KCBS Judging

[Pitmaster T]

About 14 years ago I commented to one of the Rib Rangers "if they [KCBS] ever make it to Houston I will become a judge for them." hold it... that was 1996...sooooo uh... my how times flies.

I have made true my promise... even though they have made it only to Huntsville. Close enough.

I have judged a lot IBCA, cooked a lot... especially IBCA... now I joined KCBS.

I am glad to tell that I still have my cook's heart when judging. I was worried that I might give bad scores because of reasons other than what was in the box.

All day today, each and every score I have was an 8 or above, except for one appearance score on a "Chef's Choice" item which was, under the burned art.... apparently a ABT. They got a 7. I figured since I was new to all this KCBS stuff I'd let someone else's score get thrown out.

A couple times I took the time to use the new comment card for positive comments like "Shuttup and take my money -- this is excellent!" I hope they don't mind. One I thought was pretty good but I wrote on there that I felt the salt was too high and caused the cumin to be too abrupt... poor guy... he got a 9 8 9. I wish I could taste it when he fixes that if he does. I know I'd take a 989 all damn day. I don't see any point filling out a comment card for something that is really bad... not in the ball park even. They will find out soon enough. I'd rather give constructive comments on entries that stand a chance or barely missed it. I have a special heart for those that nail it and I don't want them to fotch with their bbq anymore. LOL

I saw master judges tell some of the other new judges "don't score appearance below an 8 or they are out of the game..." On one note it is 14% I thought so ... so what? But I get the point.

That's a thing that was covered in training but really strange to have brought up after the first entry. I am glad he didn't talk to me. What was he doing looking at that other person's scores on their card anyway? This was a master judge that was actually judging. Maybe the new guy gave a really low score... I have no idea.

Odder still was after I figured if they were comfortable enough looking at others enough to come over and talk to them - well - I may have seen some of their scores.... loaded with 6s, 4's etc. Kind of odd. Must be a cult thing. You can't score what you really think unless you know the secret handshake.

The newbie (lady) brought up good point. The master judge said "hey, a little advice on your next card.... you should not give a score below 8 on appearance unless it looks like they threw up on the plate." She told him... holding up the KCBS card... LOL "it looks like you need to replace the description for "7" with "Vomit looking" instead of "above average" which is what it says on the card for "7."

I will never forget how hard I worked when I competed. So, yes, there were items I saw that were "average," which I think is a 6.... but I did not have a heart.... which is what they want me to have... a heart.... but yet you cannot "compare" anything to anything else, either on your dinner plate or in memory... which in my case, is the hardest of all.

The people were very friendly to one another, especially the Texas ones.

Let's see... I made one mistake... I put a small c next to a score to remind me that I wanted to comment on the Cumin. I was told to jot it on my dinner plate. I am cool with that.

At another table there was another master judge... it was hilarious... that was frustrated to no end with someone who would NOT grab the box themselves. You could hear him shouting "GRAB THE BOX!!!!!!!!!" and the guy was like... it ain't falling... sheesh."

I loved this one. I will go back next year.

Now if you don't mind... I am so full I could **** a waiter.

 

[Swamp Donkeyz BBQ]

It was great to get the chance to meet you! We'll be seeing each other down the road Brother!

 

[Smoke'n Ice]

It sounds like a couple of master judges need to be re-certified, re-calibrated, re-jected or re-gurgitated.

 

[deguerre]

Donnie is judging KCBS. Damn. I'll miss him...

 

[Alexa RnQ]

I can't tell you how much I would love to get a comment card that said "Shut up and take my money!"

 

[Meat Man]

How refreshing, giving out a positive comment card. Thanks for judging.

 

[Pitmaster T]

Let me reiterate on the master judge thing. I liked the guy. The master judges play a key role. There is only so much they can teach in a class. Then you start forgetin **** or maybe they drop a thing or two in class that they taught in another..(thanks to smartphones I an always review the record) but the master judges do keep a sort of order.

I'll give some examples. The Table captain at our table was new... and it was really good to have a guy that new what was going on to keep the TC straight - mostly on how you call the numbers and stuff... minor stuff, really.

Heck something I kept doing that was never covered in class (once again there is only so much time) is when to get up. It was cool to have a master judge actually put his hand on my shoulder to keep me from getting up at the wrong time to empty my dinner plate. You see we had one guy that judged and took even longer than I did. He would hide his card under his mat so you could not tell if he was judging or pickin... I would look around and think everyone was done and want to throw my stuff away. Had to wait.

