TOY Change for 2010

[Alexa RnQ]

Too late Andy, I already pecked at the numbers! :mrgreen:
Total points isn't the full story either. Those who compete across different regions see that some areas typically have very high-scoring contests, while some areas typically have contest scores that are much lower.

I'd love to know each teams average for the entire year to see how we stack up in comparison.

If they need to divide by the comps they competed in, shouldn't they get to include all the points they earned?

Here you go:

17. THREE EYZ BBQ 3137 over 13 contests = 241.3077
3. I SMELL SMOKE 4907 over 21 contests = 233.6666
1. PELLET ENVY 6622 over 29 contests = 228.3448
18. GREAT GRILLS O FIRE 3141 over 14 contests = 224.3571
16. RHYTHM N QUE 4334 over 20 contests = 216.7
20. COOL SMOKE 3205 over 15 contests = 213.6666
12. PORK PULLIN PLOWBOYS 4039 over 19 contests = 212.5789
13. PARROTHEAD SMOKERS 4033 over 19 contests = 212.2632
4. MUNCHIN HOGS AT THE HILTON 6254 over 30 contests = 208.4666
7. BUTCHER BBQ 5168 over 25 contests = 206.72
6. FOUR LEGS UP BBQ 6148 over 30 contests = 204.9333
2. IOWAS SMOKEY DS BBQ 5122 over 25 contests = 204.88
15. LEARN2Q.COM 4011 over 20 contests = 200.55
11. LOTTA BULL BBQ 5357 over 27 contests = 198.4074
5. SMOKE ON WHEELS 4128 over 21 contests = 196.5714
14. JP CUSTOM SMOKE 5011 over 26 contests = 192.7308
8. QUAU 7106 over 37 contests = 192.0541
9. LITTLE PIG TOWN BBQ 4970 over 26 contests = 191.1538
19. SMOKY MOUNTAIN SMOKERS 5141 over 28 contests = 183.6071
10. FLORIDA SKIN AND BONES 5161 over 30 contests = 172.0333


Clearly, I should like this system best! :mrgreen:

 

[Plowboy]

Any system that puts me above Smoke on Wheels is a good system.

 

[HoDeDo]

Any system that puts me above Smoke on Wheels is a good system.

Yea well.... you do need all the help you can get:twisted:

 

[KC_Bobby]

Here you go:

17. THREE EYZ BBQ 3137 over 13 contests = 241.3077
3. I SMELL SMOKE 4907 over 21 contests = 233.6666
1. PELLET ENVY 6622 over 29 contests = 228.3448
18. GREAT GRILLS O FIRE 3141 over 14 contests = 224.3571
16. RHYTHM N QUE 4334 over 20 contests = 216.7
20. COOL SMOKE 3205 over 15 contests = 213.6666
12. PORK PULLIN PLOWBOYS 4039 over 19 contests = 212.5789
13. PARROTHEAD SMOKERS 4033 over 19 contests = 212.2632
4. MUNCHIN HOGS AT THE HILTON 6254 over 30 contests = 208.4666
7. BUTCHER BBQ 5168 over 25 contests = 206.72
6. FOUR LEGS UP BBQ 6148 over 30 contests = 204.9333
2. IOWAS SMOKEY DS BBQ 5122 over 25 contests = 204.88
15. LEARN2Q.COM 4011 over 20 contests = 200.55
11. LOTTA BULL BBQ 5357 over 27 contests = 198.4074
5. SMOKE ON WHEELS 4128 over 21 contests = 196.5714
14. JP CUSTOM SMOKE 5011 over 26 contests = 192.7308
8. QUAU 7106 over 37 contests = 192.0541
9. LITTLE PIG TOWN BBQ 4970 over 26 contests = 191.1538
19. SMOKY MOUNTAIN SMOKERS 5141 over 28 contests = 183.6071
10. FLORIDA SKIN AND BONES 5161 over 30 contests = 172.0333


Clearly, I should like this system best! :mrgreen:

Awesome! Anyone care to put a list together for all the Brethren teams to see how we all stack against each other?

Can I ask how you determined each teams overall points? Did you go to Paul's site to write down each teams results and then manually figure it out?

 

[Pickin' Porkers]

Running the numbers as I proposed for OVERALL T.O.Y creates drastic changes. However, this is NOT an attempt to downplay the successes of the current T.O.Y leaders. They did a GREAT job and should be proud.

Wish I could post the table on here and make it legible but the results would be as follows:

1. I Smell Smoke 137.57 Average Overall T.O.Y. points per contest
2. Smoke on Wheels 133.76
3. Iowa's Smoky D's 126.57
4. Butchers BBQ 110.64
5. Little Pig Town 104.15
6. Pellet Envy 97.53
7. Munchin' Hogs 94.03
8. Four Legs Up 93.60
9. Florida Skin & Bones 89.67
10. Quau 73.54

The advantage of using averages is that consistency is rewarded and teams doing large numbers of contests do not gain an advantage.

