History of BBQ questions

[horizon23]

There have recently been a proliferation of articles arguing that BBQ is a form of cultural appropriation based on the premise that it was the exclusive domain of slaves in the antebellum south. Is this true? Did working class whites not BBQ and contribute to its development (it has been argued preference for pork butt in Western Carolinas and the creation of ketchup and mustard based sauces is a German influence, and the original mop sauce is based on a old English sauce of butter, salt, cayenne pepper and black pepper). I'm somewhat of a amateur food historian so I am curious.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smoking/comments/kd4x1o/can_white_people_smoke_meats_without_engaging_in/

https://www.republic-online.com/new...cle_113b15e2-f1d4-11e9-8631-c353b4b1f564.html

 

[Gore]

I think the key word here is exclusive and how narrowly you wish to define BBQ. I have seen different styles of BBQ throughout the world. Let's face it, cooking meat over fire has been around for at least a few hundred thousand years and I am sure that cooking it slowly in the fashion of BBQ has been around for almost as long. Salt is used universally. Vinegar has been used as a preservative in many cultures, while the tomato and pepper you mention are of course from the New World. Certainly slaves in the antebellum south contributed immensely to what we recognize as our BBQ traditions and especially to the flavors we have grown accustomed, but there are many roots and influences, even as you point out, and don't forget to throw in Spanish, South American, and Native Americans when you talk about influences on our particular version of BBQ. I would find it impossible to give anyone exclusive rights to something that has been used, invented and reinvented countless times over a few hundred thousand years.

Since you mentioned Carolina BBQ, I'm just going to post a few pics of some whole hog BBQ:

This one from Segovia, Spain:

Such cochinillo are cooked in an oven which is not too different from current Big Green Eggs, only much , much larger. Such ovens go back many centuries.

Argentina, where beef, pig, lamb have been cooked in this fashion:

This one from Rodney Scott's BBQ in South Carolina:

This one from Hawaii:

Philippines:

and Vietnam:

In many Asian cultures such roasted pigs are traditional celebratory meals.

It is hard for me to accept an argument that these are fundamentally different. In any case, discoveries can be made at different times and at different places.

 

[drunkenmeatfist]

It seems apparent that the Vietnamese win the award for most efficient placement of the roasting spit.

 

[TC Smoke & Que]

John, Man has been cooking over fire forever, and different cultures always find different variations in the local venue. Even what we consider BBQ here in the United States is usually a copy of another region's style and flavoring. Here on this site there are so many presented examples of that; that someone in Carolina wants to try to do a cook from what someone did in say Texas.
When I hear the word "Appropriation", I understand the underlying intent, and turn the page.
The Art of The Que is a shared experience that created this great Brotherhood with a common interest in good food and Fellowship. The "History" of such is exciting to read and understand, and learn from. But, all that really matters is the Fellowship of the Brethren!

 

[JD08]

It wasn't just slaves that got the tougher cuts of meat that took longer to make tender, it was also poor people who couldn't afford better cuts.

Look at the etymology of the word barbecue for additional evidence.

 

[SirPorkaLot]

There have recently been a proliferation of articles arguing that BBQ is a form of cultural appropriation based on the premise that it was the exclusive domain of slaves in the antebellum south. Is this true? Did working class whites not BBQ and contribute to its development (it has been argued preference for pork butt in Western Carolinas and the creation of ketchup and mustard based sauces is a German influence, and the original mop sauce is based on a old English sauce of butter, salt, cayenne pepper and black pepper). I'm somewhat of a amateur food historian so I am curious.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smoking/comments/kd4x1o/can_white_people_smoke_meats_without_engaging_in/

https://www.republic-online.com/new...cle_113b15e2-f1d4-11e9-8631-c353b4b1f564.html

I see you’re new here and from NC.

Welcome!

11 years ago, I was also new here and from NC, I can feel exactly where you are coming from.

In NC we tend to think that the bbq universe is centered and completely rotates around NC.
Coming into this international society of BBQ enthusiasts that aren’t necessarily aware of the NC centric thought process can be quite jarring.

I came in with guns a blazing, bound and determined to defend NC’s place as the BBQ center of the universe, only to find how much I really enjoyed learning from others here what all BBQ could actually be (believe it or not, it’s more than pork..a shocker I know)

Don’t get me wrong, I’m still a strong proponent of NC BBQ and try to share what I know about it with others to help them, like they have helped me.

Enjoy your stay here and keep an open mind. The world of BBQ is a fascinating one and there is so many more styles out there than anyone can imagine.

