First (and probably last) time judging

[Slamdunkpro]

{rant}
My favorite comment from my judging class was "The cooks work hard and they aren't going to turn in poor food". Bullpocky! I've tasted some real crap and I've scored it accordingly. There is a lot of pressure on the judges to give high marks because "the cooks spend so much time, effort and money to compete". Well boo-hoo, let's just give everyone 9's, call it a tie and give everyone "participation" awards like they do in some "progressive" kids sports leagues.

Maybe it's time to face the facts that KCBS judging is a totally subjective scoring system with no standards whatsoever other than"it's what you like" - that's what they teach in the judge's classes (ZBQ can back me up on this we were in the same class - every question about taste got the same answer "base it on what you like"). How this isn't saying "judge based on personal preference" is beyond me.

Maybe it's also time to consider that some of those 4's and 5's might actually be deserved and not just poor judging. I got a burnt end at a contest not too long ago that had a foreign object in it (piece of bone). I'm sure the cook didn't know it was there, but it was in my sample. The piece was inedible - period. I scored it as such. I then got a lot of pressure from the rep to bring my score "more in line" with the others as to not "punish the cook". Sorry, they turned it in, and I can only judge based on what is put in front of me.
{/rant}

I posted this in another thread, but I'll post it again here:

Here's my perspective as a judge:

I don't care how much money competitors spend, how far they travel or how much work goes into what's in front of me at judge's table. I know it's a lot but none of that matters. I look at each entry the same regardless of whether the competitor drove 5 miles or 500, spent $100 or $10,000.

When that box is opened, I judge:

Appearance:
Is it legal under KCBS rules?
Overall, how appetizing does the meat look?
Does it look dry or greasy?
Is the overall presentation clean?
If portioned, are the portions even?
If garnished, is the box balanced or does the garnish overwhelm or take away from the meat?
How much do I want to eat this entry based on what I see?

Tenderness:
Is it undercooked? (tough)
Is it overcooked? (ribs fall off the bone, brisket falls apart, pork mushy, chicken rubbery)

Taste:
Do I get the taste of the product itself?
Is it over/under salted?
Is it over/under seasoned?
Is it greasy?
Is it dry?
If pork, it it over cured (Hammy)?
If sauced, does the sauce compliment the product or overwhelm it?
How is the overall balance of flavor/sweet/heat?
How is the finish flavor?
Is there an aftertaste?

I do this for every sample put in front of me and score based on these criteria.

 

[Divemaster]

First of all, I would like to say that judging is what brought me in to doing comps and not the other way around. My first judging experience was over 6 years ago at the Royal Open. It was there that I discovered how much 'distasteful' food (most p/c I could be without calling it s*%t) was being turned in.

I am a CBJ and have judged a number of contests, and I'll never do it again.

In my KCBS judging class I was one of the lower scoring students (having cooked 3 years). It was suggested that those people worked so hard, they would be upset at my scores.

I have not and will not judge. If you cook sh*t, I'll score it accordingly!

So was I and I feel the same way and expect to be treated the same. If I turn in crap I expect to be scored as such!

Sorry, but I don't think your competent to be judging! You obviously don't know what a burnt end is and your scoring down for that and your bringing in your personal preferences into your judging and scoring down for that.

Sorry to be harsh here but many of us invest as much as $1000 per contest and expect those that are judging the cooks to have a minimal knowledge of what they are judging.

I'd give you a three as a judge and I'm being kind here!

I'll give you a 7 for being honest and seeking improvement!

Its nice to know that someone is looking at scores that deviate significantly from the norm.

Why are you attacking him, was it your entry? Based on the description, I would have scored it the same!

I don't have a real problem with an all Burnt End Entry, but if you want to go with the 'Norm' (quoting you) where are the slices like every one else turned in? If I see an entry as described, the first thought is that the entry is really screwed up and most likely over cooked. What did the Reps do when they saw it?

Yes we do all spend upwards of a 1000 but I would hate to keep spending it an turning out bad food and not knowing how bad it was because a table of judges felt bad and didn't want to offend me because of their conscience on how much of my effort and money went in to it. That should be left at the door.

Thank you Sled. I too spend a good chunk of money on comps. But I would rather have scores that ACURATLY represent my entry than a higher score to make me feel good... To be honest, I don't like being lied to.

