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Vince RnQ

is Blowin Smoke!
Joined
Sep 9, 2007
Location
Phoenix, AZ
* Are you a competition barbeque cook?
* Are you a KCBS Member?
* Are you tired of the "status quo" attitude from the current KCBS Board of Directors?

If so, I ask that you join me in supporting Mike Hays, David Qualls, Mike Richter & Jeff Sharp as candidates for the 2015 KCBS Board of Directors.

Until we have some strong representation by cooks on the Board, nothing is going to change. These four gentlemen have the knowledge, understanding and experience to best represent our point of view within the organization. They will help restore balance on the Board and work for what is best for all, not just a few.

This year, make your voting mantra "No Reps, No Judges, No Incumbents - Just Cooks!" and help bring about some very much needed change!

Thank you for your time and please share this post on other forums and Facebook if you agree. We need to get the word out to as many of our fellow cooks as we can.
 
We went down this road with the "Fab 4", the mantra then was "speak for cooks" and no one could articulate what that meant a few years ago and frankly the only thing that changed was we got an even more screwed up pork rule, penisapron gate, and not a lot else.

We've all read the answers to the platitude inducing questions in the Bullsheet and this year I'd like to see some specific answers to questions like:


  • What does "representing the cooks" mean to you and how does that translate to action in the real world? What is the #1 thing that needs to happen to better support cooks?
  • A first year contest defaulted on prize payment this year. What specific changes in KCBS policy, sanctioning contracts, and on site representation would you advocate to prevent this in the future?
  • Do you feel rule #1 should be done away with or paired down?
  • Should reps be required to perform spot inspections to insure rules compliance?
  • How would you address the disparity in judging standards?
 
Thank You Vince for the confidence!

I think the whole group of candidates this year are fine people. I can say that your endorsement wasn’t solicited by me and probably none of the other candidates mentioned.

I will say that there isn’t a “FAB 4” group that I’m a member of.
Those that know me know that I shoot from the hip. I was very vocal that there needed to be more cooks on the 12 member board to balance out the lines of interest that compose the body of KCBS.
I said more than once that 10 teams should sign up to run and maybe some teams would get elected.

Having said that, I rarely duck from a challenge so here’s my midnight run at this.

Q-What does "representing the cooks" mean to you and how does that translate to action in the real world?

A- After cooking 96 contests in the last three seasons all across most of the nation from Florida to Nevada, and Minnesota to Texas, I have experienced the good and bad of being a cook. I think this experience along with being an organizer gives me the experience to deal with issues that come to the Board level and use these fields of experience to come to a common ground that gives the cooks a voice on issues that affect them. In my opinion, the cooks are the nucleus of a contest and everything else revolves around that. That in no way minimized the importance of Judges, Rep’s and Organizers but the reason the event happens is because cooks enter to compete.


Q-What is the #1 thing that needs to happen to better support cooks?
A- Policies & Procedures notwithstanding, Promotion of the Sport. KCBS needs to continue to promote BBQ in a way that makes sponsors want to help Organizers, Individuals want to become Competitors, and The Public want to come out and cheer and participate in the Organizers efforts. Let’s make it popular for everyone in every location that promotes BBQ.

Q-A first year contest defaulted on prize payment this year. What specific changes in KCBS policy, sanctioning contracts, and on site representation would you advocate to prevent this in the future?

A-As an Organizer, I have to sign a notarized sanctioning application that says I will guarantee the posted prize money and post a liability insurance policy naming KCBS as an insured party.

Having said that, if the Teams are not paid and KCBS sanctioned the organizer, KCBS should have a first option to file a claim against the organizers insurance and or seek a civil remedy.

In my opinion in the meantime they should accept the responsibility to its teams to pay the teams and pursue remedies to collect from the organizer that defaulted his guarantee to KCBS as a part of receiving sanctioning.

When I was a licensed Boxing/Wrestling Promoter, I had to submit a surety bond in the name the licensing body in order to be licensed. This bond usually costs $100 a year. This might be a good idea as a requirement for first year promoters for KCBS to protect itself but either way, I think KCBS is on the hook to make good on the payments of a contest it accepted a guarantee from and sanctioned.
The goodwill toward the teams will outweigh the liability of having to make good on one or two contests per year.

