KCBS Table of Death and Angels - Idea

[Rich Parker]

A few things need to be done. The sorting judges according to average is one that has been talked about since KCBS score came out.

The next, and biggest thing is mandatory judge testing. Every year judges have to log in and take a test with randomly generated questions. There should also be a portion that reviews the basic judgment rules.

Pass...you are allowed to judge for a year...until the next test
Fail and you are taken to a continuing education course.Complete it Then you can take the test again.

You want across the board fairness and improved scores...focus on a part of the KCBS Mission Statement...EDUCATION.

How does judges training stop TOD or TOA scenario? You can't train someone to taste a 9 or see a 9.

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

You get everyone on the same system...ie start from 6, start from 9; make sure they know all the rules, all the definitions.

You start with education. Once that happens, then you go to other problems. You eliminate the chance for mistakes, and then you are able to concentrate on outliers.

 

[BBQJudge]

Seems KCBS doesn't require cooks to pass a test on what a teams submits as acceptable BBQ. Maybe they need to average the cooks past contests and assign to tables accordingly.

 

[DUBBAGA]

Seems KCBS doesn't require cooks to pass a test on what a teams submits as acceptable BBQ. Maybe they need to average the cooks past contests and assign to tables accordingly.

I've been staring at this comment for 10min and have no clue where to begin... :tape:

 

[rob g]

You sure about that?

Sorry. You are correct. I was just looking at the KCBS rules pamphlet

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

KCBS doesn't require cooks to pass a test on what a teams submits as acceptable BBQ. Maybe they need to average the cooks past contests and assign to tables accordingly.

Correct, any Yahoo with a couple thousand bucks can be a cook, just like any Yahoo with $80 bucks can be a judge.

I'm a sectuple Yahoo, I'm a certified judge in 4 sanctioning bodies, and a cook in 3... :wink:

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

Sorry. You are correct. I was just looking at the KCBS rules pamphlet

No biggie brother, my point is there is alot of info for a judge to remember, especially if that judge only does 3-4 contests a year. That's why testing and refreshes are so important

 

[Smoke'n Ice]

The averaging, judge track and continuing education ides, while laudable, can only work in and around KC or other major BBQ contest hubs. Most of the judges in other areas of the country only judge one, maybe two, contest a year. Shoot, some are judges for the first time as witness the number of judging classes presented each year.

I'm starting to think that the idea of scrambling the judges each category may be the ONLY way to bring some semblance of fairness to the quandary of TOD/TOA

 

[Rich Parker]

You get everyone on the same system...ie start from 6, start from 9; make sure they know all the rules, all the definitions.

You start with education. Once that happens, then you go to other problems. You eliminate the chance for mistakes, and then you are able to concentrate on outliers.

I understand all judges should be on the same system but that doesn't change anything on how they feel about scoring taste and appearance as they are both to subjective. What I feel is a 9 you may feel is a 6 even if we score the same system. We need to accept that and put the right people at the right tables to level them out. I am not saying that is a perfect method but would greatly improve the scenario.

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

I understand all judges should be on the same system but that doesn't change anything on how they feel about scoring taste and appearance as they are both to subjective. What I feel is a 9 you may feel is a 6 even if we score the same system. We need to accept that and put the right people at the right tables to level them out. I am not saying that is a perfect method but would greatly improve the scenario.

Both are needed brother. I just feel that education can be implemented faster than the tracking system needed to fix the TOA TOD problem. No one can answer if KCBS has saved individual judges scores under their numbers. We do know that continuing education programs are currently being implemented. And testing could easily be added to these programs.

I also feel that if you input scores in from before an education mandate and after, you will see a difference in scores.

 

[Gowan]

I brought up the idea of sorting judges by their average score to a new rep and the response I received was "that's too much work". While I don't agree with that attitude, it is the organizer's duties to recruit judges. Therefore, if organizers could submit a list of judges membership numbers to KCBS, say a week before their contest (after a final commitment from the judges), the judges' average scores could then be calculated and a seating chart sent back to the organizer. The chart could be posted and judges could seat themselves without the Reps. having to lift a finger. No-shows would still need to be replaced but standby judges would only change the table averages slightly.

Have you ever been involved with organizing judges for a contest?

I've been doing so for a over decade, and I have yet to see an event where you have a final list of judges a week before the contest. Anyone will tell you that I am one of the most fanatical people around about selecting judges and balancing tables, and yet still there are always last minute cancellations and substitutions. (And yes, my seating charts are posted on each table so The Walrus never has to lift a flipper).

