Corned Beef Cure help........

[mowin]

Question then. Does the weight/amount of meat in that gallon of water matter? Or, is that 1 tsp. enough to cure anything brining in that gallon whether it be 3lbs of brisket or 6?

Also, say you are wet brining 4lbs of brisket. There is no difference if you used 1 tsp. in 1 gallon of water or 1.5 teaspoons in 1.5 gallons of water to brine the same piece of meat, correct? As long as you keep that ratio to 1tsp/gallon you should be ok? Or, should you still only use the 1tsp in the 1.5 gallons because thats what 4lbs of meat calls for.

I guess my overall question is this: In a wet brine, do we go by weight of the meat to decide how much pink salt to use or ratio in the solution?

As long as the meat is covered, it doesn't matter if it 3 or 6 #. Just make sure the length of time the meat is taking a bath for is adequate. When I make venison pastrami, I inject the meat with the brine/cure to aid in the curing process. I usually keep them in there for 10-14 days. The meat will equalize with the brine, so you can't over cure if you get delayed by a day or two.

If you need more water to cover several pieces of meat, add cure according. 1 tbs per gallon. Yes you could do half a tbs for half gal. A gal of water is only going to cover so much meat

 

[thirdeye]

Pedro7, don't get your teaspoons and tablespoons mixed up.

 

[Pedro7]

As long as the meat is covered, it doesn't matter if it 3 or 6 #. Just make sure the length of time the meat is taking a bath for is adequate. When I make venison pastrami, I inject the meat with the brine/cure to aid in the curing process. I usually keep them in there for 10-14 days. The meat will equalize with the brine, so you can't over cure if you get delayed by a day or two.

If you need more water to cover several pieces of meat, add cure according. 1 tbs per gallon. Yes you could do half a tbs for half gal. A gal of water is only going to cover so much meat

Got it. So the recipe I followed on amazingribs.com said 2tsp per gallon for 4lbs of meat for 5-7 days. So, I did 3tsp for the 1.5 gallons I needed to cover the ~4-5 pounds of meat for 6.5 days. Essentially, everything in the brine was 1.5x what the recipe called for because I needed 1.5 gallons to cover. So from what your recipe is, I'd be a little short on cure.

Pedro7, don't get your teaspoons and tablespoons mixed up.

Thank you! Sorry, the recipe I followed I was measuring in teaspoons, so that's what I had in my head.

 

[mowin]

Got it. So the recipe I followed on amazingribs.com said 2tsp per gallon for 4lbs of meat for 5-7 days. So, I did 3tsp for the 1.5 gallons I needed to cover the ~4-5 pounds of meat for 6.5 days. Essentially, everything in the brine was 1.5x what the recipe called for because I needed 1.5 gallons to cover. So from what your recipe is, I'd be a little short on cure.




Thank you! Sorry, the recipe I followed I was measuring in teaspoons, so that's what I had in my head.

Are you referring to the recipe in your first post? If so that was a dry cure.

 

[Pedro7]

Are you referring to the recipe in your first post? If so that was a dry cure.

The OP posted a dry cure. Mine was always wet, which why I responded to your info about the wet brine. My posts were not meant to pertain to the OP.

https://amazingribs.com/tested-recipes/beef-and-bison-recipes/home-made-corned-beef-recipe

 

[mowin]

The OP posted a dry cure. Mine was always wet, which why I responded to your info about the wet brine. My posts were not meant to pertain to the OP.

https://amazingribs.com/tested-recipes/beef-and-bison-recipes/home-made-corned-beef-recipe

Sorry, got you and the OP confused....

That recipe used 2 tsp per gal. A little less then the 1 tbsp that I posted. I believe the 1 tbsp per gal is the 200 ppm the USDA recommends.

 

[airedale]

As long as the meat is covered, it doesn't matter if it 3 or 6 #. Just make sure the length of time the meat is taking a bath for is adequate. When I make venison pastrami, I inject the meat with the brine/cure to aid in the curing process. I usually keep them in there for 10-14 days. The meat will equalize with the brine, so you can't over cure if you get delayed by a day or two.