Q-Do you feel rule #1 should be done away with or paired down?

A-KCBS Reps should have the proper training that there is no “Interpretation” of the rule The rules of the contests should be plain and concise enough and presented to the Reps in a manner that there is no room for individual interpretation. The Reps must have the authority to make a determination based on the rules and for the most part I think they do in the contests I have cooked/organized. Don’t forget they like us are human and prone to make mistakes. As a candidate, at this point I don’t have the experience with the procedures to comment further on this.


Q-Should reps be required to perform spot inspections to insure rules compliance?

A-I agree with “Spot Inspections” however the situation mirrors the Seatbelt and Texting laws they are really only enforceable once exposed because of an ancillary situation.

Personally, of the 20 published Rules governing the teams, I think Rule 18 is the most critical one deeming a spot inspection by a Rep.

Rule 7 is a primary function of the meat inspector. I don’t want to even get started on the Pork Rule.

I just don’t see what would be required of a spot inspection of the other 18 rules, many of which are inspected at the time for judging.

Q-How would you address the disparity in judging standards?

A-Very Carefully! It will require consultation and data analysis to get it right. The worst thing that can happen is for the Board to make a knee jerk decision to put a Band-Aid on a severed leg.
I have been the victim of the Table of Death and the Recipient of the Angle Score!
I think we all agree there are about three different standards that judges were trained to use. I do not blame the individual judges as a whole body for this. Yes there are individuals in every facet of the sport that are the exception but certainly not the norm. If I were to have to create a starting point, I would,
1-Advocate placing a hold on having any more new judging classes until the issue is under control
2-Address the issue and create a position of awareness at the judges instruction meeting at the contest
3-Work to immediately develop a seating arrangement that could include when the judge was certified to help bridge the gap.

It’s going to take more than cooks, Judges, Reps and Board Members to fix this problem. I think KCBS will need to reach out to the culinary community as well as other discretionary judged activities such as wine tasting etc., to help develop a system that will coincide with today’s modern techniques.

In Conclusion,

I don’t have the complete answer to any of these questions but I threw my name in the hat recognizing there are always going to be issues that are important and a diverse group that will be affected either in a positive or negative way at the same time. I just want to help be a part of the solution not part of the problem. As a cook I believe I have an insight on issues that the board doesn’t presently have adequate representation to address. If you agree with me, Vote for me if you don’t agree or have confidence that I can make a positive contribution, Vote for a candidate who you believe will meet your expectations. But most of all as KCBS Members, PLEASE VOTE!:clap2:
 
* Are you a competition barbeque cook?
* Are you a KCBS Member?
* Are you tired of the "status quo" attitude from the current KCBS Board of Directors?

If so, I ask that you join me in supporting Mike Hays, David Qualls, Mike Richter & Jeff Sharp as candidates for the 2015 KCBS Board of Directors.

Until we have some strong representation by cooks on the Board, nothing is going to change. These four gentlemen have the knowledge, understanding and experience to best represent our point of view within the organization. They will help restore balance on the Board and work for what is best for all, not just a few.

This year, make your voting mantra "No Reps, No Judges, No Incumbents - Just Cooks!" and help bring about some very much needed change!

Thank you for your time and please share this post on other forums and Facebook if you agree. We need to get the word out to as many of our fellow cooks as we can.


I would like to hear each of them give us their platform, their concerns, the way they plan to make changes etc….
 
Thank You Vince for the confidence!

I think the whole group of candidates this year are fine people. I can say that your endorsement wasn’t solicited by me and probably none of the other candidates mentioned.

I will say that there isn’t a “FAB 4” group that I’m a member of.
Those that know me know that I shoot from the hip. I was very vocal that there needed to be more cooks on the 12 member board to balance out the lines of interest that compose the body of KCBS.
I said more than once that 10 teams should sign up to run and maybe some teams would get elected.

Having said that, I rarely duck from a challenge so here’s my midnight run at this.

Q-What does "representing the cooks" mean to you and how does that translate to action in the real world?

