proposed foreign object rule

[ModelMaker]

Copy of the email I sent to the KCBS BOD at bod@kcbs.us

I believe the Rules Committee is once again trying to fix something that is not broken!
The rule as it is currently written is a deterrent penalty for a cook that is not being a professional in his cooking and plating techniques. You leave a object in your turn in box you get 1’s from all judges, simple rule with clear cut circumstances.
With your new wording, if you escape discovery during appearance scoring and are found out later by a judge to have left a foreign object during the eating scoring only one judge gives 1’s and it will become the tossed low score.
Now if his entry is in the 7, 8, 9 range there is absolutely no punishment for this lackadaisical, don’t pay attention cook team!
I hate to raise the specter, but this sounds very much like a rule change by cook teams for cook teams…..
Ed

 

[gettinbasted]

Oh Good God Ed. I got disqualified for a foreign object that a judge found on my burnt end after it was on his judging mat. It was a big piece of cellophane about 6 inches long and 1/4 wide. This was apparently somehow missed when this judge pulled the end out of my box.

The cellophane was clearly from a lettuce wrap box. The rep even told me to “watch out when making lettuce wraps” when he disqualified me after awards (yes, you read that right...). Problem is, I use parsley.

I have theories how something I never use in my trailer ended up on my burnt end, none of which involves me being “lackadaisical”. I had two firsts and a 4th other than that DQ that day. I needed a 162 in brisket to win. This is not an isolated incident.

A foreign object found out of the box should not be a contest ender when lackadaisical judging is just as likely to be the cause.

 

[Roast Beast]

You felt proud enough of that email to post it here? :thumb:

 

[Pappy Q]

“Lackadaisical, don’t pay attention cook team”, really..... That’s a very disappointing comment coming from someone who presents themselves as a quality judge.

 

[ModelMaker]

Oh Good God Ed. I got disqualified for a foreign object that a judge found on my burnt end after it was on his judging mat. It was a big piece of cellophane about 6 inches long and 1/4 wide. This was apparently somehow missed when this judge pulled the end out of my box.

The cellophane was clearly from a lettuce wrap box. The rep even told me to “watch out when making lettuce wraps” when he disqualified me after awards (yes, you read that right...). Problem is, I use parsley.

I have theories how something I never use in my trailer ended up on my burnt end, none of which involves me being “lackadaisical”. I had two firsts and a 4th other than that DQ that day. I needed a 162 in brisket to win. This is not an isolated incident.

A foreign object found out of the box should not be a contest ender when lackadaisical judging is just as likely to be the cause.

Sounds to me like you had a bigger issue involving the Rep. I believe most cooks take a picture of their turn-ins, if you had parsley in a picture might have proven your point. The DQ sounds like it might have been a box mix-up. Did you demand to see your numbered box to see if there was a scrap of parsley in it?
Still in that entry box there was a foreign object and that box was DQ'd and rightfully so.
Anyhow the rule was not the problem.

 

[Fat Freddy]

Oh Good God Ed. I got disqualified for a foreign object that a judge found on my burnt end after it was on his judging mat. It was a big piece of cellophane about 6 inches long and 1/4 wide. This was apparently somehow missed when this judge pulled the end out of my box.

The cellophane was clearly from a lettuce wrap box. The rep even told me to “watch out when making lettuce wraps” when he disqualified me after awards (yes, you read that right...). Problem is, I use parsley.

I have theories how something I never use in my trailer ended up on my burnt end, none of which involves me being “lackadaisical”. I had two firsts and a 4th other than that DQ that day. I needed a 162 in brisket to win. This is not an isolated incident.

A foreign object found out of the box should not be a contest ender when lackadaisical judging is just as likely to be the cause.

I remember this incident well.

 

[ModelMaker]

“Lackadaisical, don’t pay attention cook team”, really..... That’s a very disappointing comment coming from someone who presents themselves as a quality judge.

A cooks job in box building is to follow the rules, if you leave a foreign object in the box please insert your own descriptor of the action.