 

[StayDown]

{rant}
My favorite comment from my judging class was "The cooks work hard and they aren't going to turn in poor food". Bullpocky! I've tasted some real crap and I've scored it accordingly. There is a lot of pressure on the judges to give high marks because "the cooks spend so much time, effort and money to compete". Well boo-hoo, let's just give everyone 9's, call it a tie and give everyone "participation" awards like they do in some "progressive" kids sports leagues.

Maybe it's time to face the facts that KCBS judging is a totally subjective scoring system with no standards whatsoever other than"it's what you like" - that's what they teach in the judge's classes (ZBQ can back me up on this we were in the same class - every question about taste got the same answer "base it on what you like"). How this isn't saying "judge based on personal preference" is beyond me.

Maybe it's also time to consider that some of those 4's and 5's might actually be deserved and not just poor judging. I got a burnt end at a contest not too long ago that had a foreign object in it (piece of bone). I'm sure the cook didn't know it was there, but it was in my sample. The piece was inedible - period. I scored it as such. I then got a lot of pressure from the rep to bring my score "more in line" with the others as to not "punish the cook". Sorry, they turned it in, and I can only judge based on what is put in front of me.
{/rant}

I posted this in another thread, but I'll post it again here:

Here's my perspective as a judge:

I don't care how much money competitors spend, how far they travel or how much work goes into what's in front of me at judge's table. I know it's a lot but none of that matters. I look at each entry the same regardless of whether the competitor drove 5 miles or 500, spent $100 or $10,000.

When that box is opened, I judge:

Appearance:
Is it legal under KCBS rules?
Overall, how appetizing does the meat look?
Does it look dry or greasy?
Is the overall presentation clean?
If portioned, are the portions even?
If garnished, is the box balanced or does the garnish overwhelm or take away from the meat?
How much do I want to eat this entry based on what I see?

Tenderness:
Is it undercooked? (tough)
Is it overcooked? (ribs fall off the bone, brisket falls apart, pork mushy, chicken rubbery)

Taste:
Do I get the taste of the product itself?
Is it over/under salted?
Is it over/under seasoned?
Is it greasy?
Is it dry?
If pork, it it over cured (Hammy)?
If sauced, does the sauce compliment the product or overwhelm it?
How is the overall balance of flavor/sweet/heat?
How is the finish flavor?
Is there an aftertaste?

I do this for every sample put in front of me and score based on these criteria.

Sounds to me like you have the right idea.

 

[timzcardz]

This past weekend I recieved these numbers for tenderness on my chicken.
8-9-7-9-8-5

Im thinking judge #6 had dull teeth.:mrgreen:

Why? Did all 6 judges somehow get the same piece?

Maybe all 6 judges got it 100% right, and perhaps you put a tough piece in there that #6 ended up with.

 

[HeSmellsLikeSmoke]

In my judging class, those in the class who competed, consistently had the lowest scores during the class.

The instructor then went on to say that the NEBS (if I remember who correctly ) has run test judging sessions to see if competitors would score more fairly than judges who had not competed themselves. The results showed that those judges who competed were much harsher and gave much lower scores.

Maybe this explains to some extent where Sir Smoke A Lot is coming from here.

One of the Brethren might have been involved and could give us some insight on this.

 

[Brew-B-Q]

This past weekend I recieved these numbers for tenderness on my chicken.
8-9-7-9-8-5

I'm thinking judge #6 had dull teeth.:mrgreen:

In my first (and only so far) comp I received the following scores for ribs, Taste: 9-8-7-7-7-4

Makes me wonder if they should throw out the low and high for each category. Did they ever do it that way?

 

[Podge]

This past weekend I recieved these numbers for tenderness on my chicken.
8-9-7-9-8-5

Im thinking judge #6 had dull teeth.:mrgreen:

I had a judge give me a 5 in appearance on chicken when the rest gave me 8's or 9's.. he/she must've been blind :icon_sleepy:icon_pissed:icon_sick

 

[HeSmellsLikeSmoke]

In my first (and only so far) comp I received the following scores for ribs, Taste: 9-8-7-7-7-4

Makes me wonder if they should throw out the low and high for each category. Did they ever do it that way?

KCBS throws out the low.

 

[Dale P]

Why? Did all 6 judges somehow get the same piece?