Remember that unlike cooks, most judges have no financial incentive to attend beyond possibly a hotel room reservation. They are much more likely to change plans, and the more experienced they are the less it takes to sway them. Mr. Newbie is still grateful for actually being accepted to judge, but Mrs. Master will take that last minute invitation to sit with the grandbaby without thinking twice.

I'm not being harsh here as I'm a judge myself, I just think it's important to recognize that judges have different motivations than cooks. As cooks we are working for a big trophy and a bunch of cash, the best a judge can hope for is a tshirt and a pin.

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

As cooks we are working for a big trophy and a bunch of cash, the best a judge can hope for is a tshirt and a pin.

What about the privledge of eating good bbq.
And walking around to teams after judging, making friends, and discussing what they like to see in the judging box.
How bout showing up to potlucks, introducing yourself and being part of the bbq family

Judges have the power to change bbq for the better. They have the power to describe to teams exactly what they feel perfection is. They have the power to lift a new team up after their first DAL and give them the confidence to try again. Judges have the direct power to help a team improve by filling out a comment card.

Judges have the power to change bbq for the better...but many squander it away. Many don't visit with teams, they don't communicate at all with teams. Many think comment cards are a chore, and refuse to use them.

Teams may get the trophies, but a judge has the ability to share that experience...a judge has the ability to mentor and educate.

As a judge you have the ability to create winners and be a proud papa when they win. Ask our BBQ Brethren QN about MIM 2012, a team he mentored won 2nd ribs in the world...he was giddy with excitement.

 

[Gowan]

All of those first three are available to any enthusiastic Schmoe who shows up at a BBQ festival. Obviously the social aspects of the community are a plus for all involved.

I spoke directly to the tangible rewards offered to judges vs. cooks. As for the "powers" you endow judges with, consider the following:

The average judge is considerably older than the average cook, and often retired.
Cooks can be a boisterous lot on Friday night, and judges are instructed to stay away from teams on Saturday. Combine that with the judge-bashing prevalent in the various BBQ forums and the smack talk some like to engage in, and interacting with the cooks must seem intimidating to Mr & Ms AARP.

I can give you one concrete example of this - at the current contest I organize, we distribute all the goodie bags to the teams. Each team gets two bags: one to keep and one for a judge. When judging is completed, each CBJ draws a team from a hat to go out and chat with and claim their bag. It's a program designed to break down the barriers between cooks and judges, and almost universally well received.

But not totally accepted, because every year I speak with at least one team who tells me their judge never arrived. This puzzles me. It's not that they aren't physically able to get there, we give bags directly to those with mobility issues. It's not that they can't find the team as I show each where the team is on a park map and describe their rig. All I can figure is there are a handful of folks in every group who are just painfully shy about meeting with cooks and would rather abandon their swag than walk into a team's camp and say hi.

I don't know what else I can do other than pass out Powdermilk Biscuits in the judging tent.

 

[ModelMaker]

What about the privledge of eating good bbq.
And walking around to teams after judging, making friends, and discussing what they like to see in the judging box.
How bout showing up to potlucks, introducing yourself and being part of the bbq family

Judges have the power to change bbq for the better. They have the power to describe to teams exactly what they feel perfection is. They have the power to lift a new team up after their first DAL and give them the confidence to try again. Judges have the direct power to help a team improve by filling out a comment card.

Judges have the power to change bbq for the better...but many squander it away. Many don't visit with teams, they don't communicate at all with teams. Many think comment cards are a chore, and refuse to use them.

Teams may get the trophies, but a judge has the ability to share that experience...a judge has the ability to mentor and educate.

As a judge you have the ability to create winners and be a proud papa when they win. Ask our BBQ Brethren QN about MIM 2012, a team he mentored won 2nd ribs in the world...he was giddy with excitement.

A very thoughtful and very true post. Thank you very much.
Ed

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

All of those first three are available to any enthusiastic Schmoe who shows up at a BBQ festival. Obviously the social aspects of the community are a plus for all involved.

I spoke directly to the tangible rewards offered to judges vs. cooks. As for the "powers" you endow judges with, consider the following:

The average judge is considerably older than the average cook, and often retired.
Cooks can be a boisterous lot on Friday night, and judges are instructed to stay away from teams on Saturday. Combine that with the judge-bashing prevalent in the various BBQ forums and the smack talk some like to engage in, and interacting with the cooks must seem intimidating to Mr & Ms AARP.

I can give you one concrete example of this - at the current contest I organize, we distribute all the goodie bags to the teams. Each team gets two bags: one to keep and one for a judge. When judging is completed, each CBJ draws a team from a hat to go out and chat with and claim their bag. It's a program designed to break down the barriers between cooks and judges, and almost universally well received.

