KCBS "lower level" ToY contest

[Kit R]

On the "who is the winningest team" thread that devolved into a "who do you dread seeing pull up at a comp" discussion, I said back on the 4th that it would interesting to see a list of teams ranked by average TOY points earned per competition. I also said the list should be limited to teams with at least ten TOY qualifying comps in a year so as to get a large enough sample size to minimize the effect of "outlier" performances like a DAL due to category DQ, a single awesome performance by an otherwise midpack performing team, etc. Looks like KCBS has some interest in the question as well.

LOTS of things to consider if you go down this road that have been touched on by others, but I think five comps is too low for a representative sample. If a team had a great performance early in the season, they'd have incentive to only cook a few more comps, and to select those comps with an eye toward "bottom feeding" to keep the TOY number high. You could do that with more total comps, but the more times you cook the harder it gets to maintain that high level of performance if the one good result was an anomaly.

Not saying that I agree or disagree with the concept, just my observations on the subject. Bottom line, if KCBS introduces money or, God forbid, an actual piece of hardware into this conversation, you better believe that every way to game the system will be used. Better to weed out potential workarounds as early as possible to the extent possible.

 

[kihrer]

I think a 5 contest points chase for cookers in each of the the proposed five KCBS regions would be very useful. Each region then would have their list of top top cookers. this would spread the wealth to more cookers. If desired, you could invite the top 10 or so in the regions to a national championship contest. Right now the KCBS TOY process is for a few members who can afford to travel all over the country.

I like the regional ToY and National ToY idea. Regional ToYs could be decided by sanctioned contests within the region and could be limited to a teams best "#" comps within the region (not sure what the number should be but would like to see it so that the avg team could compete - i.e. 10 or less). The major teams could then compete nationally for ToY and could also compete for regional ToY honors in any region in which they compete enough. Conceivably, a really good team might win the National ToY and maybe one or more regional ToYs.

 

[DawgPhan]

Let's say a deadline is set for delcaring. You miss it. What happens? Are you instantly put in one of the races or out completely?

if you miss the sign up deadline, you miss out. That isnt that hard.

If I declare Baby TOY, am I limited to the number of contests I can cook, or just the number that count? Can I declare Baby TOY and cook 35 contests? Is that what the guy who cooked 7 was really expecting? I'm betting I could pull 5 GC's and RGC's in 35 contests. Most cooks could when you cook that much.

I dont know if there will be a limit on the number of contests that you can cook. This isnt my proposal. Maybe you should ask candy. However I believe that making it so that you can only count contests for 1 series and making the prize for the baby TOY much less than the regular TOY would eliminate most of this type of stuff.

If I declare TOY and something happens with my job, my family, or myself, but I cooked 6-8 solid contests, am I not able to be considered part of Baby TOY? I'm assuming your answer is no.

correct. Like you said, there is some luck involved in TOY.

There's a lot of manual effort that goes into keep that TOY list today. Keeping two and having to track declarations could be challenging.

KCBS's data problems are their own.

OH!!!! Can I have two teams? A TOY team and a Baby TOY team? Afterall, TOY is not tracked by head cook, but by team! Forget all of my points above. I just found the loophole! :thumb:

You didn't, but thanks for playing. If you want to create 2 teams and cook in both the Baby and regular TOY, you could, but you couldnt cook the same contest as 2 teams with the same head cook per standard KCBS rules. And points earned wouldn't apply to both series. So you would need to decide when applying to a contest if that contest was going to be a baby or regular contest by which team name you put down.

I just dont think that there would be too many teams trying to compete in both the baby and regular TOY. You might, to prove a point, but seems silly to spend that much effort winning a t-ball trophy when you are good enough to play in the show.

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

So what people are saying is develop a regional TOY that can be won by the same 30-40 teams (out of 5000 teams that competed last year)

So one or more of these regionals could be won by teams that do 30 contests a year...and they can win the TOY also

All you have done is created another award for the 1% of the teams (40 out of 5000) that are financially able enough to compete in multiple contests...