The above was calculated by dividing the Top Ten T.O.Y points by the number of contests cooked. That is ISS cooked 21 contests and earned 2889 TOY points. 2889 divided by 21 = 137.57142

 

[KC_Bobby]

Running the numbers as I proposed for OVERALL T.O.Y creates drastic changes. However, this is NOT an attempt to downplay the successes of the current T.O.Y leaders. They did a GREAT job and should be proud.

Wish I could post the table on here and make it legible but the results would be as follows:

1. I Smell Smoke 137.57 Average Overall T.O.Y. points per contest
2. Smoke on Wheels 133.76
3. Iowa's Smoky D's 126.57
4. Butchers BBQ 110.64
5. Little Pig Town 104.15
6. Pellet Envy 97.53
7. Munchin' Hogs 94.03
8. Four Legs Up 93.60
9. Florida Skin & Bones 89.67
10. Quau 73.54

The advantage of using averages is that consistency is rewarded and teams doing large numbers of contests do not gain an advantage.

The above was calculated by dividing the Top Ten T.O.Y points by the number of contests cooked. That is ISS cooked 21 contests and earned 2889 TOY points. 2889 divided by 21 = 137.57142

The 2889 for ISS only includes his points for his top 10 comps. So this formula takes their top 10 finishes and divides by total comps cooked. That would say something for consistency, but would it get teams to stop competing near the end of the year if they liked their spot?

Keep in mind, these are just random thoughts. I don't really have a personal opinion on this - just believe any system change should be looked at from all sides.

 

[drbbq]

But wouldn't this system encourage the leading teams to stay home instead of risking a bad day that would bring their average down? I'm against that. IMO being the best means getting out there and cooking.

The biggest problem with the current T.O.Y. point system is that teams doing a large number of contests each year still have a distinct advantage over teams doing fewer contests. This advantage is the ability to have more chances to improve their top 10 scores. I understand that the top 10 scores were only considered starting this year but it did not go far enough. Since I am more familiar with the Pork category I will refer to only the standings there. However, the same logic can be applied to other categories or overall.

For example, in the Pork category, Pellet Envy cooked 30 contests this year and Brew N Bar B Que cooked only 12 with the winner, Little Pig Town cooking 26. Yet, Brew N Brew finished 8th, Pellet Envy 9th and Little Pig Town 1st. Cooking only 12 contests in one year and placing as high as 8th with the number of top 10 finishes they had is an awesome feat! I’d love to know how they would have done with 30 contests. This type of performance cannot go unnoticed and yet it does.

Limiting 50 bonus points does nothing to improve the fairness of these contests as has already been mathematically proven. In fact, I think it is even more unfair because teams are not compensated for excellent performance when beating 99 other teams. Limiting any bonus points is like awarding trophies to all kids on a baseball team regardless if they placed first or last. OR, like limiting the score differential in a basketball game.

The ONLY way to be fair to all teams is to continue awarding points as they are currently awarded and THEN calculating the average points with their best top ten contests. The T.O.Y finish would be drastically different in Pork.

Since this is lengthy enough, I will end it here. I will be glad to send a simple Excel Spreadsheet to interested parties showing how the T.O.Y standings would be different but PLEASE make the T.O.Y calculations more fair!

 

[drbbq]

It's the same 10 teams, just shuffled a little. Hardly worth giving up the run to the finish that we had this year.

Running the numbers as I proposed for OVERALL T.O.Y creates drastic changes. However, this is NOT an attempt to downplay the successes of the current T.O.Y leaders. They did a GREAT job and should be proud.

Wish I could post the table on here and make it legible but the results would be as follows:

1. I Smell Smoke 137.57 Average Overall T.O.Y. points per contest
2. Smoke on Wheels 133.76
3. Iowa's Smoky D's 126.57
4. Butchers BBQ 110.64
5. Little Pig Town 104.15
6. Pellet Envy 97.53
7. Munchin' Hogs 94.03
8. Four Legs Up 93.60
9. Florida Skin & Bones 89.67
10. Quau 73.54

The advantage of using averages is that consistency is rewarded and teams doing large numbers of contests do not gain an advantage.

The above was calculated by dividing the Top Ten T.O.Y points by the number of contests cooked. That is ISS cooked 21 contests and earned 2889 TOY points. 2889 divided by 21 = 137.57142

 

[monty3777]

But wouldn't this system encourage the leading teams to stay home instead of risking a bad day that would bring their average down? I'm against that. IMO being the best means getting out there and cooking.

I kinda agree. What seperates teams that cook 30 contests from a team that cooks 6 is commitment - which is worth a lot. Not saying that a system should reward mediocre teams for competing every week - but I don't think the current system does that. Seems to me it weeds the lesser teams out, at least it does from the top positions.

Perhaps that is what seperates the pros from the amateurs. No contest that I have entered makes such a designation - so I can compete along side the pros. But what Makes Johnny Trigg a pro and me an amateur is not the results of the contest in Waterloo, Ia. Rather, its the fact that he is much more committed to the process than I am - and he wins consistantly over the long haul.