If you need more water to cover several pieces of meat, add cure according. 1 tbs per gallon. Yes you could do half a tbs for half gal. A gal of water is only going to cover so much meat

Sorry, this does not make any sense to me. Consider the following experiment:

Start with a plan to cure 3# of meat. Find that you only have a garbage can to contain it and the brine. Put the meat in a plastic bag and fill the bag with cure until the meat is covered. Assume this takes 5 gallons (40#) of cure. At equlibrium, then the cure concentration will be reduced by 40/43 to 93% of the initial concentration.

Now you liked that meat so you buy a whole uncured ham. Say 30#. You remember that you have a big wort-boiling pot with your beer making stuff so you don't have to use the garbage can. Whew, the meat just fits and it takes only a gallon of cure to cover it. Now, when equilibrium is reached, the cure concentration will be 8/38. It will be down to 22%.

The only way to ensure that you reach an equilibrium cure at the right concentration of cure is to consider both the weight of the meat and the weight of any water used.

 

[mowin]

Sorry, this does not make any sense to me. Consider the following experiment:

Start with a plan to cure 3# of meat. Find that you only have a garbage can to contain it and the brine. Put the meat in a plastic bag and fill the bag with cure until the meat is covered. Assume this takes 5 gallons (40#) of cure. At equlibrium, then the cure concentration will be reduced by 40/43 to 93% of the initial concentration.

Now you liked that meat so you buy a whole uncured ham. Say 30#. You remember that you have a big wort-boiling pot with your beer making stuff so you don't have to use the garbage can. Whew, the meat just fits and it takes only a gallon of cure to cover it. Now, when equilibrium is reached, the cure concentration will be 8/38. It will be down to 22%.

The only way to ensure that you reach an equilibrium cure at the right concentration of cure is to consider both the weight of the meat and the weight of any water used.

Now you just being unrealistic. Who would use a garbage can full of water for 3 # of meat? A 1 gal zip lock would be more than adequate.

 

[airedale]

Now you just being unrealistic. Who would use a garbage can full of water for 3 # of meat? A 1 gal zip lock would be more than adequate.

OK. Let's do the calculation for a 1 gal. zip-loc: 3# of meat, say 3# of brine. Brine concentration at equilibrium is 3/6 or 50%. Same problem. Without adding cure based on the weight of the meat, the equilibrium solution can be substantially, possibly dangerously, reduced in concentration.

I doubt if you could get 5# of brine in a gallon bag with 3# of meat, but even then your concentration at equilibrium is 5/8 or 62%. Still quite a bit of dilution.

The extreme example of using a garbage can is actually a best case, where the weight of the brine substantially exceeds that of the meat so the dilution is fairly minimal.

 

[IamMadMan]

Airedale makes some great points, you just can't guess at the volume of water and add the meat. Many professionals use a 30% to 40% of ratio of water to 100% of the weight of the meat, 40% being the most common for pork and beef. That means for a 40% ratio, for 1 kg (1000 grams) of meat we will add 400 grams of water.

However as Airedale pointed out, your container might require more than a 40% ratio of water to cover the meat.

Then you also have to take into consideration the degree of salinity that you intend to use and calculate the cure accordingly.


EDIT:
Although I don't use this calculator, it is much more accurate than many of the recipes others have offered up on the internet. It takes the guesswork and will render a safe product when used accordingly.

You can adjust the PPM and it will adjust according to the weight of the meat and the volume of water you intend to us.

http://www.genuineideas.com/ArticlesIndex/nitritecuringcalculator.html

It will also calculate an acceptable curing time for the size and shape of the meat used in your curing project.

.

 

[mowin]

It's simple. Mix up a gal of brine/cure. Place meat in the container. Make sure it's covered. If you only have a 30 gal trash can for 3# of meat, your not prepared. Go get the appropriate sized container.