Okay FINALLY let me tell you a funny story. Well in one of the ancillary categories they were going to have beans. But I heard someone say there might be seafood. I am allergic to seafood - bad. So I tired to get one of the organizers to talk to me about it but they were so busy with other details I never could.

So first entry was an ABT, second was a damn crab salad with shrimp. DING DING DING... hello someone.... "no talking" i hear. Well fiddle sticks. So luckily the organizer comes by and when he hears I am allergic he is not pleased. So I get switched just for this one catgory to another table that say will have no seafood. No problem right?

We get new cards and we are just in the plating part so no one has tasted anything. I get put at the table with the stronger willed of the master judges. Nice guy...until you do something screwy then he is my dad. Okay so we plate everything and I am enjoying the hell out of this one ABT and another lady screams "honey.. there's shrimp in this!" MJ says "NO TALKING" I am looking and really it so good I don't care... but there is no shrimp what is in my mouth. She says "what on earth are you taking about - he said he was allergic to shrimp!" MJ says "you are impacting his judging no talking." I am about to spit it out the whole thing is so funny... the damn thing would be exactly what I'd like to be eating before I die it was so good. She mumbles "well, I was trying to save his life."

The point of that story is it is kind of cool how seriously they take judging and the rules...even if it means someone will drop dead in the process. HE may have had a point.... I never had a reaction to that so she may have been wrong. Of course he is also the one who after the category told another judge that they should not score what they scored (a 7 I overheard) because it would put them out of the money.

I think I will sit out ancillaries if I cannot see if the judges can accommodate. I never saw beans... which is what I thought I would be judging.

On not putting down scores below an 8, which I insist I think is something they may tell newbies so that you don't have a judge whose ink isn't dry yet ruining a guys chances... I think it shows they really have the competitors heart in focus as it should be.

However, I kept thinking... look at this picture

One of the Brisket samples I had was pulled from this I bet. Six slices.. can you imagine pulling six slices from that? They had to of pulled it with a spatula. Now I did end up following the informal - I call it a guilt rule they kept pushing... please do not score below an 8 or you put them out of the money. I got to thinkin'.... giving that guy an 8 when the other slices were 8 and nines and thoroughly enjoyed is not exactly fair either. But the others did sort of take care of the system I guess.

Once again... thoroughly enjoyed the experience. Good people. Very different from an IBCA judging... and I hope to see more KCBS in the state.

 

[ModelMaker]

Jeez I wish you have paid better attention while taking the CBJ class. KCBS judging is not about your heart as a cook. Unless you were at a worlds championship with only the very best cook teams you did a diservice to all the cooks by just giving nothing lower than an 8. I have never judged a contest that did not have 5,6,7,8,9's on my card. In your opinion a bunrt ABT is "above average"? What of the cooks that presented a "true" above average ABT? They got cheated out of their deserved score. The "newbie lady" was exactly correct, the words associated with the number score are there for a reason. Vomit and above average are not the same.
Having been to 6 different CBJ trainig classes now I can tell you KCBS didn't teach you to use your heart in judging.
And the "master judge" teaching incorrect mantra should have been pointed out to the KCBS Rep.
Comment cards are intended to be used to provide usefull information for scores given to cook teams. As explained in the CBJ class and on the judges CD a comment card for a high score is not nesessary as the score itself is an indicater of their entry.
An explanation of why the judge gave a 5 or 6 is much more appreciated than a slang encrypted high five to a cook team.
Having witnessed your days long rebuttles before I won't be baited by revisiting this thread nor do I expect you will change your way of judging a KCBS contest, I just thought the rest of the judging pool should not be soured by thinking your process was correct.
Least you think this is a personal attack it is not, my only goal was to highlight your incorrect use of the KCBS CBJ training that you paid for. There are several other members of the KCBS CBJ Committe that frequent this forum and I would encourage them to weigh in also.
Ed

 

[Pitmaster T]

And I wish you could read.

Second.. I do go on later about what an 8 for a sub par product I think does.

Jeez I wish you have paid better attention while taking the CBJ class.

The entire point of this was to point out what actually was said in the training.... so sorry if you could not get that. They defintely said this in the meeting. Not that you couldn't... but that it was kind of frowned upon. Please read things entirely.

