Phosphates Fail - Dry, Jerky Texture?!

[joespo]

I don't have access to really well-marbled ribs where I am, but I want to create the perfect competition rib texture and one day compete...

So recently I tried 3 different phosphate mixtures:

1. Make it Meaty: Injection Base - 5g / 1 rack
2. Make it Meaty: PhosThis Premium Phosphates Blend - 1 tbsp / 1 rack
3. Butcher BBQ Phosphate Injection - 1 tbsp / 1 rack

I calculated the amounts above based on the labels ... and before any beers to make sure I didn't mess it up! (or did I?)

For all 3, I first shook the phosphates with 1/2 cup cold water until dissolved. Then added a touch of maple syrup. For #3 only, I also added some other flavors to see if they were noticeable.

Then I injected each rack of ribs and let them sit overnight.

In the morning, I cooked them the way I always cook my ribs, which usually turn out super tender, in typical 3-2-1 style (really more like 2.5 - 1.0 - 0.25 at my 275 degrees): Smoke naked to color, wrap to tenderness, re-smoke a bit for flavor/appearance.

These phosphated racks took a little longer than usual in the wrap before I felt they were really probe tender and starting to crack. I think I left them in the wrap 30-60 more minutes than I usually do.

But complete opposite of my expectations, all 3 racks had the worst texture out of any ribs I've ever cooked. All 3 would still probe fairly tender, but had a dry texture when bitten into. And some parts were even jerky-like. The last thing you want with ribs!

The next day we tried putting them in the oven with some butter for another 60-90 minutes to see if we could maybe braise them a bit more for better texture... But the same thing happened... where they would probe nicely, and some started falling off the bone, but the texture was really dry once bitten into.

They were also considerably 'porkier' to the point where 2 of my regular tasters who normally love my ribs said they were 'fishy'...

Has anyone ever had these problems with phosphates and might know where I went wrong?

The phosphates clearly did something... But not in the direction I expected. I also used such a small amount... but maybe I used too much so that it somehow dried it out? Or do I just have to cook them much longer and past probe tender because of the way phosphates work?

 

[bschoen]

Maybe, with today's pretty crappy butchering, you just had some not so good ribs. You need more data, a control rack, ie - no phos, and your phosphate racks.

 

[SMOKE FREAK]

I use a phosphate brine on pork alot. But not on ribs. Not even sure why I would want to.

Phosphate in a brine does a great job of doing what you want a brine to do.

 

[thirdeye]

The first thing that strikes me is that the recommended amounts of all the products you tried out seem high, but I bet they are intended to work quickly. I use phosphates when curing hams or corning beef or pork roasts. I calculate AmesPhos for injections this way:
1. Liquid amount is 10% of the meat weight.
2. AmesPhos is used at 1.4 grams (0.3%) to 1.8 grams (0.4%) per pound of meat.

So a 6 pound brisket flat weighs 2,724 grams. I would use 272 grams of liquid and add 10.8 grams of AmesPhos. Then would inject as much of that liquid as the roast would hold, but add any leftover to the curing bag.

Ribs would be a different story. Let's say a rack of ribs weighs 3.5 pounds. But the bone weight needs to be subtracted to get the meat weight. Would the meat weight be 2 pounds? If so I would start with 90 grams (3 ounces) of water or juice etc., to that 3.6 grams of AmesPhos would be added.

I'm only familiar with Butchers TR and it contains papain for tenderizing. The recommended amounts appear to be higher than what I use, but the instructions say it's best to start your cook around 4 hours after injecting. I wonder if the 4 hour time is so the papain doesn't over tenderize? Could your overnight rest have been the problem?

 

[Cook]

Glad I get good ribs ...

 

[joespo]

I use a phosphate brine on pork alot. But not on ribs. Not even sure why I would want to.

Phosphate in a brine does a great job of doing what you want a brine to do.

How many g phosphate/oz liquid do you target for your brines (and for how long do you need to leave it in to penetrate fully)? Was thinking about trying it on a pork butt but am a little tepid after the ribs debacle...

 

[joespo]

The first thing that strikes me is that the recommended amounts of all the products you tried out seem high, but I bet they are intended to work quickly. I use phosphates when curing hams or corning beef or pork roasts. I calculate AmesPhos for injections this way:
1. Liquid amount is 10% of the meat weight.
2. AmesPhos is used at 1.4 grams (0.3%) to 1.8 grams (0.4%) per pound of meat.