So what have you given the other 99% of KCBS teams? Nothing.

A small cap limit on contests will let the little guys have something they can shoot for, and be recognized for.

Its a great concept to let smaller teams shoot for the stars...

 

[RangerJ]

I'd be in!

Take Sams' out of the equation and I'd still have to find 4 additional KCBS competitions to go to in some state other than Texas as we only have one here annually.

 

[Bourbon Barrel BBQ]

Let's say a deadline is set for delcaring. You miss it. What happens? Are you instantly put in one of the races or out completely?

You make "this year" and "next year" sound so easy. There's a ton of luck that goes into this in addition to the skill. Teams don't finish in the same position year to year. Many who thought they would never chase TOY points find themselves in a top 10 position and start to find a way to cook more. Many teams will tell you it is hard to repeat the same success for many reasons. I'm sure TrueBud had no idea they'd earn so many 1st place rib finishes. In October, they were top 10, but not 1st in Rib TOY. They cooked everywhere the last 3 months trying to get to Rib TOY... and did. It ain't easy, folks. Teams will jump on planes or drive halfway across the country in October-December if they are having a good run, just to finish top 10 in a category.

If I declare Baby TOY, am I limited to the number of contests I can cook, or just the number that count? Can I declare Baby TOY and cook 35 contests? Is that what the guy who cooked 7 was really expecting? I'm betting I could pull 5 GC's and RGC's in 35 contests. Most cooks could when you cook that much.

If I declare TOY and something happens with my job, my family, or myself, but I cooked 6-8 solid contests, am I not able to be considered part of Baby TOY? I'm assuming your answer is no.

There's a lot of manual effort that goes into keep that TOY list today. Keeping two and having to track declarations could be challenging.

OH!!!! Can I have two teams? A TOY team and a Baby TOY team? Afterall, TOY is not tracked by head cook, but by team! Forget all of my points above. I just found the loophole! :thumb:

You could just make 10 completed comps the cut off. You do 11 and you are now in the Big TOY pool. That way you can get hot and jump to the big TOY if you need to. Tally the best 5 scores for the 10 comps. I'd say leave prize money out for the junior TOY. It would stop bigger teams cherry picking if bragging rights and trophy are all you get.

 

[G$]

I agree with Coz. 5 contests isn't what TOY is about. KCBS should be encouraging teams to cook more contests, not less.

What about guys like me. We cook maybe 3 a year. A 5 contest toy might make me cook more.

 

[Mike - CSBBBQ]

Not positive but how many comps Tuffy cooked the year he won (2007). I'm thinking 17 confident less than 20 with 6 or 7 GCs. It was under the old scoring system but it shows you don't have to cook 30. Just have to consistently cook good food and hit the right tables. Personally think 10 is too few for a TOY unless you are addressing a particular region. IMHO

 

[Scottie]

What about guys like me. We cook maybe 3 a year. A 5 contest toy might make me cook more.

I do not see how a team that cooks 5 contests be representative of 'team of the year' status. Does that reflect the best cooks? I'd argue otherwise. Especially when there would probably be hundreds of ties. How do you determine them then? Coin flip? To determine a team of the year? This in no way is me trying to omit or slight the teams that cook 5. I only cooked 16 and finished high compared to others that cook twice as much. Am I pissed? Nope.

 

[dhuffjr]

I would be happy with a simple filter for the rankings. Let me compare myself with teams that cook as often or infrequently as I do. Not everyone is retired or has the time/resources to compete 2-3 times a month. I'm hoping to do 4-5 next year like I always do but will definitely step up my game to 3 for sure :>)

 

[G$]

I do not see how a team that cooks 5 contests be representative of 'team of the year' status. Does that reflect the best cooks? I'd argue otherwise. Especially when there would probably be hundreds of ties. How do you determine them then? Coin flip? To determine a team of the year? This in no way is me trying to omit or slight the teams that cook 5. I only cooked 16 and finished high compared to others that cook twice as much. Am I pissed? Nope.