It really is that simple.

 

[airedale]

It's simple. Mix up a gal of brine/cure. Place meat in the container. Make sure it's covered. If you only have a 30 gal trash can for 3# of meat, your not prepared. Go get the appropriate sized container.

It really is that simple.

Yup. Agree. It is that simple.

The missing piece here, though, is how to "mix up" the brine/cure. The amount of cure must be based on the total weight of the water and the meat. Still pretty simple & BTW container size does not matter as long as the amount of cure is properly calculated.

@mowin, you seem to be having trouble with the basic math here. Let me try to simplify even further:

Suppose you have a gallon (8#) of brine/cure properly mixed to, say, 200ppm. Now suppose you add a gallon of plain water to it. Result: 100ppm, right?

Meat is mostly water, so adding 8# of meat to that 8# of 200ppm brine will produce the same result: 100ppm.
​

I'm not going to continue in this thread. Hopefully the many posts, including IAmMadMan's always valuable information, are enough to make readers realize that @mowin's idea of ignoring the meat weight when calculating brine concentration is not only flat wrong but possibly dangerously wrong. Be careful out there!

 

[thirdeye]

...I'm not going to continue in this thread. Hopefully the many posts, including IAmMadMan's always valuable information, are enough to make readers realize that @mowin's idea of ignoring the meat weight when calculating brine concentration is not only flat wrong but possibly dangerously wrong. Be careful out there!

These discussions are actually very worthwhile, educating, and will most likely lead the beginner as well as the advanced charcutier down a road toward an improved, and trusted process not to mention the chance of producing a better end product. Having a dedicated forum for sausage & curing might not be practical (but it would be nice... hint hint hint) so mabe a MegaThread like we have for the UDS and PBC is an idea? Besides, using the search engine, it's possible to search "within this thread" which is something I've done in the giant UDS thread. Thoughts??

 

[mowin]

Yup. Agree. It is that simple.

The missing piece here, though, is how to "mix up" the brine/cure. The amount of cure must be based on the total weight of the water and the meat. Still pretty simple & BTW container size does not matter as long as the amount of cure is properly calculated.

@mowin, you seem to be having trouble with the basic math here. Let me try to simplify even further:

Suppose you have a gallon (8#) of brine/cure properly mixed to, say, 200ppm. Now suppose you add a gallon of plain water to it. Result: 100ppm, right?

Meat is mostly water, so adding 8# of meat to that 8# of 200ppm brine will produce the same result: 100ppm.
​

I'm not going to continue in this thread. Hopefully the many posts, including IAmMadMan's always valuable information, are enough to make readers realize that @mowin's idea of ignoring the meat weight when calculating brine concentration is not only flat wrong but possibly dangerously wrong. Be careful out there!

I'm sorry I'm not wrong ....

 

[Pedro7]

Airedale makes some great points, you just can't guess at the volume of water and add the meat. Many professionals use a 30% to 40% of ratio of water to 100% of the weight of the meat, 40% being the most common for pork and beef. That means for a 40% ratio, for 1 kg (1000 grams) of meat we will add 400 grams of water.

However as Airedale pointed out, your container might require more than a 40% ratio of water to cover the meat.

Then you also have to take into consideration the degree of salinity that you intend to use and calculate the cure accordingly.


EDIT:
Although I don't use this calculator, it is much more accurate than many of the recipes others have offered up on the internet. It takes the guesswork and will render a safe product when used accordingly.

You can adjust the PPM and it will adjust according to the weight of the meat and the volume of water you intend to us.

http://www.genuineideas.com/ArticlesIndex/nitritecuringcalculator.html

It will also calculate an acceptable curing time for the size and shape of the meat used in your curing project.

.

Great calculator! However, it has me worried a bit. Based on the recipe I just did for my corned beef (5lbs of meat, 1.5gallons of water, 3tsp of #1, 6.5 wet brine) the recommended amount of #1 was almost double what I put in to get to 200ppm. Also, the curing time was considerable short for my 1.5-2" thick brisket flat at 3-5 days. So, what I did was wet brined to 100-125ppm.