A- After cooking 96 contests in the last three seasons all across most of the nation from Florida to Nevada, and Minnesota to Texas, I have experienced the good and bad of being a cook. I think this experience along with being an organizer gives me the experience to deal with issues that come to the Board level and use these fields of experience to come to a common ground that gives the cooks a voice on issues that affect them. In my opinion, the cooks are the nucleus of a contest and everything else revolves around that. That in no way minimized the importance of Judges, Rep’s and Organizers but the reason the event happens is because cooks enter to compete.


Q-What is the #1 thing that needs to happen to better support cooks?
A- Policies & Procedures notwithstanding, Promotion of the Sport. KCBS needs to continue to promote BBQ in a way that makes sponsors want to help Organizers, Individuals want to become Competitors, and The Public want to come out and cheer and participate in the Organizers efforts. Let’s make it popular for everyone in every location that promotes BBQ.

Q-A first year contest defaulted on prize payment this year. What specific changes in KCBS policy, sanctioning contracts, and on site representation would you advocate to prevent this in the future?

A-As an Organizer, I have to sign a notarized sanctioning application that says I will guarantee the posted prize money and post a liability insurance policy naming KCBS as an insured party.

Having said that, if the Teams are not paid and KCBS sanctioned the organizer, KCBS should have a first option to file a claim against the organizers insurance and or seek a civil remedy.

In my opinion in the meantime they should accept the responsibility to its teams to pay the teams and pursue remedies to collect from the organizer that defaulted his guarantee to KCBS as a part of receiving sanctioning.

When I was a licensed Boxing/Wrestling Promoter, I had to submit a surety bond in the name the licensing body in order to be licensed. This bond usually costs $100 a year. This might be a good idea as a requirement for first year promoters for KCBS to protect itself but either way, I think KCBS is on the hook to make good on the payments of a contest it accepted a guarantee from and sanctioned.
The goodwill toward the teams will outweigh the liability of having to make good on one or two contests per year.

Q-Do you feel rule #1 should be done away with or paired down?

A-KCBS Reps should have the proper training that there is no “Interpretation” of the rule The rules of the contests should be plain and concise enough and presented to the Reps in a manner that there is no room for individual interpretation. The Reps must have the authority to make a determination based on the rules and for the most part I think they do in the contests I have cooked/organized. Don’t forget they like us are human and prone to make mistakes. As a candidate, at this point I don’t have the experience with the procedures to comment further on this.


Q-Should reps be required to perform spot inspections to insure rules compliance?

A-I agree with “Spot Inspections” however the situation mirrors the Seatbelt and Texting laws they are really only enforceable once exposed because of an ancillary situation.

Personally, of the 20 published Rules governing the teams, I think Rule 18 is the most critical one deeming a spot inspection by a Rep.

Rule 7 is a primary function of the meat inspector. I don’t want to even get started on the Pork Rule.

I just don’t see what would be required of a spot inspection of the other 18 rules, many of which are inspected at the time for judging.

Q-How would you address the disparity in judging standards?

A-Very Carefully! It will require consultation and data analysis to get it right. The worst thing that can happen is for the Board to make a knee jerk decision to put a Band-Aid on a severed leg.
I have been the victim of the Table of Death and the Recipient of the Angle Score!
I think we all agree there are about three different standards that judges were trained to use. I do not blame the individual judges as a whole body for this. Yes there are individuals in every facet of the sport that are the exception but certainly not the norm. If I were to have to create a starting point, I would,
1-Advocate placing a hold on having any more new judging classes until the issue is under control
2-Address the issue and create a position of awareness at the judges instruction meeting at the contest
3-Work to immediately develop a seating arrangement that could include when the judge was certified to help bridge the gap.

It’s going to take more than cooks, Judges, Reps and Board Members to fix this problem. I think KCBS will need to reach out to the culinary community as well as other discretionary judged activities such as wine tasting etc., to help develop a system that will coincide with today’s modern techniques.