But like you said above Scottie, if the goal is to get teams to cook more, it would. I am not sure how you can argue that ADDING a smaller Toy takes away from the other. We are talking about two right?

 

[Mike - CSBBBQ]

I do not see how a team that cooks 5 contests be representative of 'team of the year' status. Does that reflect the best cooks? I'd argue otherwise. Especially when there would probably be hundreds of ties. How do you determine them then? Coin flip? To determine a team of the year? This in no way is me trying to omit or slight the teams that cook 5. I only cooked 16 and finished high compared to others that cook twice as much. Am I pissed? Nope.

Agree with you Scottie. Was fortunate last year in my first year of retirement to travel and compete. Will not do as many this year. Last year was a blast and made a bunch of new friends :wave: Hoping to cook decent and hit good tables in the comps we do cook.

Did you get the email for Swinetastic?

 

[Alexa RnQ]

it shows you don't have to cook 30.

Heck, you just have to cook 10 -- and win them.

I would be happy with a simple filter for the rankings. Let me compare myself with teams that cook as often or infrequently as I do.

We have a winner!

 

[Kit R]

I would be happy with a simple filter for the rankings. Let me compare myself with teams that cook as often or infrequently as I do. Not everyone is retired or has the time/resources to compete 2-3 times a month. I'm hoping to do 4-5 next year like I always do but will definitely step up my game to 3 for sure :>)

That's what I was trying to get at back on the other thread. I was real happy to win one, come pretty dang close on two more and have fun in ten comps last year (plus the bonus at the end of the year). That said, it would be interesting to see how other teams that cook the same amount of comps are doing. Until and unless I DO retire (yeah good luck with that) I'm happy to leave a TOY pursuit to others who have figured out a way to make that goal happen. Well, that and do as well as I can the ten or so times I'll go out in a year.

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

What does it hurt to let the smaller teams have a contest of their own???

So you give an award to a small team that cooked 5 or less contests during the calendar year and did good...

has it hurt your prize money...no
has it hurt your team...no
has it hurt bbq...no

Answer - it hurts us larger competitors pride, thats it...the little guy gets a trophy and I don't...

Teams that compete over 10 a year are not the bulk of this organization...teams that compete less than 5 are. Why not give them their own award?

The only negative arguements on here have been from teams that cook more than 5 comps...

Please ya'll give a valid reason why this should not be done for the BACKBONE of this organization. For the 80% of teams that make up our prizepool, but rarely wins it.

Did ya'll read the 3 teams comments that cook less than 5 contests, chimed in to say that they would bump it up to 5 comps a year to compete for this...We all talk about promoting BBQ and increasing participation. When an idea that does this is put out there we shoot it down, and for what? Pride??

 

[Dan - 3eyzbbq]

Heck, you just have to cook 10 -- and win them.

Please don't get Mike fired up. I'm the one that has to cook against him every friggin week :laugh:

 

[JayAre]

Everybody gets a trophy!!

 

[Scottie]

Lets make it like kids soccer and give everyone a trophy.

And it doesn't hurt my pride or feelings. I'm not going to finish in the top 10 and I've been fortunate to do that and cooked 25 contests. But I can shoot for the top 25 though and not have to cook 25 contests.

 

[Smokin' Gnome BBQ]

Please don't get Mike fired up. I'm the one that has to cook against him every friggin week :laugh:

now you know how I feel when I see your rig pull in!ray:

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

Lets make it like kids soccer and give everyone a trophy.

And it doesn't hurt my pride or feelings. I'm not going to finish in the top 10 and I've been fortunate to do that and cooked 25 contests. But I can shoot for the top 25 though and not have to cook 25 contests.

We cook more than 5 too, so I'm not in the running.
and I know I'm not going to be in the TOY running...

But its not kids soccer, 1 trophy for roughly 3500 teams to compete for...

If this program could get half of the below 5 contest teams to compete in 1-2 more contests that is a win for the sport.

And it costs us $150 for a trophy...

Win win in my book.