But not totally accepted, because every year I speak with at least one team who tells me their judge never arrived. This puzzles me. It's not that they aren't physically able to get there, we give bags directly to those with mobility issues. It's not that they can't find the team as I show each where the team is on a park map and describe their rig. All I can figure is there are a handful of folks in every group who are just painfully shy about meeting with cooks and would rather abandon their swag than walk into a team's camp and say hi.

I don't know what else I can do other than pass out Powdermilk Biscuits in the judging tent.

What you are doing is Awesome, if we were at your contest we would take as many judge bags as you could give us. There is a huge divide between cook and judge ,in KCBS and I'm glad to see someone solving the problem.

You know what would be really cool to have, a MCBJ panel for an hour on a Friday before a contest. 6 MCBJs sitting at a table, and teams could ask questions about what they like and don't like.

My belief is judge's feel bashed because cooks have unanswered questions. Knowledge is power, and in KCBS, Judges have a lot of knowledge, and therefore they own the power of change

 

[arrowhead]

All of those first three are available to any enthusiastic Schmoe who shows up at a BBQ festival. Obviously the social aspects of the community are a plus for all involved.

I spoke directly to the tangible rewards offered to judges vs. cooks. As for the "powers" you endow judges with, consider the following:

The average judge is considerably older than the average cook, and often retired.
Cooks can be a boisterous lot on Friday night, and judges are instructed to stay away from teams on Saturday. Combine that with the judge-bashing prevalent in the various BBQ forums and the smack talk some like to engage in, and interacting with the cooks must seem intimidating to Mr & Ms AARP.

I can give you one concrete example of this - at the current contest I organize, we distribute all the goodie bags to the teams. Each team gets two bags: one to keep and one for a judge. When judging is completed, each CBJ draws a team from a hat to go out and chat with and claim their bag. It's a program designed to break down the barriers between cooks and judges, and almost universally well received.

But not totally accepted, because every year I speak with at least one team who tells me their judge never arrived. This puzzles me. It's not that they aren't physically able to get there, we give bags directly to those with mobility issues. It's not that they can't find the team as I show each where the team is on a park map and describe their rig. All I can figure is there are a handful of folks in every group who are just painfully shy about meeting with cooks and would rather abandon their swag than walk into a team's camp and say hi.

I don't know what else I can do other than pass out Powdermilk Biscuits in the judging tent.

as an organizer i am going to do this, thank you.

 

[Roast Beast]

What you are doing is Awesome, if we were at your contest we would take as many judge bags as you could give us. There is a huge divide between cook and judge ,in KCBS and I'm glad to see someone solving the problem.

It works well. Our assigned judge wasn't particularly chatty and didn't want any of our BBQ (we did convince her to take some dessert), but it was still a good experience. Our neighbor's judges hung around their camp for a while and I believe sampled some of their meats and gave feedback.

 

[Gowan]

as an organizer i am going to do this, thank you.

Hope it works for you!

Here are a few details to consider when implementing "meet the teams":

1) Do not allow any food to leave the judging tent. No coolers, no bags, no drumsticks in purses. Judges who want to take food home may ask for it from their assigned team (see #2).

2) Stress at both the cooks and judges meetings that both groups are not to attempt to break the blind. Cooks should not show photos of their boxes or ask what table number the judge was on. Judges should likewise not volunteer any specifics about how their table scored or any other information that would defeat the blinding procedures.

3) Encourage the cooks to offer to share take-home samples of their BBQ for their visiting judge if they want it (many do not, but some like to share the experience with their family members back home). When you explain that this is the trade off for not allowing judges to take any food out of the judging tent, most teams accept the idea readily.

3) You will probably have more judges than you have teams. What I do to deal with this disparity is to ask if there is anyone who cannot walk out and see a team because they have to leave immediately or have limited mobility. These people are given bags immediately in the judging tent. Next I give bags to anyone working the turn in or grazing tables (this ensures the teams are only meeting the judges and table captains who actually saw the entries that day). Finally I put the appropriate number of "Sorry!" slips in the draw bin, to make sure everyone gets a chance to draw, otherwise the last few judges in line won't have a chance at visiting a team.

4) Be sure to have someone ready to direct the judges to their assigned team. A site map is a big help, or at least someone who was involved in placing all the teams and can give accurate instructions on how to find each one. A timid judge won't ask around the lot if they can't find their team and may just give up. Remember by this time many teams have begun their break-down and may have already packed up identifying banners.

 

[Podge]

The judges meal in a Brick and Mortar, using proper competitve math would be $1680...

.

Damn... profound statement

 

[peterz]

Damn... profound statement

Or someone is smoking the good stuff.............if you know what I mean =)