So a 6 pound brisket flat weighs 2,724 grams. I would use 272 grams of liquid and add 10.8 grams of AmesPhos. Then would inject as much of that liquid as the roast would hold, but add any leftover to the curing bag.

Ribs would be a different story. Let's say a rack of ribs weighs 3.5 pounds. But the bone weight needs to be subtracted to get the meat weight. Would the meat weight be 2 pounds? If so I would start with 90 grams (3 ounces) of water or juice etc., to that 3.6 grams of AmesPhos would be added.

I'm only familiar with Butchers TR and it contains papain for tenderizing. The recommended amounts appear to be higher than what I use, but the instructions say it's best to start your cook around 4 hours after injecting. I wonder if the 4 hour time is so the papain doesn't over tenderize? Could your overnight rest have been the problem?

Thanks for the detailed maths here. I will keep this in mind for the next round. I wonder if the products I am using are comparable to AmesPhos, since the recommended amounts seem higher. But it does seem possible that I used too much, or just let it sit too long as you noted...

I may also grab a bag of Butchers TR to try--I wonder if 275 F counts as "hot and fast" in the phosphates world and impacted the reaction...

 

[Badjak]

I would do 1 rack in plain brine (about 2-3%) as a control.
Having said that, I have never used it and am actually only aware ofvthe use of phoshpates in sausages (supaphos)....

 

[thirdeye]

Thanks for the detailed maths here. I will keep this in mind for the next round. I wonder if the products I am using are comparable to AmesPhos, since the recommended amounts seem higher. But it does seem possible that I used too much, or just let it sit too long as you noted...

I may also grab a bag of Butchers TR to try--I wonder if 275 F counts as "hot and fast" in the phosphates world and impacted the reaction...

I can't speak to the comparison between the various products, but Joe Ames was the guy that developed FAB injections, one of the early products.

Have you tried any commercial injections that have phosphates added?

 

[joespo]

I can't speak to the comparison between the various products, but Joe Ames was the guy that developed FAB injections, one of the early products.

Have you tried any commercial injections that have phosphates added?

I tried commercial pork injections years ago, but never liked the flavor impact it had on my ribs… which is why I liked the idea of pure phosphates—allowing me to get the texture I’m looking for while still being in control of flavor.

But I am taking the FAB red pill. Just got some AmesPhos and FAB P to try it out for next time. FAB P will be a good comparison vs pure phosphates!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JS-TX]

Try using less phosphates and/or not injecting so much in advance.


Also try using some flavorless oil in your injection.

 

[thirdeye]

I tried commercial pork injections years ago, but never liked the flavor impact it had on my ribs… which is why I liked the idea of pure phosphates—allowing me to get the texture I’m looking for while still being in control of flavor.

But I am taking the FAB red pill. Just got some AmesPhos and FAB P to try it out for next time. FAB P will be a good comparison vs pure phosphates!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

From a commercial point of view, my current favorite combination for pork butts is Oakridge Game Changer (which has no phosphates) and Big Poppa Smokers Pork Prod.

 

[joespo]

Try using less phosphates and/or not injecting so much in advance.


Also try using some flavorless oil in your injection.

Thanks for the tip. I am starting to think oil/fat is a key missing element for that perfect 'competition bite' I'm looking for... I think phosphates are doing something a bit different than good ol' fat which is what I'm missing in my crappy supermarket ribs. Going to try a 50/50 liquid/fat ratio in my next injection experiment...

Unfortunately the next 2 weekends are all about turkey :mad2: so this will probably have to wait until December...

 

[JS-TX]

Thanks for the tip. I am starting to think oil/fat is a key missing element for that perfect 'competition bite' I'm looking for... I think phosphates are doing something a bit different than good ol' fat which is what I'm missing in my crappy supermarket ribs. Going to try a 50/50 liquid/fat ratio in my next injection experiment...

Unfortunately the next 2 weekends are all about turkey :mad2: so this will probably have to wait until December...

marbling is key for any meat.. oil may help improve this a tad. I've learned that there is no perfect injection for ribs, I've walked using various injections, some really savory and others sweet n savory... it's really about the overall flavor and how well you cook a good rack... and of course landing on the right tables helps quite a bit