I do try to be a quality judge, I try to point out bad judging attitudes hoping it will catch on to a judge or two. I help to promote competition BBQ where I can and when I can because I believe in it.
But I also keep an eye out for stupid rule changes that only will unfairly benefit the cook and was designed to do so by a group that is supposed to be looking after the welfare of the organization.
If KCBS wants to eliminate the penalty for leaving a foreign object in the entry box then remove the rule. Don't leave a cleverly worded rule that has no meaning anymore.
Ed

 

[ModelMaker]

You felt proud enough of that email to post it here? :thumb:

Yeah, I guess I am, I saw something that to me was wrong and instead of just shrugging my shoulders and saying, oh well, I made my feelings known to the KCBS BOD.
I posted it here so all would know about it and if it made them mad, follow suit.


I am not surprised all the anti-sentiment is coming from the cook camp. Why would you not want the extra help, with a useless rule always in your favor.
You cooks should be upset that somebody not paying attention will be getting a free ride while you do your best to follow the rules.
Ed

 

[Roast Beast]

Yeah, I guess I am, I saw something that to me was wrong and instead of just shrugging my shoulders and saying, oh well, I made my feelings known to the KCBS BOD.
I posted it here so all would know about it and if it made them mad, follow suit.


I am not surprised all the anti-sentiment is coming from the cook camp. Why would you not want the extra help, with a useless rule always in your favor.
You cooks should be upset that somebody not paying attention will be getting a free ride while you do your best to follow the rules.
Ed

I don't really have a strong opinion about the rule change. But your email seemed hasty, not very well thought out, and contains at least one mathematical fallacy. Just figured you'd have spent more time and effort on something you clearly intended to splatter across the internet. :thumb:

 

[Fat Freddy]

Ed, I have typed out responses then deleted them many times trying to think of right thing to say. I was next to Brad at this contest so while not directly impacted I feel i am in the know about it.

This particular thing caused them from being GC and instead DAL. That wasnt right in my opinion, what exactly did they do wrong? Yes someone did something wrong but not Getting Basted yet they were the ones punished.

If this "potential" rule could have changed that, then why not. Yes they are a big time team and he for sure has had tons of success since then. But look at the travel time and money invested. The rules were the rules and right wrong or indifferent thats what we play under. But what if this rule change could right other wrongs in the future. Should it not at least be discussed? This is not a case of "if it aint broke dont fix it" It obviously was an issue at least once and hopefully for other teams only the one time but should NOT happen again

 

[ModelMaker]

I don't really have a strong opinion about the rule change. But your email seemed hasty, not very well thought out, and contains at least one mathematical fallacy. Just figured you'd have spent more time and effort on something you clearly intended to splatter across the internet. :thumb:

I move that for the KCBS Rules in 2020, the following change be made for foreign object(s) found in an entry box. If a foreign object is discovered during appearance judging, a 1 is given by all judges for appearance, taste and tenderness. If foreign object is discovered by judge(s) during eating, the rep will instruct judge(s) to score the entry 1 for appearance, taste and tenderness. Other CBJs score as usual"

Care to point out my "mathematical fallacy"?
If caught during appearance scoring it's a total DQ, if found during T&T scoring it's a free walk as that score is tossed, just like it never happened.

My post was meant to inform members of the BBQ community about a matter that I thought was worth noting.
Read it, don't read it. Do something or not. I put it out there for information because unless you keep up with BOD meeting notes or receive the Rules Committee notices very few will have known about it.

 

[Funtimebbq]

The rule is clearly stated and all teams know the consequences of those actions. I recall the Slap Yo Daddy team losing a contest in 2011 because of a foreign object and costing them a chance at a 7th GC. You move on and live with it.
Travel time and money wasted should never be taken into consideration when establishing rules. Those are completely controllable by each team and each team knows their limits.

 

[rorkin]

I experienced a situation 2 weeks ago that is a case in point.
I was judge number 6 on brisket. I took my 6th slice and put it on the plate.
As luck would have it, when I picked up the piece to judge it I discovered a minute piece of foil on the back side which had been concealed . Had I taken the piece and put it down with the other side facing up it would have been immediately discovered.
The boxes by then having been removed, it was not ruled any sort of disqualification.
We can debate whether such a minute infraction should disqualify but that is not the question at hand as I read it..
It is a time of discovery issue.. For the life of me I dont understand why the timing of the discovery somehow alters the way it is treated..

 

[egorham]

I agree with this rule change because it only covers the portion of the judging after the food has left the box. The teams don't have any control over what happens to the meat after it leaves the box. To me this rule addresses only situations where there is uncertainty of where the foreign object came from.

