KCBS "lower level" ToY contest

[Rich Parker]

We (MABA) already have a ToY and I believe NEBS and the FBA have them as well.

Great Lakes BBQ Association has their own ToY program. You only need 3 comps to give it a run.

 

[Capn Kev]

The RMBBQA has it's own TOY contest too. You have to cook at least 6 comps to qualify for the RMBBQA Cup. If you cook more, they take your best 6 scores (and award prizes in each category). They also have a "shot glass" division for those that cook less than 6. In that case, they take the best 3 contests out of the 3-5 that you cook.

 

[HoDeDo]

One other thing we can't forget here.... The events in question are not run or organized by KCBS. And most have something they are raising money for.... There is not an organizer that will turn away your money to make his event more successful. so Let's play this out one step further.... Todd declares for Baby Toy, and competes in events with ToY players.... if the points dont count... Let's say Todd does better than Team X.... Team X places 2nd or 3rd to him at every event... If Todd's points dont count, team X could be a larger contender in the Overall ToY, as a 2nd or 3 place finisher... because 3rd becomes 1st... And I can still enter whatever I want, because KCBS is just doing the Judging -- they do not have any say over who an organizer lets in to compete.

I did all the travel a couple of years ago when we decided to try to win ToY, and ended up 5th. There is no way I could sustain that travel year in and year out. but it was fun once. It was interesting Dawg, that you changed criteria -- at first it was 10 or less... and then it was, once you are in the top Ten of Baby ToY, you have to move up.... Well how does that work, if I only compete in 10 or less events for points... now you are saying I dont get to compete in a series unless I want to spend $1000's more and move up to 25+ events a year.... What if I am perfectly content winning the series that only counts 10 events? I thought it was based on how many you compete in.

Let's say a deadline is set for delcaring. You miss it. What happens? Are you instantly put in one of the races or out completely?

You make "this year" and "next year" sound so easy. There's a ton of luck that goes into this in addition to the skill. Teams don't finish in the same position year to year. Many who thought they would never chase TOY points find themselves in a top 10 position and start to find a way to cook more. Many teams will tell you it is hard to repeat the same success for many reasons. I'm sure TrueBud had no idea they'd earn so many 1st place rib finishes. In October, they were top 10, but not 1st in Rib TOY. They cooked everywhere the last 3 months trying to get to Rib TOY... and did. It ain't easy, folks. Teams will jump on planes or drive halfway across the country in October-December if they are having a good run, just to finish top 10 in a category.

If I declare Baby TOY, am I limited to the number of contests I can cook, or just the number that count? Can I declare Baby TOY and cook 35 contests? Is that what the guy who cooked 7 was really expecting? I'm betting I could pull 5 GC's and RGC's in 35 contests. Most cooks could when you cook that much.

If I declare TOY and something happens with my job, my family, or myself, but I cooked 6-8 solid contests, am I not able to be considered part of Baby TOY? I'm assuming your answer is no.

There's a lot of manual effort that goes into keep that TOY list today. Keeping two and having to track declarations could be challenging.

OH!!!! Can I have two teams? A TOY team and a Baby TOY team? Afterall, TOY is not tracked by head cook, but by team! Forget all of my points above. I just found the loophole! :thumb:

 

[HoDeDo]

if you miss the sign up deadline, you miss out. That isnt that hard.

I dont know if there will be a limit on the number of contests that you can cook. This isnt my proposal. Maybe you should ask candy. However I believe that making it so that you can only count contests for 1 series and making the prize for the baby TOY much less than the regular TOY would eliminate most of this type of stuff.

correct. Like you said, there is some luck involved in TOY.

KCBS's data problems are their own.

You didn't, but thanks for playing. If you want to create 2 teams and cook in both the Baby and regular TOY, you could, but you couldnt cook the same contest as 2 teams with the same head cook per standard KCBS rules. And points earned wouldn't apply to both series. So you would need to decide when applying to a contest if that contest was going to be a baby or regular contest by which team name you put down.

I just dont think that there would be too many teams trying to compete in both the baby and regular TOY. You might, to prove a point, but seems silly to spend that much effort winning a t-ball trophy when you are good enough to play in the show.