KCBS judging is not about your heart as a cook. Unless you were at a worlds championship with only the very best cook teams you did a diservice to all the cooks by just giving nothing lower than an 8.

Once again... then maybe the class being taught should not say this at all? I said they said it in class... they said it in class. Were YOU in that class? No. So maybe your comments should be in agreement with me instead of saying lies like it was never said in my class.



I have never judged a contest that did not have 5,6,7,8,9's on my card. In your opinion a bunrt ABT is "above average"?

I really think you can't read now. Or maybe you can't infer. I think I pretty much covered that by showing the funny story about the lady who said the damn card says "Above Average"

What of the cooks that presented a "true" above average ABT? They got cheated out of their deserved score. The "newbie lady" was exactly correct, the words associated with the number score are there for a reason. Vomit and above average are not the same.

So .... You see my point? Like I said...what she said was a good point--- which is what you are saying. Not to mention. I think I actually said I scored lower on that than an 8... so whats your point?


Having been to 6 different CBJ trainig classes now I can tell you KCBS didn't teach you to use your heart in judging.

You are lying or mistaken because you were not there at mine. They didn't use those words. If you would like.. I could name the trainer and specifically quote what was said. Not the Master Judge, the trainer on Thursday, Feb 27.

at 2:52 he said

"Another thing, please consider your scores on appearance. These guys do their best to present to you a great presentation. But it only counts a small percentage. And remember what I said about garnish. Unless it looks like someone vomited on the entry and turned it in, a score of 7 or below is pretty much going to take them out of the money."


And the "master judge" teaching incorrect mantra should have been pointed out to the KCBS Rep.

Sorry I ain't doing that. Let someone else with more experience in the KCBS way do that. Why would someone report a MJ to the person who taught the same thing in his class? Sounds like you are more upset with me keeping my mouth shut instead of creating a big problem like some yankee at a bbq.... oh.... I digress

Look you are missing the point... as a competitor I guess you have to choose. You want your new judges (can you imagine a person that never cooked judging?) thumping people with 4 or 5s or kinda washing their scores in the 8 or 9 zone. Let them get some experience.

Comment cards are intended to be used to provide usefull information for scores given to cook teams. As explained in the CBJ class and on the judges CD a comment card for a high score is not nesessary as the score itself is an indicater of their entry.

I was explained that it could be used for good or bad entries. Once again, you were not there. I used it for excellent to almost excellent entries. To let the cook know I think he/she s going in the rght direction or need minor adjustment. NOW THAT I THINK OF IT.... YOU ARE TOTALLY MISTAKEN because there are check boxes FOR good comments. So why the hell would they put that there. Sorry, i defer to people actually teaching the class other than YOU. Great.... now I am defending KCBS


An explanation of why the judge gave a 5 or 6 is much more appreciated than a slang encrypted high five to a cook team.


Having witnessed your days long rebuttles before I won't be baited by revisiting this thread nor do I expect you will change your way of judging a KCBS contest, I just thought the rest of the judging pool should not be soured by thinking your process was correct.


Least you think this is a personal attack it is not, my only goal was to highlight your incorrect use of the KCBS CBJ training that you paid for. There are several other members of the KCBS CBJ Committe that frequent this forum and I would encourage them to weigh in also.
Ed

"Lest" you mean. Look your first line is something about me not paying attention then you go on to say something about me not hearing what i am hearing. I am planning a big article in the Houston Chronicle about KCBS. Sort of a "Here's what was happening that is more significant than the Rodeo." They liked my stuff on Killens so they are paying me to write for them. It is intended still to be a positive article and I have made an effort to keep a record of the class to prevent anything from becoming an issue such as what you are raising (they never said that). Now I also will use your own words here in a public forum to rebut that to give the article a bit more depth... kind of showing who KCBS people are and how serious they are. And that its better to welcome them in than fight them.


Sounds like we will have to let the record show won't we. If anyone wants to challenge what was said and why in the class... go ahead. I have the ultimate proof.

To extend remarks... once again... though I knew there were entries that deserved a much lower score, and even though I actually wrote the precise reason this guy did for why judging an 8 for something that is more like a 6 is bad for the process.... since lowest scores are thrown out anyway... another part brought up in the class but I can't remember what precise minutes and second to go looking for it... maybe its in the final hour, I'll have to check, but the teacher said, why kill a competitor with a sore so low that it will be thrown out anyway?

So I heeded the advice given to me by the teacher... and master judges as well.