In Conclusion,

I don’t have the complete answer to any of these questions but I threw my name in the hat recognizing there are always going to be issues that are important and a diverse group that will be affected either in a positive or negative way at the same time. I just want to help be a part of the solution not part of the problem. As a cook I believe I have an insight on issues that the board doesn’t presently have adequate representation to address. If you agree with me, Vote for me if you don’t agree or have confidence that I can make a positive contribution, Vote for a candidate who you believe will meet your expectations. But most of all as KCBS Members, PLEASE VOTE!:clap2:

EXCELLENT!! One vote heading your way.
 

Q-A first year contest defaulted on prize payment this year. What specific changes in KCBS policy, sanctioning contracts, and on site representation would you advocate to prevent this in the future?

A-As an Organizer, I have to sign a notarized sanctioning application that says I will guarantee the posted prize money and post a liability insurance policy naming KCBS as an insured party.

Having said that, if the Teams are not paid and KCBS sanctioned the organizer, KCBS should have a first option to file a claim against the organizers insurance and or seek a civil remedy.

In my opinion in the meantime they should accept the responsibility to its teams to pay the teams and pursue remedies to collect from the organizer that defaulted his guarantee to KCBS as a part of receiving sanctioning.

When I was a licensed Boxing/Wrestling Promoter, I had to submit a surety bond in the name the licensing body in order to be licensed. This bond usually costs $100 a year. This might be a good idea as a requirement for first year promoters for KCBS to protect itself but either way, I think KCBS is on the hook to make good on the payments of a contest it accepted a guarantee from and sanctioned.
The goodwill toward the teams will outweigh the liability of having to make good on one or two contests per year.


You got my vote right here!
 
In my opinion, the cooks are the nucleus of a contest and everything else revolves around that. That in no way minimized the importance of Judges, Rep’s and Organizers but the reason the event happens is because cooks enter to compete.

Bingo! :thumb: You have my vote Brother!
 
Q-How would you address the disparity in judging standards?

A-Very Carefully! It will require consultation and data analysis to get it right. The worst thing that can happen is for the Board to make a knee jerk decision to put a Band-Aid on a severed leg.
I have been the victim of the Table of Death and the Recipient of the Angle Score!
I think we all agree there are about three different standards that judges were trained to use. I do not blame the individual judges as a whole body for this. Yes there are individuals in every facet of the sport that are the exception but certainly not the norm. If I were to have to create a starting point, I would,
1-Advocate placing a hold on having any more new judging classes until the issue is under control
2-Address the issue and create a position of awareness at the judges instruction meeting at the contest
3-Work to immediately develop a seating arrangement that could include when the judge was certified to help bridge the gap.

It’s going to take more than cooks, Judges, Reps and Board Members to fix this problem. I think KCBS will need to reach out to the culinary community as well as other discretionary judged activities such as wine tasting etc., to help develop a system that will coincide with today’s modern techniques.

Can you explain #3 in bold please?
 
Q-A first year contest defaulted on prize payment this year. What specific changes in KCBS policy, sanctioning contracts, and on site representation would you advocate to prevent this in the future?

A-As an Organizer, I have to sign a notarized sanctioning application that says I will guarantee the posted prize money and post a liability insurance policy naming KCBS as an insured party.

Having said that, if the Teams are not paid and KCBS sanctioned the organizer, KCBS should have a first option to file a claim against the organizers insurance and or seek a civil remedy.

In my opinion in the meantime they should accept the responsibility to its teams to pay the teams and pursue remedies to collect from the organizer that defaulted his guarantee to KCBS as a part of receiving sanctioning.

When I was a licensed Boxing/Wrestling Promoter, I had to submit a surety bond in the name the licensing body in order to be licensed. This bond usually costs $100 a year. This might be a good idea as a requirement for first year promoters for KCBS to protect itself but either way, I think KCBS is on the hook to make good on the payments of a contest it accepted a guarantee from and sanctioned.
The goodwill toward the teams will outweigh the liability of having to make good on one or two contests per year.

Yes, KCBS should require a surety bond of 125% of the amount of the prize fund, rep and sanctioning fees with an expire date of 90+ days for the date of the contest with KCBS as the recipient.
KCBS will then be the responsible party the teams hold accountable for non-paying organizers.
 
Can you explain #3 in bold please?

