Is the nature of the northeast BBQ Judge ruining the appeal of New England Contests?

[markG]

I finally took a CBJ class a few weeks ago and there was no mention of where to start scoring, but one of the slides called a 5 "average". To many of the people in my class that have never cooked or judged before I think that they would start at a 5 and go from there.

I think that the class needs to be standardized for sure. I also think that the way that judges are seated needs to be standardized as well. Bill Minihan from New England does a great statistical analysis of scores that points our "tables of death" and "angel tables" and how they help and hurt winners and losers. Personally, I think that they should number each judge seat and the judges should draw pills to see where they are going to sit.

All of that said, it occurs to me that most of the time, the top teams rise to the top almost every week. They are doing something right that makes judges happy. I would like to know what it is!

 

[djqualls]

I was very vocal about this subject during the election process and was promptly sent back to the sidelines by the majority of voters which presumably are judges.



Good luck with whatever.

 

[Skip]

I like you better when you disagree with everyone. Skip, are you getting soft?

Probably :grin:

 

[Bubba]

Before you can start tracking the averages of the judges scoring with the intention of seating them to avoid high and low tables. You first have to figure out how to average the product (teams) going to the judges. A idea is that you send 2 high quality teams 2 medium quality teams and 2 low quality teams to the table together. You could do this based on TOY points for the past year to start then progress to the current year. I believe that it can work

 

[BasicPatrick]

We cook mostly in New England with a few outside New England.

It is clear to me that scores are clearly higher outside of New England/upststate NY.

That being said I really think this issue is a bit of a red herring. As a cook my responsibility is to develop food that will win in the contests that I cook. Any time I spend on this issue is time better spent working on improving my food.

The low New England judging scale has nothing to do with the TOD, TOA and re education issues.

 

[DivineSwine-LI]

I will say I have received straight 9's from one judge and 3's from another on the same box. Maybe I had judges from the North and South. If it doesn't effect the TOY I don't foresee a problem.

 

[ModelMaker]

I was very vocal about this subject during the election process and was promptly sent back to the sidelines by the majority of voters which presumably are judges.



Good luck with whatever.

No, I think a little of that (I'll staighten out those judges) attitude is what sent you to the sidelines.

"Good luck with whatever"

This is what I'll remember for future runs for BOD...
Ed

 

[Skip]

Before you can start tracking the averages of the judges scoring with the intention of seating them to avoid high and low tables. You first have to figure out how to average the product (teams) going to the judges. A idea is that you send 2 high quality teams 2 medium quality teams and 2 low quality teams to the table together. You could do this based on TOY points for the past year to start then progress to the current year. I believe that it can work

I think FBA already does track judges. Now don't quote me but I thought I heard they would track marking relative to the table and categorize judges on three levels and they would try to seat accordingly.

I think the issue with arranging teams on a table is difficult as a good team can have a bad day and visa versa. So this could add a variable that can't be accounted for. As well this could lead to collusion between teams and reps and organizers. We all know our reps to be honorable but why add the chance of collusion.

 

[Skip]

We cook mostly in New England with a few outside New England.

It is clear to me that scores are clearly higher outside of New England/upststate NY.

That being said I really think this issue is a bit of a red herring. As a cook my responsibility is to develop food that will win in the contests that I cook. Any time I spend on this issue is time better spent working on improving my food.

The low New England judging scale has nothing to do with the TOD, TOA and re education issues.

How could different judging protocols be a red herring? How is this distracting or misleading from the original point? Also could you clarify TOD and TOA?

I will pose this question. You develop food that will win contests and 4 judges agree with you yet two others held you to different standards and tanked your food. Fair? Expected? Keeping with the integrity of the sanctioning body? One of the statements in the KCBS mission statement is integrity and one of the few expectation we have of the organization. When you change expectation you hurt integrity and that is what can happen if judges have different directives.

To all those who felt that was me railing against KCBS it wasn't. I am just pointing out how judging inconsistencies can harm the integrity of KCBS or any sanctioning body.

 

[Skip]

I will say I have received straight 9's from one judge and 3's from another on the same box. Maybe I had judges from the North and South. If it doesn't effect the TOY I don't foresee a problem.

If it affects a contest no biggie? Thats not how most competitors feel.

 

[J&B'sBBQ]

I will say I have received straight 9's from one judge and 3's from another on the same box. Maybe I had judges from the North and South. If it doesn't effect the TOY I don't foresee a problem.