 

[Jacked UP BBQ]

I like the total points divided by the number of contests. There would need to be a minimum number of comps. This would show the most consistant cooking team. Anybody that has basic knowledge can cook 40 comps a year and have 10 good ones and end up in the top 25 with the current system. The top teams this year deserved it, but there would be a lot different outcomes if they through every comp you did into this. It would show who had their A-game on every comp.

 

[KC_Bobby]

Hey, with that formula, Boondoggle's 157.00 average is looking sweet!
We earned 1570 points in 9 comps for a 174.44 avg, but we'd need 10 comps. Thus taking a 0 for the 10th and lowering our average to 157.00.

Me typing that made me just realize a team cooking only 10 comps would have an advantage over a team cooking over 10 as they wouldn't lower their average. The more comps a team would do, the more their score would go down simply cause they are dividing a similar number by a larger number.

for instance, say a team got 3rd place with 50 team in each they did, that's 2500 points for the season. At 10 comps, thats a 250 point average, 11 comps that's a 227, 12 comps - 208.33, 18 comps 138.88. It's penalizing even for doing well.

 

[Jacked UP BBQ]

where do you get your numbers from?
The year end numbers?

 

[KC_Bobby]

me?

http://www.kcbs.us/rankings.php

Here’s how it works:
Every team at a contest will receive points, even the last place team. Additionally, every team participating in a contest will be awarded bonus points based on the number of teams that compete at an event, up to a maximum of 100. There are no double and triple points, only the bonus points based on the number teams competing at each event. While teams will still be rewarded for doing well in large contests, this system helps to bridge the gap between the smaller and larger events, rewarding teams for their consistency on the competition circuit regardless of event size.
Finally, after all the event number crunching is performed, teams are then ranked by adding up their best point totals from 10 events. This will be done in each category, as well as the overall category.
The following is a breakdown of the points awarded to each team at each event based on their placement:
1st---250
2nd---225
3rd---200
4th---175
5th---150
6th---140
7th---130
8th---120
9th---110
10th--100
11th--95
12th--90
13th--85
14th--80
15th--75
16th--70
17th--65
18th--60
19th--50
20th--45
21st--40
22nd--35
23rd--30
24th and down---25
So, using this point system, and the number of teams at any particular event, a team’s score can be calculated based on its performance. For example, the third place overall finisher at a 47-team event would get 200 placement points and 47 bonus points for the number of teams at the event for a total of 247 points. Likewise, the last place team at the same event would receive 72 total points (25 + 47).

 

[ique]

for instance, say a team got 3rd place with 50 team in each they did, that's 2500 points for the season. At 10 comps, thats a 250 point average, 11 comps that's a 227, 12 comps - 208.33, 18 comps 138.88. It's penalizing even for doing well.

Yes, the only way the averaging works is if you divide ALL points by ALL contests cooked. I think "winning %" should be an element of the Team of the Year. Winning 8 contests of 12 cooked is a lot more impressive than 8 contests of 30 cooked and should be rewarded.

 

[Scottie]

But wouldn't this system encourage the leading teams to stay home instead of risking a bad day that would bring their average down? I'm against that. IMO being the best means getting out there and cooking.

I'm with you Ray. Do we really want a team of the year that only cooks 5 contests? I am also against having Divisions in the KCBS. If you want individual accolades, have them at the contest you cook at. Don't expect national recognition.

 

[ique]

I'm with you Ray. Do we really want a team of the year that only cooks 5 contests? I am also against having Divisions in the KCBS. If you want individual accolades, have them at the contest you cook at. Don't expect national recognition.

I agree with no Divisions. And after not liking the idea originally have come around on expanding from 5 to 10. I would still like to see teams get bonus points for having a high winning %.

 

[Jacked UP BBQ]

Yes, the only way the averaging works is if you divide ALL points by ALL contests cooked. I think "winning %" should be an element of the Team of the Year. Winning 8 contests of 12 cooked is a lot more impressive than 8 contests of 30 cooked and should be rewarded.

I am with you 100% on this.

 

[KC_Bobby]

Scottie,
I think it would be fun to have a Rookie Team of the Year, but that would open an entire new can of worms. Define rookie and what if they cooked on a different team previously. Thus, trash that idea too.

 

[ique]

Scottie,
I think it would be fun to have a Rookie Team of the Year, but that would open an entire new can of worms. Define rookie and what if they cooked on a different team previously. Thus, trash that idea too.

We have it in NEBS and I guess there is a bit of an honor system about it. Does a non-rookie really want to win rookie team of the year?

 

[Scottie]

Remember... If money is involved, the scum starts to come out... That is my main reason for not having separatate divisions or recognize "rookies"...

then again. I don't think a guy that comes over from playing baseball in Japan for 15 years, should be eligible for winning rookie of the year either... In baseball of course...