Exact instructions for judges... :-D

[DawgPhan]

Does any bbq organization define taste? If so, can someone post them here so we can discuss

I think KCBS is the gold standard and should be doing what they think is right for competition bbq. Just because no one does it, doesnt mean they shouldnt.

KCBS should 100% be defining exactly what BBQ should taste and look like as well as further clarifying the tenderness and cuts.

 

[thesemicullen]

I think KCBS is the gold standard and should be doing what they think is right for competition bbq. Just because no one does it, doesnt mean they shouldnt.

KCBS should 100% be defining exactly what BBQ should taste and look like as well as further clarifying the tenderness and cuts.

I completely and utterly disagree and would resign from KCBS in disgust were it to do so. The LAST thing I or most of the barbecuing world want is to have a bunch of automotons trying to make exactly the same thing. The inventiveness and creativity I find at each contest I judge is one of the main reasons I love the KCBS community so much.

 

[Fat Freddy]

A clarification was made that "6" isn't to be assigned for average competition bbq, but rather, for average bbq as compared against our lifetime experience eating bbq anywhere.

So how would average COMPETITION BBQ be scored? Would it be considered an 8 with a 7 for bad and 9 for excellent. That kinda seems thats how it already is and thats why so much debate on judging.

I found my book and notes from my judging class back in 2010 taught by Mike and Theresa Lake. Maybe i misunderstood them, maybe I wrote something down wrong. But specifically in my notes it says "a 6 is for average competition bbq. Do not compare with anything else like other entries, resteraunt(sp), or backyard. Each entry is on its own merits"

By what you are describing it IS comparing average comp vs. average lifetime eating and you are not supposed to compare. If a 6 wasnt meant to be for competition then why would KCBS, a competition organization, list it as a possible score?

 

[thesemicullen]

I think KCBS is the gold standard and should be doing what they think is right for competition bbq. Just because no one does it, doesnt mean they shouldnt.

KCBS should 100% be defining exactly what BBQ should taste and look like as well as further clarifying the tenderness and cuts.

So how would average COMPETITION BBQ be scored? Would it be considered an 8 with a 7 for bad and 9 for excellent. That kinda seems thats how it already is and thats why so much debate on judging.

I found my book and notes from my judging class back in 2010 taught by Mike and Theresa Lake. Maybe i misunderstood them, maybe I wrote something down wrong. But specifically in my notes it says "a 6 is for average competition bbq. Do not compare with anything else like other entries, resteraunt(sp), or backyard. Each entry is on its own merits"

By what you are describing it IS comparing average comp vs. average lifetime eating and you are not supposed to compare. If a 6 wasnt meant to be for competition then why would KCBS, a competition organization, list it as a possible score?

I think the reason you see so many 7s, 8s, and 9s is because the majority of entries we see are 7s, 8s, and 9s. The great majority of stuff I judge is really good. I have a hard time judging things below a 7 because very few entries I receive rate that score. However, it is obvious when they do.

The lowest score I EXPECT to give is a 7 because consistency of quality has increased across the board over the past few years. Maybe that means we're giving out scores that are too high now, but it's something I've discussed with a lot of judges in the recent past. Based on my anecdotal evidence, this is my belief.

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

I think KCBS is the gold standard and should be doing what they think is right for competition bbq. Just because no one does it, doesnt mean they shouldnt.

KCBS should 100% be defining exactly what BBQ should taste and look like as well as further clarifying the tenderness and cuts.

KCBS is just another bbq organization. It is by far the largest, but gold standard it is not. I like cooking KCBS, I also like cooking MIM, NEBS, and MBN. If I lived in Georgia I would love to cook GBA. Florida FBA. The point is the moment KCBS defines how BBQ SHOULD TASTE, is the moment it fails

Please tell me how you personally would define taste of bbq.

In fact to prove a point...everyone list it. Taste is different to each taster. Everyone tastes differently, therefore you can not dictate how something should taste...

You would have to supply every team the same meat. The same rub. The same injections, the same sauces, the same cooker, the same wood.

And you as a judge would be tasting the same thing...over, and over, and over. And what's the fun it that

 

[DUBBAGA]

Has there been any discussion with KCBS about this? If every regional group does something similar, but they all teach something a little different I don't know that it would be beneficial.