There isn't a standardized method for seating judges that I'm aware of. From the Reps and organizers that I talk to, they usually try to sort out the CBJ from the NOn-CBJ and then sort by number of contests previously judged.

Since the Score program is tracking but the information has yet to be analyzed or criteria developed I t isn't available as a tool presently

I said using when the judge was certified "Could" be used as a seating factor. If it can be determined the years that the different training criteria was used, it can't hurt to look at using that as a option.
 
I would no more vote for a group of 4 cooks anymore than I would blindly vote Democrat or Republican. I vote only for the person that I feel best represents my concerns.
Filling a BOD with single minded participants would be like watching a dog chase his tail.
Ed

The issues that concern me, as a cook, are those that are known and passionately understood by other cooks. The Reps and Judges in this organization have held the majority for quite a long time and I don't like where it had taken us. I and a number of my fellow cooks have decided to support the cooks who are running for the Board in hopes of seeing changes that we think are important but have been ignored by past and present Boards.

If you disagree with that philosophy, so be it. Most of the cooks I've talked to agree with it.
 
I will gladly vote for these 4 cooks if they can get us judges our KCBS Score running judging averages, which those Reps and Judges haven't been able to accomplish.
 
Care to share?


exactly. nothing to definitive. Just we care about the things that you care about.

And seeing as the last time they pushed for this the only thing that got changed was the pork rule.

Which strangely enough made legal a cooking method that some people, but not all, were all ready using...gee I wonder if any of the 4 elected cooks ever railed on about the old pork rule prior to getting elected?

So chances are they care about the things they care about. What you care about may or may not line up with what they care about.
 
Jeff Sharp

What does "representing the cooks" mean to you and how does that translate to action in the real world? What is the #1 thing that needs to happen to better support cooks?

As with any organization or democratic setup representation by its members or population is utmost so there voices can be heard & expressed, the opinion at hand is that the current KCBS BOD has no cooks voice, that's what "representing" to me means, I have been cooking the past 4 years completing a 24 comp season this year I have traveled to 8 states to compete, as Dave stated I have experienced the good, the bad & the ugly of being a cook I have a very good understanding of the concerns of cooks and a complete understanding of the basis for those concerns.
As for the # 1 thing to support the cooks; I'm in line with Dave, however I would like to see KCBS seek out a national sponsor specifically for Kids Q to assist organizers in promoting the sport, I have witnessed first hand the excitement of a young man or woman get a call the excitement of his or her attending family members and to see those individuals return year after year.


A first year contest defaulted on prize payment this year. What specific changes in KCBS policy, sanctioning contracts, and on site representation would you advocate to prevent this in the future?

I have personally experienced this twice this year, it goes without saying that the organizer should be sanctioned from organizing any further contests. I believe that KCBS should be directly involved in the accounting for the prize money this could be done through the reps for each contest, the organizer should place the prize pool in a separate account and in a predetermined time frame show an accounting to the contest reps to ensure that the monies are separately held, the organizer can then disperse the prize pool via cash or check. This is a simple approach however if it is made a requirement by KCBS for each contest it may or may not solve the problem but it is a start.


Do you feel rule #1 should be done away with or paired down?

Rules are Rules. If rules are left for interpretation then they are not rules but simply guidelines/suggestions, I have not experienced, witnessed or been told of any incidences of blatant interpretation of the rules that was misguided, not to say that it hasn't happened. Contests (as the reps say in their statements) are to be judged fairly; hence we have rules to ensure this. I also feel that the rules are in place to assist the reps so there is no questions, rules guide,direct & dictate procedure.

Should reps be required to perform spot inspections to insure rules compliance?

Only if there is a complaint made which would require an inspection to resolve the issue. Those individuals that know me know how OCD I can be when it comes to cleanliness so I agree with Dave's point of view, the meat inspection is a spot inspection.




How would you address the disparity in judging standards

My answer mirrors Dave's, judging classes need to be halted, the current pool of judges which have been schooled differently need to be on the same base line, that is a starting point,
The current software needs to be utilized in assisting reps in judge table placement at contests, judges meetings are a great place to start in giving instruction on a base line. Any fix would require research and dialogue to best implement. Do I see sometime in the distant future a overhaul of judging yes I believe it will be required with the growth of the sport, Dave's statement about looking into other parts of the culinary world is spot on, they have already been there and done that lets utilize.