Again, you are mixing criteria here... Why assume it is a T-Ball trophy... there are alot of GOOD teams, that due to time/travel constraints do not cook that many events a year. or like to stay local, because they dont have the wherewithall to travel. This is still a hobby... You're making a poor assumption that there wont be teams that are excellent in the "baby" ToY, simply because they dont cook enough events to be a contender in the big one... even if they could beat those top teams day in and day out.

Money, Vacation time available, Childrens activities, all could impact how a team chooses to compete in a given year. I will tell you right now, I am a competitor, any day of the week...but my girls take priority over me... if they devote thier time to soccer for example... that will kill alot of my weekends I might compete... so I might make a concious decision to go for a series that is smaller ( if one was available). Todd and his boys have Scouts, others have things... you lose a job, etc. The smaller series could be just that.... Smaller. I wouldnt assume it would be any less competitive or have a lower quality cook involved. 90% or more of us bankroll our own seasons. Now if there were sponsors in the upper series, for teams then that is different.... But we are no where near that national sponsorship type level yet. The "Product" isnt there. We need to look like pros, to be treated like pros. We dont have the game atthat level.... I like Scottie's point... Look at the Sam's club, several teams at Bentonville competed less than 10 times last year. They wouldnt be competing for a "T-Ball" trophy...

 

[DawgPhan]

Again, you are mixing criteria here... Why assume it is a T-Ball trophy... there are alot of GOOD teams, that due to time/travel constraints do not cook that many events a year. or like to stay local, because they dont have the wherewithall to travel. This is still a hobby... You're making a poor assumption that there wont be teams that are excellent in the "baby" ToY, simply because they dont cook enough events to be a contender in the big one... even if they could beat those top teams day in and day out.

Money, Vacation time available, Childrens activities, all could impact how a team chooses to compete in a given year. I will tell you right now, I am a competitor, any day of the week...but my girls take priority over me... if they devote thier time to soccer for example... that will kill alot of my weekends I might compete... so I might make a concious decision to go for a series that is smaller ( if one was available). Todd and his boys have Scouts, others have things... you lose a job, etc. The smaller series could be just that.... Smaller. I wouldnt assume it would be any less competitive or have a lower quality cook involved. 90% or more of us bankroll our own seasons. Now if there were sponsors in the upper series, for teams then that is different.... But we are no where near that national sponsorship type level yet. The "Product" isnt there. We need to look like pros, to be treated like pros. We dont have the game atthat level.... I like Scottie's point... Look at the Sam's club, several teams at Bentonville competed less than 10 times last year. They wouldnt be competing for a "T-Ball" trophy...

You removed all the context from what I said. Thanks.

Secondly, nearly every detractor in this thread has mentioned t-ball, little kids soccer, or giving a trophy to everyone. I didnt coin the t-ball mentality, I was just playing along with it.

Further more, my t-ball comment was made in the context of someone attempting to manage 2 teams for the purpose of gaming the system to compete for both the baby and regular TOY.

d. Where am I mixing criteria?

 

[YankeeBBQ]

I think the whole concept of only counting 10 competitions is ridiculous. Does the Cy Young winner get judged on his 10 best starts? Every competition should count. Either as a true points race where it is cumulative, or as an average per competition (with a minimum # of at bats).

The number of wins a pitcher has doesn't decide who wins the Cy Young award. It's decided by a panel of 16 baseball writers and can be somewhat of a popularity contest. And if you think about it, it is decided on the pitchers "best starts".

The Patriots would have been the league champs in 2007 if that was just decided on number of wins or points scored.

 

[YankeeBBQ]

Sorry but I just don't see the point of any kind of second tier TOY.

Well the point is to get more teams involved in the points chase. To make TOY a benefit for all KCBS teams and not just the guys that can go out 30 weekends a year, who happen to be a small minority. The second tier is not meant to take anything away from the current TOY system (that includes money).

 

[YankeeBBQ]

Baseball has division champs, league champs and world series champ.
Hockey has division champs, conference champs and stanley cup champ. They're system is based on points not wins in the regular season.