I don't know what discussions have taken place, and to date I do not have any specifics about what would be contained in the training. I DO KNOW that it is commendable that an organization is attempting to provide the continued education that both the cooks and judges seem to be asking for.

So how would average COMPETITION BBQ be scored? Would it be considered an 8 with a 7 for bad and 9 for excellent. That kinda seems thats how it already is and thats why so much debate on judging.

I found my book and notes from my judging class back in 2010 taught by Mike and Theresa Lake. Maybe i misunderstood them, maybe I wrote something down wrong. But specifically in my notes it says "a 6 is for average competition bbq. Do not compare with anything else like other entries, resteraunt(sp), or backyard. Each entry is on its own merits"

By what you are describing it IS comparing average comp vs. average lifetime eating and you are not supposed to compare. If a 6 wasnt meant to be for competition then why would KCBS, a competition organization, list it as a possible score?

This past weekend I had entries which were 9's and some of the best that I have ever had, and some 4's which were worse than my brother-in-law's cooking.

When judging we are not to compare entries against each other, but it is impossible to assign a score from 2 to 9 without having some reference point to determine which is which. Based on the logic that no comparison is allowed in any manner, it would prohibit any new CBJ from being allowed to judge, as they likely have never tasted true competition bbq in the past, and would therefore be unable to decide what excellent/average/below average/etc really is

 

[carlyle]

What the OP quotes at the beginning of this thread is the verbiage that is on the recording that is a must listen at every contest.

As long as there are human beings involved with judging there will be variabilities in the perception of what an entry tastes like. Just like there are variabilities in each portion of each entry in each box.

There are just a lot of factors that are out of the control of the cook and of the organizer as each judge sits at the table and tries to judge what is presented to him or her.

With the new scoring system, those variabilities and that lack of control are much more visible. IMO

 

[Head Foolz]

I completely agree with TSTP..... The problem with rules is that once you start expanding or clarifying you open up pandora's box. Prime example look at MLB or worse yet NFL, when those sports began to present day rules.

Exception, what is a ball or strike to one umpire is totally different to another. That's the way bbq judging is and should remain.

 

[carlyle]

Hey, we have enough trouble with just BBQ without bringing pro sports into the metaphor mix.

Next thing you know there will be performance enhancing drugs for judges so they can be super tasters!

 

[DUBBAGA]

Next thing you know there will be performance enhancing drugs for judges so they can be super tasters!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supertaster ... I'm Asian :bow:

 

[Fat Freddy]

When judging we are not to compare entries against each other, but it is impossible to assign a score from 2 to 9 without having some reference point to determine which is which. Based on the logic that no comparison is allowed in any manner, it would prohibit any new CBJ from being allowed to judge, as they likely have never tasted true competition bbq in the past, and would therefore be unable to decide what excellent/average/below average/etc really is

We could debate this but truthfully i can tell you are dug in, so I wont try explain my stance.

What i will say however is also the word "preconceived" was used several times in my CBJ class. So if MY instructor has instructed us that a 6 is average COMPETITION BBQ and we should not have preconceived thoughts on bbq and should not compare each entry. And then your instructor wants people to think of a 6 as everyday average BBQ. Then that is a problem period. Whether your instructor is right or mine was right it shouldnt matter. What should matter is that there is a discrepancy in instructors.

 

[DUBBAGA]

We could debate this but truthfully i can tell you are dug in, so I wont try explain my stance.

What i will say however is also the word "preconceived" was used several times in my CBJ class. So if MY instructor has instructed us that a 6 is average COMPETITION BBQ and we should not have preconceived thoughts on bbq and should not compare each entry. And then your instructor wants people to think of a 6 as everyday average BBQ. Then that is a problem period. Whether your instructor is right or mine was right it shouldnt matter. What should matter is that there is a discrepancy in instructors.

Agreed, and this is one of the easiest clarifications that KCBS could make... to specify what is the intended definition of "average"

 

[Smokedelic]

A clarification was made that "6" isn't to be assigned for average competition bbq, but rather, for average bbq as compared against our lifetime experience eating bbq anywhere.

Are these instructions/clarifications coming from KCBS??

I find it curious that the standard for judging competition BBQ would be something other than a judges knowledge base of competition BBQ. I would think any judging scale loses a lot of it's effectiveness if it's not calibrated on what is actually being judged.