The definition of BBQ for me used to be quite narrow and I was proud of that.
I’m now very proud of how much that definition has expanded for me personally and I am excited to learn something new each chance I get.

 

[horizon23]

I think the key word here is exclusive and how narrowly you wish to define BBQ. I have seen different styles of BBQ throughout the world. Let's face it, cooking meat over fire has been around for at least a few hundred thousand years and I am sure that cooking it slowly in the fashion of BBQ has been around for almost as long. Salt is used universally. Vinegar has been used as a preservative in many cultures, while the tomato and pepper you mention are of course from the New World. Certainly slaves in the antebellum south contributed immensely to what we recognize as our BBQ traditions and especially to the flavors we have grown accustomed, but there are many roots and influences, even as you point out, and don't forget to throw in Spanish, South American, and Native Americans when you talk about influences on our particular version of BBQ. I would find it impossible to give anyone exclusive rights to something that has been used, invented and reinvented countless times over a few hundred thousand years.

Since you mentioned Carolina BBQ, I'm just going to post a few pics of some whole hog BBQ:

This one from Segovia, Spain:

Such cochinillo are cooked in an oven which is not too different from current Big Green Eggs, only much , much larger. Such ovens go back many centuries.

Argentina, where beef, pig, lamb have been cooked in this fashion:

This one from Rodney Scott's BBQ in South Carolina:

This one from Hawaii:

Philippines:

and Vietnam:

In many Asian cultures such roasted pigs are traditional celebratory meals.

It is hard for me to accept an argument that these are fundamentally different. In any case, discoveries can be made at different times and at different places.

True. I made another thread on different styles of BBQ from all over the world and spit roasting animals or slowly cooking them over fire is probably universal.

 

[horizon23]

John, Man has been cooking over fire forever, and different cultures always find different variations in the local venue. Even what we consider BBQ here in the United States is usually a copy of another region's style and flavoring. Here on this site there are so many presented examples of that; that someone in Carolina wants to try to do a cook from what someone did in say Texas.
When I hear the word "Appropriation", I understand the underlying intent, and turn the page.
The Art of The Que is a shared experience that created this great Brotherhood with a common interest in good food and Fellowship. The "History" of such is exciting to read and understand, and learn from. But, all that really matters is the Fellowship of the Brethren!

I agree with you on the word appropriation.

I think if we are talking about American BBQ then everybody has contributed. From Native Americans, the Spanish, early English colonists, slaves and later German and Czechs. BBQ should be bringing us together not dividing us.

If we are talking about BBQ as low and slow meat smoking then appropriation becomes even more silly. First "people" to do that were probably didn't even belong to our species. Were probably some Neanderthals roasting some wolly mammoths. Either way it is silly especially when it comes to something as simple as cooking over fire. AGree with you

 

[horizon23]

I see you’re new here and from NC.

Welcome!

11 years ago, I was also new here and from NC, I can feel exactly where you are coming from.

In NC we tend to think that the bbq universe is centered and completely rotates around NC.
Coming into this international society of BBQ enthusiasts that aren’t necessarily aware of the NC centric thought process can be quite jarring.

I came in with guns a blazing, bound and determined to defend NC’s place as the BBQ center of the universe, only to find how much I really enjoyed learning from others here what all BBQ could actually be (believe it or not, it’s more than pork..a shocker I know)

Don’t get me wrong, I’m still a strong proponent of NC BBQ and try to share what I know about it with others to help them, like they have helped me.

Enjoy your stay here and keep an open mind. The world of BBQ is a fascinating one and there is so many more styles out there than anyone can imagine.

The definition of BBQ for me used to be quite narrow and I was proud of that.
I’m now very proud of how much that definition has expanded for me personally and I am excited to learn something new each chance I get.

NC whole hog is obviously my favorite but my mom is TX German so the Central Texas style is almost as dear to me.

 

[horizon23]

It wasn't just slaves that got the tougher cuts of meat that took longer to make tender, it was also poor people who couldn't afford better cuts.

Look at the etymology of the word barbecue for additional evidence.

True. The cuisine of slaves, poor whites and Native Americans was probably similar. And whole hog doesn't seem something only slaves would do. Its very universal.

 

[SweetHeatBBQnSC]

John and Gore are all over it. (Even though John mentions NC and we all know it was SC where it began haha). U.S. BBQ started well before the U.S. and slaves in the U.S. for that matter. It was in the 1500's. The Spanish brought over the ideas of roasting and cooking over coals and the SC people *Native Americans*(probably NC in your mind if you are from there just depends on your bias haha) had a supply of hogs (whole hogs) and so it started. I love SC que and Texas que and would hate someone to ever make me say one was better than the other.