 

[Alexa RnQ]

Baseball has division champs, league champs and world series champ.
Hockey has division champs, conference champs and stanley cup champ. They're system is based on points not wins in the regular season.

These examples have some similarities to BBQ, but some differences also. No doubt it's an advantage to have a much bigger segment of teams in the running for divisions, with the excitement that generates as well as the impetus to compete more.

However, the sports leagues examples also involve the basic idea that the teams can travel, and that's one limiting factor for most BBQ teams, particularly in a sluggish economy.

Does that bring us back to factoring in a "batting average" of sorts?

 

[82's BBQ]

Baseball has division champs, league champs and world series champ.
Hockey has division champs, conference champs and stanley cup champ. They're system is based on points not wins in the regular season.

This isn't that bad of an idea. GC/RC in a qualifying event are eligible for a State championship entry (from the state that your team is registered in), (5) regional championships (top 3 from each state championship) and a national championship (top 3 from each regional).

 

[roksmith]

A team that is only cooking a couple contests a year is not going to Bentonville.

Why not?
We cook 4 or 5 contests per year and if hadn't had a poor cook in Maryland, we would have been there.

If a team only cooks a handful of contests per year and isn't good enough to make the field at Bentonville, should they really even be considered for a TOY type of award?

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

Lets start by throwing the term "TOY" out of the conversation. TOY is an honor that should not be confused with State TOY or Regional TOY...it should just be KCBS Team of the Year...period

If you get into state by state champions, the KCBS is going to have to hire a person JUST to keep everything organized.

Regional I can see, but that still lets the Big Dogs sweep the regionals and does nothing for the 80% of teams that don't travel far from their home.

I say combine the ideas we have all been talking about.

In each of the 5 regions you have 3 divisions. The divisions are based on how many TOTAL KCBS contests a team enters during the year. Not just in the region, but in the organization

Amateur - 1-5 Contests
Intermidiate - 6-10 Contests
Senior/Pro/Competitor series - 11+ contests

The TOY stays the same as it is a KCBS organization wide, non-regional award.

Amateur is best 4 out of 5
Intermidiate is best 8 out of 10
Competitor is best 10 all year

Points are tallied among the 5 regions and a regional winner is crowned in each division. You can cook as many contests as you want, and you will move into the different divisions based on the number of total KCBS contests cooked.

You then have 5 Region Champs in 3 divisions:

Region 1 -5 Amateur Division Champion
Region 1 -5 Intermidate Division Champion
Region 1 -5 Competitor Division Champion

You then take the 5 regions and look at the points. Out of the 5 winning teams in each region, a KCBS Division Champion is crowned.

KCBS Amateur Division Champion
KCBS Intermidate Division Champion
KCBS Competitor Division Champion

You can even make some money for the KCBS organization with sponsorships for the individual awards... ie.

The series could be sponsored by Cattlemans and be the Cattleman's Cup, etc.

I know I will get flamed for it but I don't care...this model leaves the TOY alone while introducing a way to give EVERY team in BBQ a way to compete with teams just like theirs on an even playing field. It brings a larger competitive dynamic to the sport that we have not seen before.

 

[txschutte]

I say "NO" to a lower level TOY.

I jumped in with both feet this year. I don't want some soft hearted soccer trophy because I only can cook less than 10 comps. So what. I would be going against those local guys that wanna party for a few contests.

I decided to run with the big dogs for a reason, TO BECOME A BIG DOG!!

However, I wouldn't be against a Rookie of the Year Award for first time KCBS cooks. If I kick butt my first year and achieve ROY, maybe I should step up to more contests to work on TOY.

 

[Q-Dat]

NOBODY WANTS A PARTICIPATION TROPHY!

NOBODY WANTS A PARTICIPATION TROPHY!

NOBODY WANTS A PARTICIPATION TROPHY!

NOBODY WANTS A PARTICIPATION TROPHY!

NOBODY WANTS A PARTICIPATION TROPHY!

NOBODY WANTS A PARTICIPATION TROPHY!

NOBODY WANTS A PARTICIPATION TROPHY!