Not every team can compete enough to be in the running for TOY, so I must fully disagree with your statement. If it effects that contests outcomes then I do have a problem because it could be my team that is hindered. We only cook 12 or so contests a year, so TOY means nothing to us.

 

[deez butts]

Reading through this thread it seems that KCBS has changed its training/judging procedure multiple times over the years. Be it start at 9, 6 or no start point but 5 is average (when I took the class I was told 6 was average). How does KCBS communicate these changes to judges that have already been certified? Maybe KCBS can post a video at the beginning of every season with the judging/rule changes. Send a blast email to everyone that the rule change/judge procedure video is up and have members (specifically certified judges) check off when they watch the video. At work we have annual training for ethics, code of conduct, classified info cert, export law compliance and a number of other things. We get nag emails until we complete our required training. When a judge signs up for a contest you could then look them up and see if they have watched the annual video. If they haven't, then the rep can show them the video before they judge.

 

[Funtimebbq]

There is a tape played at every KCBS contest at the judges' meeting giving the information all judges are supposed to follow. Also, the new judging cards have a word next to each scoring number telling judges what each number represents according to KCBS.

 

[Bob in Corona]

I wonder if there should be the inclusion of an admonishment such as 'Judge only by the current KCBS rules, Not by rules of the past', or something to that effect.

Bob

 

[CBQ]

BINGO!!!!
Imagine what happens at the Jack, or the Royal, and even the Sam's club finals where judges from all over the country fly in to judge these events!!!

The last 2 years SAMs brought in judges from all the regions and distributed them so all regions were represented at each table. It seemed to work as the regional distribution of winners was more even.

The NE does have low scores - but given the number of people on here complaining about KCBS being a 3 score system, maybe the problem is some regions are scoring too high.

I'm a big advocate of judge tracking and seating to balance scoring - but that has to happen at a contest level and is different from the regional question Skip raised.

Since it doesn't impact TOY, the low scores don't really bother me. Plus it's fun to see big name teams come to the northeast expecting easy pickings and get handed a bunch of 4s. :Becky:

 

[Robert]

No, I think a little of that (I'll staighten out those judges) attitude is what sent you to the sidelines.

"Good luck with whatever"

This is what I'll remember for future runs for BOD...
Ed

Ed,

I'm having a little trouble comprehending the above statements. Are going to hold that against David in the future? To commit to work for a solution to a problem. Really?
As this thread points out and many other threads before this one have as well, there is a problem with inconsistent judging across KCBS as a whole. Cooks are on the receiving end of it and all we can do is shake our head and move on to the next cook-off. Judges, on the other hand, are on the giving side of the issue and get their feathers ruffled for being put under the microscope.
I had a chance to engage in conversation with a master judge at a cook-off to years ago. This was after judging and he walked up to our site. Noting that he was a master judge, we began to ask him questions just to get a mind set of his experience. We ask him what he sees in boxes such as all thighs, legs, wings, combinations, spares versus baby backs, pulled slice, burnt ends, he elaborates on those items but then tells me something that just floors me. He tells me that he is looking for creativity in a chicken thigh box. If all he sees is just six thighs in a box it is automatically given an 8 on appearance. As I picked my jaw up off the ground, I asked him if creativity was a category? He asked "what do you mean, I'm talking about appearance". I said, "exactly, appearance. You've created a fourth category". He looked at me as puzzled as a pig staring at a clock and then said "whatever" and walks off. I turn to my teammates and say "boys, you just saw the east German judge right there".

So while you may not comprehend David's comment of "Good luck with whatever", I know where he is coming from. I know that judging is highly subjective, but, the judging criteria needs to be the same across the board.

I voted for David and was sad to see him not elected. I think he would have been a good board member.

Robert

 

[Burnt at Both Endz]

Ed,

I'm having a little trouble comprehending the above statements. Are going to hold that against David in the future? To commit to work for a solution to a problem. Really?
As this thread points out and many other threads before this one have as well, there is a problem with inconsistent judging across KCBS as a whole. Cooks are on the receiving end of it and all we can do is shake our head and move on to the next cook-off. Judges, on the other hand, are on the giving side of the issue and get their feathers ruffled for being put under the microscope.
I had a chance to engage in conversation with a master judge at a cook-off to years ago. This was after judging and he walked up to our site. Noting that he was a master judge, we began to ask him questions just to get a mind set of his experience. We ask him what he sees in boxes such as all thighs, legs, wings, combinations, spares versus baby backs, pulled slice, burnt ends, he elaborates on those items but then tells me something that just floors me. He tells me that he is looking for creativity in a chicken thigh box. If all he sees is just six thighs in a box it is automatically given an 8 on appearance. As I picked my jaw up off the ground, I asked him if creativity was a category? He asked "what do you mean, I'm talking about appearance". I said, "exactly, appearance. You've created a fourth category". He looked at me as puzzled as a pig staring at a clock and then said "whatever" and walks off. I turn to my teammates and say "boys, you just saw the east German judge right there".