 

[DR]

I completely and utterly disagree and would resign from KCBS in disgust were it to do so. The LAST thing I or most of the barbecuing world want is to have a bunch of automotons trying to make exactly the same thing. The inventiveness and creativity I find at each contest I judge is one of the main reasons I love the KCBS community so much.

Well I see your point but at the same time, everyone is already doing pretty much the same thing. When was the last time someone won with a yellow mustard based sauce? Personally I love mustard based sauces on pork and think it has an amazing taste. But I would never try it in a comp because everyone is expecting and using typical tomatoe based or vinegar based sauces but they are all the same color. I would personally love to try the yellow mustard based sauces but know I would never place. This is because it's outside the box and not "normal" as far as judging is concerned.

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

Well I see your point but at the same time, everyone is already doing pretty much the same thing. When was the last time someone won with a yellow mustard based sauce? Personally I love mustard based sauces on pork and think it has an amazing taste. But I would never try it in a comp because everyone is expecting and using typical tomatoe based or vinegar based sauces but they are all the same color. I would personally love to try the yellow mustard based sauces but know I would never place. This is because it's outside the box and not "normal" as far as judging is concerned.

Brother, mustard sauce isn't normal outside of the Carolina region...for anyone...not just judges. I love mustard sauce, but it won't appeal to enough judges not because they are judges, it's because it is a regional flavour.

 

[DR]

Brother, mustard sauce isn't normal outside of the Carolina region...for anyone...not just judges. I love mustard sauce, but it won't appeal to enough judges not because they are judges, it's because it is a regional flavour.

You are re enforcing my point. You just said it wasn't normal. This completely reiterates my entire point. You are basing your judging on personal preference and not guidelines. There are no set guidelines for taste and they allow personal preference and you just solidified that. I'm not starting a fight but this is the exact answer I wanted someone to say.

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

I said it bc it is a true statement. It is a regional flavor just as white sauce on chicken in Alabama, or straight vinegar sauce in Carolina and Virginia.

For their region they are balanced flavors. We just won first place vinegar sauce at Memphis in May...if I were to put that on pork and feed it to a North Carolinian CBJ judge, they would like it. If I were to feed it to the 5 other CBJ judges at the table from parts unknown, they would say it is not balanced. It is vinegary.

You take a gamble with regional flavors. That's BBQ.

Now, are those judges wrong...NO they are not. They can only assume you are going for Carolina vinegar sauce. But they are taught to taste for balance, and Vinegar sauce is not balanced. A good Vinegar sauce is in your face sour, with a little heat and great vinegar flavor.

Far from "balanced"

Same with Mustard, we got 8th place at MIM. It is just as above, judges would need to be trained what a balanced mustard sauce is. To them it is not balanced...that is going by what a CBJ is taught in class...balance

 

[DR]

My last comment here and then I will let it be.

It's all personal preference with no guidelines for taste.

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

Brother, they taught me in CBJ class that balance was everything in taste.

Your arguement does not hold weight because mustard sauce does not balance. It tastes mustardy...as well it should, it is a mustard sauce. It's not personal preference that kills the mustard, it it the mustard that kills it as a comp sauce. Tomorrow I will post all the kcbs taste rules I have...there are more than you think.

 

[DawgPhan]

KCBS is just another bbq organization. It is by far the largest, but gold standard it is not. I like cooking KCBS, I also like cooking MIM, NEBS, and MBN. If I lived in Georgia I would love to cook GBA. Florida FBA. The point is the moment KCBS defines how BBQ SHOULD TASTE, is the moment it fails

Please tell me how you personally would define taste of bbq.

In fact to prove a point...everyone list it. Taste is different to each taster. Everyone tastes differently, therefore you can not dictate how something should taste...

You would have to supply every team the same meat. The same rub. The same injections, the same sauces, the same cooker, the same wood.

And you as a judge would be tasting the same thing...over, and over, and over. And what's the fun it that

Lulz...

KCBS is the gold standard. The other sanctioning groups are fine, but KCBS is doing it the best.

You wouldnt have to give everyone the same supplies, they simply need to define the parameters for taste and appearance as they do with tenderness.

There are beer contests around the country. There are very clear guidelines on each style. The level of creativity and the ability of the brewer to express themselves and create a unique beer has not been limited by those guidelines.

I think KCBS should try heading down that road to help define their style of bbq, to further separate themselves from the rest of the sanctioning bodies, and to create better judging.