I ate it. I haven't died yet. So, is the 100-125ppm ok?

 

[IamMadMan]

Great calculator! However, it has me worried a bit. Based on the recipe I just did for my corned beef (5lbs of meat, 1.5gallons of water, 3tsp of #1, 6.5 wet brine) the recommended amount of #1 was almost double what I put in to get to 200ppm. Also, the curing time was considerable shortly for my 1.5-2" thick brisket flat at 3-5 days. So, what I did was wet brined to 100-125ppm.

I ate it. I haven't died yet. So, is the 100-125ppm ok?

Pedro7,

The goal isn't to reach 200 PPM, 200 PPM is just simply the maximum allowable nitrite. I think the reason 200 PPM was referenced here, was just to show that the other recipe in question was over the maximum limit. I cure most things at about 155 PPM and the beef bacon I make is only 120 PPM. Even cured poultry I keep at 120 PPM....

As long as it was cured, I would say it was fine. You may have used a lower PPM, but you also brined for a longer period of time. Being you did not weigh the meat and weigh the water to calculate the amount of cure, the PPM can only be an estimation. In my opinion it's better to be under the Maximum 200 PPM rather than than over. Obviously you had an ample amount of cure because it was fully cured all the way through. Your estimation of 120 PPM comes out very close to what you had.

We all know that 120 PPM is enough to cure meat, but going down to 100 PPM will be just enough for any meaningful curing action. However the lower 100 PPM could result with inconsistency and you may wind up with uneven curing. Obviously the later was not the case with you..... Congratulations on a great successful curing experience, nothing compares to enjoying the fruits of your labors.

We have discussed why proper weights are more important than estimated measures. Thirdeye even pointed out a link, that measuring spoons can be far from even semi-accurate ballpark measures.

The other point of discussion was, that finding a reliable recipe on the Internet becomes increasingly harder every day. There is a big difference between writing about curing and actually testing the recipe and doing it the proper way. There are many questionable recipes on the internet, just because they are out there, doesn't imply accuracy or safety of the resulting product(s).

From many of these "bad" recipes we can clearly see that the author/poster has never properly calculated the ingredients let alone test the final product. Having a collection of recipes on a website does not make a person proficient in a new skill.

You have to know the How and Why of curing; you have to know the rules that govern the process. The curing agent is simply just a tool, albeit a very important one. Once you understand why and how to properly calculate the ingredients, the rest will fall into place.

Our goal here is only to help educate those who wish to learn; We want you have fun and help to give you a positive experience while making a safe product that everyone can enjoy. We can't force anyone to do something, especially if they are unwilling to learn to do the math. Nothing beats the flavor of a great homemade product, whether it be cured, smoked, or both. No one here is the cure police, we simply want to suggest and help you to find a proven, tested recipe from a true professional in the craft of curing meats. We are only here to offer guidance and suggestions, what the readers do with our input is entirely up to that individual.

However for those who still do not want to weigh for a brine cure, again I advocate the use of Morton Tender Quick as described on the package; 1 Cup Tender Quick for 4 Cups of water. It's not my first choice for a brine cure, but it's based not only on PPM, but also averages a 4% pickup ratio of the brine into the meat.

http://www.mortonsalt.com/article/meat-curing-methods/
http://www.uncledavesenterprise.com/file/garden/storage/Morton Tender Quick.pdf

Morton recipes:
http://www.mortonsalt.com/article/meat-curing-recipes/

 

[Pedro7]

Ok, thank you! I very much appreciate your inputs Madman. I'd expect nothing less from a fellow Jersey boy...