 

[Gore]

It wasn't just slaves that got the tougher cuts of meat that took longer to make tender, it was also poor people who couldn't afford better cuts.

I have heard this many times and I think it is one of those things somebody says and it sounds good and everyone repeats it. It never really made a great deal of sense to me. First of all, we're talking pigs in the Carolinas where all this supposedly got started. What are the tougher cuts of the pig? The only ones I can think of are the legs, the parts that are traditionally turned into ham, not exactly what we consider to be BBQ. Second, BBQ tradition in the Carolinas is whole hog. They are not separating out any bad cuts of meat in this method. The other traditional cut of BBQ is the butt. I've eaten a lot of pig, and I don't think of this as a bad cut at all. It tastes just fine cut into steaks and grilled.

 

[Aggie12]

It seems apparent that the Vietnamese win the award for most efficient placement of the roasting spit.

Glad I wasn’t the only one to notice that. I was quickly browsing through the pictures and went past it, did a double take and had to scroll back up to confirm it. Haha. :butt:

 

[JD08]

I have heard this many times and I think it is one of those things somebody says and it sounds good and everyone repeats it. It never really made a great deal of sense to me. First of all, we're talking pigs in the Carolinas where all this supposedly got started. What are the tougher cuts of the pig? The only ones I can think of are the legs, the parts that are traditionally turned into ham, not exactly what we consider to be BBQ. Second, BBQ tradition in the Carolinas is whole hog. They are not separating out any bad cuts of meat in this method. The other traditional cut of BBQ is the butt. I've eaten a lot of pig, and I don't think of this as a bad cut at all. It tastes just fine cut into steaks and grilled.

I think that probably applies to the fatty front arm portion on a pig, but abrisket on a cow. The Irish spposedly got corned beef brisket from the Jews in NYc because it was still an affordable cut back then.

Back when chicken wings took off in the late 80's, I had a frine dwho refused to eat them because he felt it was taking food out of the mouths of poor people. Apparently they were the least expensive when he grew up and largely poor people ate them.

 

[Hawklaw]

I agree with you on the word appropriation.

I think if we are talking about American BBQ then everybody has contributed. From Native Americans, the Spanish, early English colonists, slaves and later German and Czechs. BBQ should be bringing us together not dividing us.

If we are talking about BBQ as low and slow meat smoking then appropriation becomes even more silly. First "people" to do that were probably didn't even belong to our species. Were probably some Neanderthals roasting some wolly mammoths. Either way it is silly especially when it comes to something as simple as cooking over fire. AGree with you

I have to imagine mammoth brisket was pretty dang tough - can only speculate how many hours it took to get one tender. And no foil to help get through the stall! :razz:

 

[JEStucker]

Sometimes it's all about the perspective and the spin you can put on the story.
Once upon a time lobster was considered trash and only fit for prisoners and indentured servants. In fact, some prisons were told serving lobster more than 4 times a month was cruel and unusual punishment.
https://firstwefeast.com/eat/2015/03/infographic-lobsters-journey-from-prison-food-to-fine-dining


I think there's a lot of similar history in BBQ... if you think about many of the presently prized BBQ cuts, they would have been considered trash back in the day. Ribs, brisket, tails... tough sinewy cuts with either lots of fat, or just not much meat.

Regardless of where its started, it's earned its place at the table.

 

[IamMadMan]

I researched BBQ for the culinary classes I am asked to teach.

Here is what my searches yielded years ago.... The search for written records can be elusive at best.


The Mayan people were the first to roast small pigs in a pit.

The true beginning to the craft of Barbecue is as mysterious as some of the methods used to prepare it. Since man was first able to harness and control fire, he used it for roasting and cooking of food.

But the origin of the word "Barbecue" is not clearly known. It is widely believed the beginnings occurred with the Caribbean Arawak Indians who placed the meat on a rack made from green wooden sticks called a boucan. This French word came from an Arawakan word meaning a rack, sometimes used for roasting or for cooking things. The food cooked on this wooden rack (boucan) was referred to as Barbacoa - pronounced bar-ba-co (Spanish). The natives taught the visiting sailors the art of barbacoa, thus possibly began the aspects of our fascination of the word “Barbecue” (bar-ba-co / bar-ba-cue).

