesty, all of our/your points are good and all valid. I think we could all argue this endlesly!!!! I've cooled down considerably since orignally posting this because from looking at some of these other "rate my box" posts, I think maybe my perception of scores was off.

That being said, I'm still standing by my thought that if a judges score is far lower than the others and comment card should be rendered to the team. Again, not asking him to change his score, but at least justify it to the team.


I'll throw a little gas on this.

It's always the 667 judge that gets the hit for being out of whack, in the example you cited you had 999, 999, 988, 889, 667, 778. Who's to say the the 2 999 judges weren't the ones out of line? When I table captain or tabulate scores I've observed that new judge's scores trend higher than more experienced judges, and that judges who tend to be the most critical are cooks.
 
On these scores, I would say that at a minimum J5 should at least fill out a card for the team......what team out there competiting would NOT WANT to know why this judge gave them a 6 in appearance when the others threw higher scores?????
The judge gave them a 6 - above average, not a 4. J5 doesn't know how the other judges scored unless the table captain tells them (and they aren't supposed to) The TC or rep might have asked why J5 rated that entry a 6 and suggest a comment card, but they won't come out with "the other judges gave this a 9 and you gave it a 6, why?", again, they aren't supposed to. If they did, it could be considered score tampering, influencing J5 to raise their scores on the next turn in - which is also unfair to other teams. The other issue with comment cards is that in this scenario, let's say the entry in question was sample #1; the TC or rep is asking the judge (maybe a new judge) to think back 6 samples ago after 15 minutes has elapsed and remember what they didn't care for.
 
To some extent yes. But when consistent winners like the names you mention above get whacked by a "rogue" judge, do you think they're happy with it? This last weekend Johnny Trigg took 41st out of 47 teams in Ribs. Something tells me that the cream didn't quite make it to the top that day. I'm sure if you ask Alexa from R&Q about some their scores this past weekend, I'm sure she will have some categories that were a bit jacked up. Talent does rise, but one "rogue" judge can cost a team thousands of dollars.

I guess I am confused. I really do understand and believe the cream will rise to the top ... but I also understand that there is no body that can win every contest every time out. I dont care who they are. Everyone can have an off day and everyone can catch a bad table. It is very feasible to get a table that has 6 people that just dont care for your product .... and if you had a bad day as well ....

I really enjoy this hobby. I really like most of the people I meet. What I dont like are the ones that always want to blame everyone or everything else when they have an off day. It takes more than "one" rogue judge ... and why is he "rogue" just because maybe he/she did not like what they saw or tasted?
 
I'll throw a little gas on this.

It's always the 667 judge that gets the hit for being out of whack, in the example you cited you had 999, 999, 988, 889, 667, 778. Who's to say the the 2 999 judges weren't the ones out of line? When I table captain or tabulate scores I've observed that new judge's scores trend higher than more experienced judges, and that judges who tend to be the most critical are cooks.

Excellent observation. Reminds of the guys that never complain when the get good scores for crappy product. And yes we have all been there!
 
Just one more thought ... for all of those that are unhappy with CBJ's and/or their scores ....

I issue an invitation to have any or all of you come on down to Texas and cook. Different exposure might make some of you feel better about what you have ... or not. Either way you will meet a lot of good folks and have some fun along the way .....
 
Yes, no doubt cooking in Texas would make me very, very grateful for KCBS and its foibles
crylaugh.gif



Disclaimer: Yes, we've cooked our share of IBCA contests.
 
I read through this thread and found all of your comments very interesting since I plan on taking a judging class in Nov. and then I'll be one of those "green" judges trying to learn the ropes. I do quite a bit of BBQ at home on my BGE but have not competed or really have a burning desire to compete due more to cost and time considerations. As a result, I see judging as a way to experience the competitive BBQ world and to give back to those who have inspired me and learned from.
I have also been a teacher for 30+ years which I think gives me an interesting perspective on the grading of BBQ. One of the consistent veins of this discussion is the thought that judges who do not compete themselves have a difficulty appreciating the "blood, sweat and tears" that goes into a competition box. Teachers hear this same argument but it goes something like this - "I should get an "A" because I worked REALLY hard on this project, assignment, test, etc." While I will acknowledge their work ethic, I base my score on what I components feel a paper or project should have. When I taught an advanced placement class, I had to grade papers based on a set criteria. The scores that students got were based on how well they knew the content as well as being able to perform to AP standards on the essays. It had very little to do with how hard they worked during the year. Bringing this back to BBQ, judging shouldn't reflect how much sleep you got the night before, that you had a poor cut of meat or that you have $400 in entry fees and meat costs. Quality is quality and that is what should be judged.
That being said, I can assure you that BBQ judges are not the only ones that can give scores that wildly vary or are inflated. Teachers who grade AP tests are trained similarly and spend at least a day reviewing so you don't get a wide variance in scoring. Two things those make this different from BBQ judging, first, the graders have a very strict rubric that they have to follow. If their scores are way off, the table leader will have a discussion with them and if need be, they will be dismissed. There is just too much riding on these test to allow incompetence or personal prejudices to influences scores. The problem though is that the students are all writing the same essay. Compare that to a BBQ contest where a person's' chicken can be different even though it was cooked by the same person for the same time period. Maybe a stronger and more consistent rubric is in order - I don't know since I haven't judged but it is a thought. Also, it is my understanding that judges aren't paid (but they can eat well!). With the number of judges in a contest with wide ranges of experience, its probably amazing that the scores are consistent as they are.
Being a newbie at all this, I look forward to the day that I judge my first contest and hope that I'm not the jerk judge that we all dread. I would also like to help a team so that I can learn firsthand what it takes to cook competitive BBQ.
Good luck to you all and happy BBQ'ing.
 
I look forward to tasting your entries at the BBQ Brethren Battle of the BBQ Brethen in LI in Manorville....

Yours in BBQ,

Cliff


I appreciate the support, but we are more enthusiastic than talented. As long as we have fun, we're happy (but I'm sure we'd be happier w/ a trophy or two!).

Eric
 
In the SCBA (South Carolina BBQ Assoc). we have a way of dealing with rogue Judge scores. In SCBA, (6 Judges & a Table Captain) The Table Captain samples the entry and judges as if it counted. If all is well, the Table Captains scores are not used, but if one judge has a total score lower than 10 (out of 1-17) then the Table Captain asks for an explanation of the low score and will usually substitue his score replacing the low score.
 
I'll throw a little gas on this.
I've observed that new judge's scores trend higher than more experienced judges, and that judges who tend to be the most critical are cooks.
I've been a cook for 7 years, and during my judging class the rep advised me that I was being too critical. I disagreed in that the box we were discussing was "thrown together" and if the cook can't take time to make it nice I'll judge accordingly.
 
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