Now, I've also been curing my own bacon a lot following Jess Pryles recipe below. For that I've been using a dry cure as the recipe states. Make the cure, put it in ziplocs, etc. What would you say is your proper ratio of #1:lbs of meat? I try to follow this recipe exactly cutting the belly into 3lb pieces. However, I may try to do a whole belly next time.

http://jesspryles.com/recipe/how-to-make-bacon/

 

[IamMadMan]

Ok, thank you! I very much appreciate your inputs Madman. I'd expect nothing less from a fellow Jersey boy...

Now, I've also been curing my own bacon a lot following Jess Pryles recipe below. For that I've been using a dry cure as the recipe states. Make the cure, put it in ziplocs, etc. What would you say is your proper ratio of #1:lbs of meat? I try to follow this recipe exactly cutting the belly into 3lb pieces. However, I may try to do a whole belly next time.

http://jesspryles.com/recipe/how-to-make-bacon/

Pedro7,

The recipe is good and it references aprox 200 PPM. While that will work just fine, I prefer to keep the bacon near 155 PPM simply because the amount of fat in the bellies. I would suggest dropping to 3/4 of a teaspoon, rather than 1 teaspoon, which would bring you somewhere near 160 PPM

Again I urge you to avoid measures and use a scale for accuracy and consistency in your final product.

While it may not be a big deal, getting exactly 3 pounds of bacon from the butcher isn't an exact cut, but rather just an approximation by the eye. Then you have to cut that into 3 equal pieces of 1 pound each and then try to evenly divide the cure into 3 equal portions hoping that everything is equally distributed. Being slightly off isn't going to cause any harm or ill effects. Small differences in the amount of salt, and the differences in the amount of the cure can cause minute differences in texture. While many may never notice, there are many of us that strive to produce the best possible product with exact consistency, time and time again.

Because you are asking questions, I would think that you also fall into that category with many of your other Brethren. Only you know what your goals are in curing your bacon.

If you want to try weights instead of measures, Harbor Freight Tools has an in expensive scale for about $19.00
https://www.harborfreight.com/digital-scale-95364.html

This would allow you to weigh each individual piece of meat you cut, then weigh out the exact amount of cure #1, salt, and sugar for each individual piece. Then you are free to measure the added spices as desired.

Weighing also gives you better control over the final product and allows you to be precise each and every time. If you think the math is too difficult, you can use this calculator that allows you to change the PPM and will give you the exact weight of each ingredient accordingly.
https://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-recipes/cure-calculator

Just remember to stay on the left side for American Weights. You can also use the spice calculator (bottom right) to convert measures to a more accurate weight to further refine your consistency of the final product.

If you want to try and do the belly as one whole piece, a nylon food safe steam table pan liner will work fine. I recommend using the food safe pan liners to avoid using the cure (specifically salt) in a reactive pan, such as aluminum. https://www.webstaurantstore.com/fu...le-nylon-pan-liner-50-box/5723418 50.html or you can buy a poly-carbonate full size pan https://www.webstaurantstore.com/cambro-14pp190-full-size-translucent-food-pan-4-deep/21414PP.html

I hope this has answered your questions....

.

 

[thirdeye]

Just an adder to the several suggestions in this thread about accurate weighing of ingredients. There are some pretty snazzy digital scales out there, and many are reasonably priced... but just like your pit thermometers the calibration needs to be verified. A 500 gram weight is often recommended and since that is 1.1 pounds this gives you one reference point, but what about confidence with dealing with the small measurements of curing salts?? The answer only costs a few pennies. Really. The latest US penny weighs 2.5 grams. Check your scale's accuracy with one penny, then with a stack of 10 pennies (25 grams) and now you have bracketed a range of range of measurements so you can be confident that 12 grams is 12 grams.

 

[Pedro7]

Thanks again, Madman. These calculators are exactly what I'm looking for. I do have a little scale that I use to weigh my meats that I got off of amazon. I'll cure it piece by piece or just do the whole belly in one of those pans.

What are the proper ratios of salt and sugar to cure that you recommend? I'm trying to get this broken down to a "per pound" recipe that I can just multiply based on the weight of the meat.