We know that the French word boucanier was a reference to a person living on the islands of Hispaniola and Tortuga, who were known to hunt and cook wild animals on the boucan. According to the American Heritage Dictionary, the term buccaneer corresponds to the word French word boucanier; we can only surmise that the word Barbecue was derived from the term Barbacoa because there is no written history for the origin of the word “barbecue”.

On May 17, 1540, according to Hudson, they enjoyed another meal cooked on a barbacoa near present day Salisbury, NC: Corn and small animals. (RE: Charles Hudson - Knights of Spain, Warriors of the Sun: Hernando De Soto and the South's Ancient Chiefdoms) In 1755, the word Barbecue was first published in A Dictionary of the English Language - by Samuel Johnson.

The origins of our barbecue sauce is much more vague;

Some claim that Christopher Columbus brought the sauce back from Hispaniola in the late 1400's, while others say its origins lie in the 17th century American colonies who used the English Brown Sauce. References to a similar type of sauce occur in both English and French literature dated to the late 1700's and early 1800's.

However in 1598, a feast as described by a Dominican missionary, "the meat was mopped with a mixture of lemon juice, salt, and chile peppers". (RE: Texas Monthly May 15, 2013 - by Daniel Vaughn) This sauce eventually found its way to the Carolinas, where the lemon juice was replaced by the more readily available cider vinegar.

The first commercially sold BBQ sauce was made by the Georgia Barbecue Sauce Company in Atlanta, Georgia, the sauce was advertised for sale in January of 1909.

Heinz later released a barbecue sauce in 1940. (Barbecue: The History of an American Institution, University of Alabama Press - Robert F. Moss 2010.)

There are many barbecue sauce types, as there are regional cooking styles. Some barbecue sauce types in the United States can also be traced back to influences from Germans, and other Europeans who immigrated to North America. However the thinner vinegar sauces were variations of the citrus juice and peppers used by the Spanish recorded in 1598.

Modern barbecue sauce possibly came to the United States in the early 1700's with the French colonization of the America's. In the 1700's, stories of cooking meat over fire at large political gatherings were recorded. Later, it was the southern influences that made cooking pork very popular.

As America expanded westward, Midwest cattle drives created another regional favorite.

 

[Gore]

Sometimes it's all about the perspective and the spin you can put on the story.
Once upon a time lobster was considered trash and only fit for prisoners and indentured servants. In fact, some prisons were told serving lobster more than 4 times a month was cruel and unusual punishment.
https://firstwefeast.com/eat/2015/03/infographic-lobsters-journey-from-prison-food-to-fine-dining

I have a Canadian friend who used to throw her lobster sandwiches in the garbage on her way to school because she would be embarrassed if her friends found out she was eating such trash. She's in her 40s. That's not that long ago!

 

[Monkey Uncle]

The Mayan people were the first to roast small pigs in a pit.

Interesting. I presume they were peccaries, which is the only species of pig that is native to the new world? I would have thought the first people to roast pigs would have been Asians or Europeans, who have been living alongside the wild ancestors of domestic pigs for tens of thousands of years.

 

[IamMadMan]

Interesting. I presume they were peccaries, which is the only species of pig that is native to the new world? I would have thought the first people to roast pigs would have been Asians or Europeans, who have been living alongside the wild ancestors of domestic pigs for tens of thousands of years.

My basic research quoted above was only limited to where BBQ in the New World had it's roots; it's the basis for introduction of my "smoking meat" culinary classes.


Yes, peccaries were used for food in the Mayan Culture. Peccaries evolved in Europe about 30 million years ago and spread across much of the world. In the Old World, peccaries went extinct, but they survived in North America. About three million years ago, peccaries spread into South America.


I don't think the roasting of meat can be attributed to any single culture, as "Horizon 23" stated above; "we should look at the Neanderthal as the first to cook with fire."

Archeologists have confirmed that since man was first able to harness and control fire, he used it for roasting and cooking of food. All before the recording of any attempts of ethnic civilization.

When I was researching the curing of meat for another class, I found that The domestication of pigs for use as food in China dates back to about 4900 B.C.. By 1500 B.C. the domestication of pigs had made its way into Europe.

According to written records we know that in 1493 Christopher Columbus had eight pigs on board when he left Spain for the new world and landed in Cuba.

In 1539 Hernando de Soto the explorer transported 13 pigs to the new world and released them in what we know today as Florida. It is believed that these pigs became the breeding stock for the pigs in the United States. By the 17th century, many American colonists were raising domesticated pigs.

But I thought the OP was talking about BBQ in the fledgling colonial nation; If I misread his inquiry, I apologize.