One thing is this was a first time event. And I bet that was why the class was run the way it was. No mention of "consider the score below a 7 on the impact of a competitor" in the judges meeting before the judging. But that was certainly an issue with the MJ Phil, who was kind enough to even tell me about how even a 7 was not right though I am not sure he saw my score.




Look, like I said I liked the class, the people and the event. I enjoyed what KCBS had to offer. But I can damn sure show you what was said was said.

I have seen MANY examples on this forum of anger toward KCBS in their way of doing things and many examples of people who take it all a bit too damn seriously. My thread here was to explain my experience - a good one, with factual information and really don't think some guy a few hundred miles away is going to go up against me who was actually there and has a record of it.

Plus.... you can't r won't read. Probably because you lack the stamina to read one of my long exhausting posts, are expressing you don;t like to read my long posts, so admittedly you must have skimmed and started to comment before you got the gist of what I was saying. Which was... for a new contest, and a new KCBS contest in a world TEXAS that has a historical hatred for KCBS, with mostly IBCA cooks... and being new to the KCBS process myself, and being told to temper my ratings BOTH in training and on the floor... In was not going to be the ******* who would thump these cooks with 6 and 4s BECAUSE everything was as new as I was.

You see I would like to have KCBS penetrate my state more. Odd huh? So I was not going to be the dude that soured the new competitors on the KCBS process. If I went to Sams of Bedford would I do that... no. But the purpose of this was to show how KCBS is not such a bad entity.



Congrats on KCBS growing further in our state and I am glad I was part of it. If the TRUTH I spoke is of least concern the maybe they should have told me, "what I am about to say is not for the record." I also don;t think that it was such a bad thing.

 

[Pitmaster T]

http://www.divaherself.com/newcommentcard.jpg

Look at the card. You will note is does have entries for good comments. I should think that a competitor would like to know what was right and what if anything needed improvement. Once again, i defer to the actual source instead of YOU.

I think one of my cards had everything in check as good except "too salty" in which I added the comment that I "loved where they were going with this, really funky, some may say there is too much cumin but I think if you take the salt down the cumin won't be so prominent - otherwise take my money please!" Then I drew a smiley face... which I am sure will torment your KCBS sensibilities somehow.

 

[Burnt at Both Endz]

It was my understanding that KCBS went to the "power point" presentation so there would be a more uniform judging class/standard for teaching pupils?

Maybe it was a wasted effort on their part by the sounds of it.:roll:

 

[Pitmaster T]

You can power point all you want. But people also pick up things audibly. Maybe the Master judge predated the power points.

The power point was only a few slides... the class was much longer.... so what do you think was said.

Don't shoot the messenger. I did what I was advised to do. It sounds like people are more in a tissy that I am saying the unsayable? Sheesh. I had no idea y'all would be so upset. Like I said... say something is off the record before saying it.

I am not the kind of person to stand up in a class and say "what you said contradicts what your rules say."

I am quiet in forums like that. Especially if I am observing. I like to get the lay of the land. Give me a few contests and I will be more comfortable. Which is sort of the answer I sought with all of this. Why did they say for us to re-consider giving scores below a 7 (in class) and 8 (from the master judge) when veteran members (like Model Maker) and the ones I saw and talked to... have no problem doing it.

I refer back again to my original post where I mentioned the actual scoring description of a 7... if 7 is "above average" then what is the problem with giving a 7?

 

[Burnt at Both Endz]

Yep, judge long enough and you'll never want to cook a KCBS contest.

Most new judges are eager to learn, it's just who teaches them that causes the problems you pointed out.

If you were a judge in any other sport, there would be guidance, instead of a power point and vague "you need to be when 2 of the table average" .

Oh well!

 

[Pitmaster T]

It was my understanding that KCBS went to the "power point" presentation so there would be a more uniform judging class/standard for teaching pupils?

Maybe it was a wasted effort on their part by the sounds of it.:roll:

I was thinking on this. And on this I am only speculating not making a charge because remember... i was thoroughly pleased with the experience AND saw the things I described as more of an amusement rather than some big criticism. They are essentially trying to make something subjective/objective - then insist its subjectively objective. ALL BBQ Judging has that to contend with.