Look at Brad's example, it is impossible for cellophane from lettuce disks to be in his box because he does not use them. To me it is not unreasonable to think that a small piece of cellophane or white paper towel could fall from the bottom of one teams box on to another teams portion of judges mat without getting noticed until the judge takes a bite. A team should not be DQed unless if the judge, table captain or rep is certain that it was in the box when it was turned in.

 

[ModelMaker]

I agree with this rule change because it only covers the portion of the judging after the food has left the box. The teams don't have any control over what happens to the meat after it leaves the box. To me this rule addresses only situations where there is uncertainty of where the foreign object came from.

Look at Brad's example, it is impossible for cellophane from lettuce disks to be in his box because he does not use them. To me it is not unreasonable to think that a small piece of cellophane or white paper towel could fall from the bottom of one teams box on to another teams portion of judges mat without getting noticed until the judge takes a bite. A team should not be DQed unless if the judge, table captain or rep is certain that it was in the box when it was turned in.

Current rule is once the turn in box leaves the judges table it no longer can have a issue with DQ's.
If a spec of foil seems unfair to you, lobby the rules committee to change to a specific size similar to 1/8th inch chunks for sauce.
Don't cheapen the rule so it does not matter anymore.

 

[Roast Beast]

I move that for the KCBS Rules in 2020, the following change be made for foreign object(s) found in an entry box. If a foreign object is discovered during appearance judging, a 1 is given by all judges for appearance, taste and tenderness. If foreign object is discovered by judge(s) during eating, the rep will instruct judge(s) to score the entry 1 for appearance, taste and tenderness. Other CBJs score as usual"

Care to point out my "mathematical fallacy"?
If caught during appearance scoring it's a total DQ, if found during T&T scoring it's a free walk as that score is tossed, just like it never happened.

My post was meant to inform members of the BBQ community about a matter that I thought was worth noting.
Read it, don't read it. Do something or not. I put it out there for information because unless you keep up with BOD meeting notes or receive the Rules Committee notices very few will have known about it.

The mathematical fallacy is that you assume the sample with the foreign object would have been the lowest score before that judge changed his or her score to 1-1-1. If it weren't, then there is mathematical "punishment" for that sample, since the "new" dropped score results in a lower score being counted toward the actual score. Not as much of a punishment as under the old rule, but potential punishment nonetheless. Sorry you missed that possibility before you sent your hasty email. You could always send a revised email to the BOD. I'd also recommend taking out the exclamation mark in your next email. Might help them take you more seriously.

New rule, old rule, don't care. Won't change my behavior as a cook or a judge either way. Glad you found a windmill that suits your fancy, though. :thumb:

 

[gettinbasted]

Current rule is once the turn in box leaves the judges table it no longer can have a issue with DQ's.
If a spec of foil seems unfair to you, lobby the rules committee to change to a specific size similar to 1/8th inch chunks for sauce.
Don't cheapen the rule so it does not matter anymore.

This is not how the rule was applied in my case per discussion with those involved. It could be why the rep didn’t want to bring it to my attention until after awards. A DQ should happen for something while the food is in the box or being pulled from the box only.

 

[dirtydingus]

I remember this incident well.

So do I!!

 

[GrillBillie_D]

You have to remember the reason for the rule in the first place. Why does this rule exist? Does a tiny piece of foil really mean the cook failed? No! It means a tiny piece got by them. The intent of the rule is to prevent the marking of an entry. If you don't notice the foreign object during presentation, then how have you effectively marked a box? If one judge finds a small flake of foil or piece of plastic wrap on the back one piece, what are the chances that they marked the box and that one judge found it? Parsley sticks to the back of the meat and judges pick it off. Do the same with some small piece of a "foreign" object.

 

[Robert]

You have to remember the reason for the rule in the first place. Why does this rule exist? Does a tiny piece of foil really mean the cook failed? No! It means a tiny piece got by them. The intent of the rule is to prevent the marking of an entry. If you don't notice the foreign object during presentation, then how have you effectively marked a box? If one judge finds a small flake of foil or piece of plastic wrap on the back one piece, what are the chances that they marked the box and that one judge found it? Parsley sticks to the back of the meat and judges pick it off. Do the same with some small piece of a "foreign" object.

^^^^^^This right here.
However, just going to throw this out and I know this has happened as well. Leaving a tooth pick or stainless pin in chicken where the cook was trying to keep the skin in place and missed it when turning in that piece.


Robert