What would your reaction be?

Brewmaster

Brewmaster

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I was at a contest recently and the team next to me was disqualified on their pork entry. Later after the contest I talked to the team members about the reason they were disqualified. They proceeded to tell me it was for using kale and endives. So I asked them if they used kale and endives on their chicken and rib entry. They said they did, and not only at this contest. They used kale and endives on all four categories at a previous contest. At that point I was getting frustrated because his previous contest was the same contest I competed in. So I looked up the results and they placed in the top ten in one category. Not that it made a huge difference in the outcome of the contest but the fact that this got past six table captains and thirty-six judges before getting caught is what disturbed me. But the worst part of the whole situation was that he told me he was a CBJ himself. Now I could see a situation where the rules were kind of vague or a little gray, but this rule is spelled out in black and white. At what point do they take away someone’s CBJ status? What other rules are being broken and missed? I want to say I am very disappointed in a system that I spend a lot of time and money involved in.
Nate
CBJ# 21746
 
Nate, I agree that there is some issue with the CBJ certification. The fact that they hold certification classes right before a competition just for that competition so they can say it's completely filled by CBJs kinda missrepresents the judging. Doesn't mean they are qualified CBJs.

We got burned by a questionable 'cbj' judgement in Washington. Reps said they tried to talk with him about it but he wouldn't budge. To me, KCBS ought to be tracking reps history and ability if they are going to put their name behind the person. They also ought to be able to take action on someone if they can see the person really shouldn't be judging, whether it be removing their status or asking them to re-attend training.
 
I have been told that any CBJ can attend any judging class for free. My thought is that some kind of continued education should be mandatory to keep your CBJ status. If is means you attend a class every year to find out the rule changes or some kind of online class. There seems to be a disconnect somewhere. I mean really....36 judges and 6 table captains can't recognize kale and endives?
 
Have to agree with this one. I can understand (kind of) a new judge missing this, but not a full table full AND a table captain!
 
This is pretty surprising, considering they spend more time in a CBJ class teaching them how to identify illegal garnish than they do teaching how to properly judge the meat.
 
Smokedelic said:
This is pretty surprising, considering they spend more time in a CBJ class teaching them how to identify illegal garnish than they do teaching how to properly judge the meat.
Click to expand...

I just went through Mike Lake's CBJ class this past weekend, and probably 90% of the class time was spent on how to judge the meat. There was a small portion devoted to illegal garnish, but examples of what each illegal garnish looked like was not provided.
 
KCBS should take some lessons from the FBA, not sure if I am correct on this but I do believe the FBA also tracks judges as well

[SIZE=+2]FBA Judge Requirements[/SIZE]

  1. Maintain an active FBA Membership.
  2. Judge a minimum of one FBA sanctioned contest every 12 months. (note: failure to achieve this requirement means you will have to attend an FBA Judge's Training Seminar prior to judging again.)
  3. Be present for the Judges Briefing at any contest your are confirmed to judge. Failure to be present means that you will not judge that contest. Check-in for judges starts at 9am on the day of the contest and ends at 9:30am. The Judges Briefing begins at 9:30am, followed by the Table Captains Briefing.
  4. If you fail to show for three contests that you are confirmed to judge without notifying either the Organizer or one of the Reps, you will be removed from the list of judges for future contests.
  5. Judge all four categories at any contest you are seated at for judging.
  6. During the contest, you are not allowed to visit with the cook teams. Doing so will cause you to be removed from the judging that day.
  7. After the contest, you may visit with the cook teams, however you may not discuss any part of the judging including your scores. Doing so will cause you to be removed from the list of judges for future contests.
 
Illegal Garnish

:confused: Hmmmmmm..............Isn't it about the meat??:confused: As if it's not hard enough getting the stuff in the box !:crazy:
 
nthole said:
Nate, I agree that there is some issue with the CBJ certification. The fact that they hold certification classes right before a competition just for that competition so they can say it's completely filled by CBJs kinda missrepresents the judging. Doesn't mean they are qualified CBJs.