NOBODY WANTS A PARTICIPATION TROPHY!


Do I need to type it again? Is there anyone left who does not underatand this? I hate the whole concept of a participation trophy! That is NOT what is being suggested here! Nobody is handing anyone anything here! You would still have to work and cook your tail off to beat all of the other people that cook between 5 and 10 comps a year! And lets face it. Just about every comp has someone in it that has T.O.Y. somewhere on their radar, so if you win a KCBS sanctioned event, you most likely will beat at least one well known team. Does that make you a better team than them? No, but it who is to say thats not potentially the best team out there? If they see nothing within their reach, they may never make the leap into cooking more.

This is something that WILL get more people to cook more contests! When more people cook prize money goes up! When prize money goes up the "Big Dogs" who are competing get a chance to win more money to cover their expenses for all of that traveling that it takes to compete for T.O.Y.

This can be beneficial for EVERYBODY!!!!!

I may get my first ever flaming on this forum, but oh well. I don't intend to get under anyone's skin with this, but a bunch of folks(all really great folks that I admire) are shooting this idea down without giving any better reason than "sucks to be you if your life intereferes with cooking contests"

Rant over, I'm going to my room!

 

[82's BBQ]

Here is my question for those that are against this idea, are you going to cook less if this is implemented?

 

[SHBBQ]

I say "NO" to a lower level TOY.

I jumped in with both feet this year. I don't want some soft hearted soccer trophy because I only can cook less than 10 comps. So what. I would be going against those local guys that wanna party for a few contests.

I decided to run with the big dogs for a reason, TO BECOME A BIG DOG!!

However, I wouldn't be against a Rookie of the Year Award for first time KCBS cooks. If I kick butt my first year and achieve ROY, maybe I should step up to more contests to work on TOY.

"I decided to run with the big dogs for a reason, TO BECOME A BIG DOG!!" <--- best quote of the thread so far!

 

[RangerJ]

I say "NO" to a lower level TOY.

I jumped in with both feet this year. I don't want some soft hearted soccer trophy because I only can cook less than 10 comps. So what. I would be going against those local guys that wanna party for a few contests.

I decided to run with the big dogs for a reason, TO BECOME A BIG DOG!!

However, I wouldn't be against a Rookie of the Year Award for first time KCBS cooks. If I kick butt my first year and achieve ROY, maybe I should step up to more contests to work on TOY.

Yes, because again, lifes curve balls and financial or geograhpical contraints have nothing to do with how many cooks one does, thus relegating some of us to "local guys that want to party for a few contests".

Speaking of curve balls, just how many cooks would it take to qualify for ROY if it existed?

 

[Brew-B-Q]

This thread just keeps going in circles. The more I think about it, I say just leave the concept of a two tier awards system alone. Too much drama with people confusing it as a participation award or as a threat to the top tier award.

The fact is, though, without all of the field filler teams like myself that only cook a handful of contests each year, the "big dogs" wouldn't have many people to play with every weekend.

Rather than see more TOY awards, I'm in favor of more tournament style events such as Sam's.

 

[Scottie]

Rather than see more TOY awards, I'm in favor of more tournament style events such as Sam's.

I agree. End of year TOY cash awards could add a whole new twists on a end of year contest. I felt this since they announced they were doing it.

I am one of those against a second tier. I am not wanting to hold anyone down because they don't cook 25+ contests a year either, as some have alluded. I now cook around 15 contests. Does that make a team a big dog? I'd rather my record speak, not how many contests I do. Will I ever compete for TOY? Nope. Do I feel I am slighted? Nope. I have an opportunity to finish a category in top 20 for TOY standings. That is more than enough reward for me and incentive.

 

[Smokin' Gnome BBQ]

one thing I may have missed, does cooking 30 contest automatically make you a big dog?

In the mid-atlantic a team ..PA Midnite Smokers only cooks 6-8 (Im pretty sure) and I would put them up there with the best..and so would 3rd at the Jack last year. They are always up there in the standings. Could they compete in 30 , oh yea. probably just dont want to.

leave the TOY as it is.