It could also be that the KCBS organizer was caught between a rock and a hard place. The teacher was the organizer. The organizer was the teacher. So... if there are things that the organizer needs to accomplish, such as making sure this KCBS contest deep in TEXAS IBCA territory has a positive taste with competitors (which is what the dang thing is for anyway--- they are the ones paying the fees and putting thier heart into it), competitors that are curious about KCBS process and not have judges with NO CARD yet whacking them in the knees cuz they don;t like cilantro... well I see his dilemma. A very thin line to walk. Both organizer and class teacher.

 

[Pitmaster T]

By the way... love your name.

 

[Pole D]

First I want to say that as a cook I appreciate the time that judges put in and both the positive and negative comments (constructive criticism) that they leave on the cards.

As a certified judge, the training class I was at was a little weak. The biggest problem I had was that there was not a true definition of what KCBS bbq is and what it should taste like. Appearance was covered and we went over what is allowed in the box and what isn't. Tenderness was self explanatory and some tips were given to determine tenderness. Taste was a simple "if you like it its good, if you don't its not". Well not crap but I can tell you as a cook you try to hit a certain profile and not necessarily what you like.

In my class we were told that when we are judging we should keep in mind the expense and time cooks put into a competition. I appreciate that but at the same time great is great and crap is crap regardless of how much money or time you put into and it should be judged as what it is.

 

[mobow]

As a judge who occasionally cooks I appreciate you scoring higher till you get some experience. I usually hate cooking a contest that has a judging class just before the contest due to the sporadic scoring. Keep judging. Keep learning. Keep giving it your best effort. Keith

 

[peterz]

I have judged 9 comps last year but I never seen "vomit" as a score or sample =)
Maybe I need to look at the score card little closer next time =)

 

[Pitmaster T]

I have judged 9 comps last year but I never seen "vomit" as a score or sample =)
Maybe I need to look at the score card little closer next time =)

Yep.... 1 dq, 2 inedible (I assume that's like raw), 3 Bad, 4 poor, 5 below average, 6, Average, 7 above average, 8 very good, 9 excellent.

No vomit... of course... if there were, we would be judging what if Myron Mixon's stuff was vomited up and someone else's.

I thought the lady had a good point... if you feel strongly enough to tell us (or guilt us) into scoring above a 7, then your card should be changed to have only 9 through 7. or excellent, very good and one number for above average and vomit.

Thanks to those that agree. I could tell what the promoters and Master judges wanted... they just didn't want a bunch of newbies bad scores to have to explain. I was not going to be "that guy."

I also agree with it. New judges need to consider their newness. Me included. One of things I had to keep from letting me impact my judging was considering my own bbq. I didn't brag about what I had done. I didn't even comment to the others beyond one entry, a brisket, in which they were trying to figure out what the odd taste was (I said it had a stewed tomato broth flavor added. I was not really interested in their opinion and since they were sort of self absorbed in their own discussions I was sure they were not interested in mine.

Its also how funny how stringent the rules were for the experienced until people relaxed a bit then they were all like..."mmmm" and "oh yeah!" and even one "we have a winner."

Oh Jesus... I know someone is going to **** a brick and come in here and quote the manual and say it never happened because the manual says it can't but that's what happened.

So in that, I saw that KCBS was no different than half a dozen IBCA comps that get judged. KCBS in Texas is nothing to be scared of. They try and set standards and some people follow them, some don't, you can't possibly catch everything, you can't just throw judges out for minor infractions when you have no one to replace them with.... I think KCBS tries its best and did a great job.

 

[EMTTLC]

What this post points out is that KCBS's next step in the evolution of competition needs to be a system of creating more uniformity in judging. I cooked a 672 last year and came in 20th out of 25 during a weekend when there were a dozen comps across the the country. That score would have been the GC at one of the comps that weekend, RGC at two, and only out of the top five at one other comp. Some regions have somehow adopted 7-9 scoring system, others the 4-8 scale, and still others the 2-9 scale.

In the current system a judge can leave a competition thinking he is the greatest judge to walk the face of the earth, when in reality he was the guy who knocked a half dozen teams out of the money because he was too critical. He judges 30 contests, becomes a "Master", and now everyone thinks he's a great judge. Not necessarily so, he's just done it more than some others.

When the contest is over, a judge needs to be able to see how he scored, compared to those at his table. The guy who is giving 5's & 6's when everyone else is giving 8's & 9's on an entry would see that he is way off base, as would the guy who constantly gives high scores when everyone else is giving mid range score. The only people who leave a contest with a decent knowledge of who is doing a good job or a poor job is the table captain, and there is very little they can do about it.