Maybe all 6 judges got it 100% right, and perhaps you put a tough piece in there that #6 ended up with.

Did they all get the same piece? Are you trying to be funny? Funny is fine, because that is what I was trying to do in my post, you know, laugh it off.

Was one piece not as good?
That is possible.

 

[Smokin Gator]

KCBS throws out the low.

FBA doesn't and I sure wish they would.

 

[Rhapsody]

judging isn't that hard. If you look at the food, do you want to eat it? How much? Thats where I start with my appearance score. I don't care what green is in the box, its about the meat and if IT looks good. As far as the brisket goes, that fat is there and I would score it accordingly, but it is a fatty piece of meat and a little beef fat isn't a bad thing. Some burnt ends I've pulled out of boxes, with fat, have been some of the best things I've had all day at a table. Take it all for what it is, not what you expect, believe or want.

 

[Big George's BBQ]

As long as you feel you are being honest and fair as a judge that is what is important. When that part of the Comp is over ask the other people at the table how they scored things so you can see how you scored compared to them. You can not talk during judging but you can afterwards

 

[smoke showin']

stick to cooking it is more fun any way !

 

[Dale P]

I had a judge give me a 5 in appearance on chicken when the rest gave me 8's or 9's.. he/she must've been blind :icon_sleepy:icon_pissed:icon_sick

Podge's Chicken Table

#1:-D my that looks good

#2:eusa_clap awesome

#3:icon_sick Im already full

#4:shock: I see a piece of skin curling

#5:icon_shock1: #6 just felt up my leg
#6:icon_cool feels kinda feathery, that cant look good. 5

 

[Jeff_in_KC]

Having read this entire thread through, I'd agree that the original poster should either learn more about comp BBQ or stay away from judging areas!

I'm glad Sled posted the actual scoring definitions because I was going to if he didn't. No where in that list is a number defined as "well-cooked". And the sauce being too sweet causing you to score lower is really annoying to me!

OK I just have to mention this thing about being considerate of the time, effort and cash teams spend on this stuff in your scoring. Personally, I've made a similar comment before BUT I've never advocated cooks getting higher scores BECAUSE of it. What I believe should happen is that judges REMEMBER this fact and do their honest best effort because of it. I don't think we deserve higher scores but an honest effort at accurate, fair judging is deserved because of our output of time, effort and cash. I don't think anyone can disagree with that.

 

[Divemaster]

I for one, would welcome back the response cards that we as judges used to be able to fill out as an explanation of why we scored something as we did.

As a cook, I think this would give us (cooks) a chance to see what was going through the judges head....

 

[Scottie]

Those cards were a waste of time. We got them for 9's and most of the comments were "yummy", "perfectly cooked"... Not sure what that tells you. Then we would also get one for a 4 or lower... Which means spit it out...

So as a cook, they were meaningless.

 

[Divemaster]

I'm just saying that some kind of feed back would be helpful rather than taking a shot in the dark.

 

[Scottie]

I agree. I'm not saying they were completely worthless. I just think they had to be tweeked for them to be useful for the cooks. I cooked about 10 contests last year that had them. I received about 4 comments. Yummy tells me nothing... As I really hope it's "yummy" or else I shouldn't be competing. But it doesn't really tell me anything as a cook though...

 

[Slamdunkpro]

And the sauce being too sweet causing you to score lower is really annoying to me!

OK I just have to mention this thing about being considerate of the time, effort and cash teams spend on this stuff in your scoring. Personally, I've made a similar comment before BUT I've never advocated cooks getting higher scores BECAUSE of it. What I believe should happen is that judges REMEMBER this fact and do their honest best effort because of it. I don't think we deserve higher scores but an honest effort at accurate, fair judging is deserved because of our output of time, effort and cash. I don't think anyone can disagree with that.

Two things:

Sweet/hot/tangy sauce is a neutral to me depending on how it balances on the product however if all I taste is sweet to the exclusion of all else where it becomes the dominate flavor then yes you are going to lose points. It's BBQ, not a Snickers bar.

As far as appreciation of effort, yes, it is the judge's obligation to take judging and evaluating seriously, as seriously as the cooks take the BBQ process if not more so. If you (a judge) are there for the grazing table or to stuff your cooler and "it all kinda tastes the same" then no, you should not be judging.