We got burned by a questionable 'cbj' judgement in Washington. Reps said they tried to talk with him about it but he wouldn't budge. To me, KCBS ought to be tracking reps history and ability if they are going to put their name behind the person. They also ought to be able to take action on someone if they can see the person really shouldn't be judging, whether it be removing their status or asking them to re-attend training.
Click to expand...

on top of what proportion of the judges are CBJs, what if KCBS reported what the average number of events the judges have judged? the further the average is from 1, the more confidence that could be placed in the judges for that event. this might make it a little more clear, as 100% CBJ doesn't seem to mean all that much. just a thought :idea:
 
Seems like a stupid risk for that team to continue using it and jeopardizing getting DQ'd in each category. Lot of money out the door for DQ.
 
Buster Dog BBQ said:
Seems like a stupid risk for that team to continue using it and jeopardizing getting DQ'd in each category. Lot of money out the door for DQ.
Click to expand...

You are correct, but he (CBJ Judge) did not realize it was illegal until he got his fist DQ after 6 prior turn-ins. Needless to say, his brisket turn-in did not have any kale in it.
 
Maybe it's just that the judges are really doing their job and that is judging the meat and not the garnish. I hear judges all the time saying they really don't notice the garnish......maybe it's true? So it got past all those judges till they came across that one judge that pays attention to the garnish. Just sayin'
 
NRA4Life said:
I just went through Mike Lake's CBJ class this past weekend, and probably 90% of the class time was spent on how to judge the meat. There was a small portion devoted to illegal garnish, but examples of what each illegal garnish looked like was not provided.
Click to expand...
I took my cbj class from Mike too, several years ago, and there were no examples of illegal garnish except in one turn in box they slipped in a small piece of red tipped parsley?
 
BBQ_Mayor said:
Maybe it's just that the judges are really doing their job and that is judging the meat and not the garnish. I hear judges all the time saying they really don't notice the garnish......maybe it's true? So it got past all those judges till they came across that one judge that pays attention to the garnish. Just sayin'
Click to expand...

I didn't think of it that way, and I respect your point of view. But you still have 6 table captains not judging the box that should be looking for marking and illegal garnish among other things. Maybe I'm wrong but I don' think the table captains are there to be one of Barker's Beauties.
 
I'm not trying to say what he did wasn't wrong but from what I read in rule #12 he should have just received a 1 for appearance with no other penalties.
 
The proper way to judge a box is to first judge the box completely on appearance assuming it to be a legal entry, write down the score, then if they believe it to be an illegal entry, they bring it to the attention of the table captain, then the table captain takes it to the rep and the rep makes the determination on legality.
The problem is, when judges look for illegal boxes and they see something they think might be illegal, they tend to score down. If they are wrong, then the cook can suffer for a judge's mistake.
Now.. as to why a CBJ was using an illegal garnish when the rules are very specific on what you can and cannot use is completely beyond me.
It's a simple thing..just dont do it.
 
Ouch. I'd be ticked off too. Obviously a two-fold problem. First, judges & training
and execution. It seems that KCBS doesn't consistently do a thorough job of training
judges (based upon readings, etc). This needs to be addressed. Whether it's
more train-the-trainer sessions, requiring judging multiple events after training before
they become CBJ's (ala. MBN), tracking CBJ's scorings, whatever. Something (probably
a number of things) needs to be done to address this. And then, the second part of the problem is the garnish itself, but that's a long dead horse...

Pondering: What's the point of having rules if they're not enforced, consistently?
 
Lion Bout The Q said:
I took my cbj class from Mike too, several years ago, and there were no examples of illegal garnish except in one turn in box they slipped in a small piece of red tipped parsley?
Click to expand...


I've worked the back of the house for a few of these CBJ classes with Mike and Theresa. they do a red tipped lettuce for the class. I think it would be nearly impossible to do a box for each illegal greens that we could use. Now if they held up a piece of kale or red tipped might be something that they could add to the class. I'll give that one to Mike and probably duck and run after suggesting it to him...
 
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