So while you may not comprehend David's comment of "Good luck with whatever", I know where he is coming from. I know that judging is highly subjective, but, the judging criteria needs to be the same across the board.

I voted for David and was sad to see him not elected. I think he would have been a good board member.

Robert

You have to understand Ed, who has stated before, the solution to better judging is "the cook just needs to learn to cook better"....:twitch:

 

[ModelMaker]

I don't actually remember saying that exactly, but because the words are in "quotes" I must have. However I'll stand by the sentiment. How else can the same quality teams win week after week? It's because they cook better than the teams wanting to blame the judge.

I totaly agree there have been various ways people were taught to judge at different classes over the years. Today all classes world wide are taught via a power point presentation followed by a printed text for the instructor. Now any changes in rule or procedure are added or replaced in unison.
What to do about all the previous teachings? I know KCBS has a continuing education review in the wings that will address current information aimed at these judges.

As to Mr. Qualls parting statement, it struck me as a kid with his hands in his pockets kicking at the dirt with his foot, just before heading home with his ball.....
Ed

 

[Jorge]

Ed,

I'm having a little trouble comprehending the above statements. Are going to hold that against David in the future? To commit to work for a solution to a problem. Really?
As this thread points out and many other threads before this one have as well, there is a problem with inconsistent judging across KCBS as a whole. Cooks are on the receiving end of it and all we can do is shake our head and move on to the next cook-off. Judges, on the other hand, are on the giving side of the issue and get their feathers ruffled for being put under the microscope.
I had a chance to engage in conversation with a master judge at a cook-off to years ago. This was after judging and he walked up to our site. Noting that he was a master judge, we began to ask him questions just to get a mind set of his experience. We ask him what he sees in boxes such as all thighs, legs, wings, combinations, spares versus baby backs, pulled slice, burnt ends, he elaborates on those items but then tells me something that just floors me. He tells me that he is looking for creativity in a chicken thigh box. If all he sees is just six thighs in a box it is automatically given an 8 on appearance. As I picked my jaw up off the ground, I asked him if creativity was a category? He asked "what do you mean, I'm talking about appearance". I said, "exactly, appearance. You've created a fourth category". He looked at me as puzzled as a pig staring at a clock and then said "whatever" and walks off. I turn to my teammates and say "boys, you just saw the east German judge right there".

So while you may not comprehend David's comment of "Good luck with whatever", I know where he is coming from. I know that judging is highly subjective, but, the judging criteria needs to be the same across the board.

I voted for David and was sad to see him not elected. I think he would have been a good board member.

Robert

If I didn't like you I'd suggest that Scottie and Todd make you their next board victim, err nominee. For those that don't know Robert I'd suggest listening when he has something to say. I may not always agree, but I'm always glad that I listened.

You have to understand Ed, who has stated before, the solution to better judging is "the cook just needs to learn to cook better"....:twitch:

In a lot of cases, there is quite a bit of truth to that. Judges have kicked me in the junk, and given me gifts that my food didn't deserve on that day. More often than not they get it right, and the solution is that some days I just needed to cook better. That especially applies to the cook that turns in a creosote coated turd that kills the table for every entry that follows his, because the judges need 6+ entries to get that taste out of their mouth no matter how many crackers they eat.

 

[goodsmokebbq]

The last 2 years SAMs brought in judges from all the regions and distributed them so all regions were represented at each table. It seemed to work as the regional distribution of winners was more even.

The NE does have low scores - but given the number of people on here complaining about KCBS being a 3 score system, maybe the problem is some regions are scoring too high.

I'm a big advocate of judge tracking and seating to balance scoring - but that has to happen at a contest level and is different from the regional question Skip raised.

Since it doesn't impact TOY, the low scores don't really bother me. Plus it's fun to see big name teams come to the northeast expecting easy pickings and get handed a bunch of 4s. :Becky:

I do think some areas are not exercising enough of the scoring scale. You wind up condensing teams into a very small scoring space which highlights some of the variability we see with judging.