KCBS is made up of Judges, Reps, Organizers, Cooks & Members which are none of the previously stated; In order for any organization to be successful it needs all of its members to be represented, KCBS is ours all of ours and we need not lose sight of that, we all should have the same goal which is continued success & growth; I have no agenda other than this, Further if elected my points of view, decisions, comments, answers to questions & votes are going to be based on what's best for KCBS as a whole not just one facet of the organization, I am fully aware that some of the decisions/votes I make may upset some of the members & for me I accept that for if I was to only make certain facets happy I would be practicing mediocrity.
 
Care to share?

exactly. nothing to definitive. Just we care about the things that you care about.

And seeing as the last time they pushed for this the only thing that got changed was the pork rule.

Which strangely enough made legal a cooking method that some people, but not all, were all ready using...gee I wonder if any of the 4 elected cooks ever railed on about the old pork rule prior to getting elected?

So chances are they care about the things they care about. What you care about may or may not line up with what they care about.


I understand what you guys both mean. I have spoken at one time or another with three of the four candidates (Hays, Richter & Qualls) about things I'm concerned about and we have common ground. Here's an example...

We all have major concerns with the state of the KCBS judging class program. Judges aren't being trained as much as memberships to people who become judges are being sold. There is no test to determine that anyone who takes a class has any comprehension/understanding of what was taught. The class sizes are often ridiculously large rendering it impossible for anyone cooking for the class to do more than sling meat into a box. There have been multiple schools of thought taught over where a judge should start their scoring (9 and work down vs. 6 and work up or down) and no follow up with judges who were taught one way to bring them around to whatever the new way is.

I don't blame judges for doing the best they can. I blame KCBS for creating a situation where the best a judge can do is far below what they are capable of doing with the right kind of initial instruction and follow up training.

I find it quite amusing that KCBS focuses so much attention on getting money from people to become judges then ignores them and then changes their focus to getting money from contest sanctioning and then ignores the cooks at the events.

This is an issue that many cooks are very passionate about because we face the repercussions of the problems associated with it at every contest. Do you have any idea, as a judge, how frustrating it is to spend $1000 or so to cook an event and then get scores that are wildly different within a single category. Take brisket for example; Most slices of brisket that go into a box are cut from a section that is maybe 3 inches long. How is it reasonably possible for a few judges to give samples from that box scores like 898, 998, 999, etc., and then others to give meat from the very same section scores like 676, 776, 777, etc.? It doesn't make any sense unless the judges don't all have the same idea of what constitutes good competition barbeque. You can't explain away why one judge thinks something is a 9 in tenderness and another judge thinks it's a 6. Folks this happens all the time nowadays. We have more judging classes cranking out more new judges than we can possibly have seats at tables for all of them. But, that's a great revenue stream for KCBS so keep the line moving!

I simply find it hard to believe that any Judge or Rep is going to have anything close to the kind of passion over this kind of issue because it doesn't impact them in anywhere near the same kind of fashion. But, the cooks all understand it very, very well because they have all lived it...multiple times each year.

Guys, I hope that helps to answer your question.
 
exactly. nothing to definitive. Just we care about the things that you care about.

And seeing as the last time they pushed for this the only thing that got changed was the pork rule.

Which strangely enough made legal a cooking method that some people, but not all, were all ready using...gee I wonder if any of the 4 elected cooks ever railed on about the old pork rule prior to getting elected?

So chances are they care about the things they care about. What you care about may or may not line up with what they care about.

Don't know about any of the other directors, but I sure didn't like the stupid pork rule - it was one of the three reasons I ran for the board back in 2009. From the perspective of 4 years and 10 months on the board, balance is just as important running KCBS as it is in BBQ flavor profiles. Need a balance of reps, judges, cooks, organizers making decisions for KCBS.

This is my opinion, blah, blah, blah, I just really hope every member VOTES!
 
You can't explain away why one judge thinks something is a 9 in tenderness and another judge thinks it's a 6.

First, thanks for directly articulating an issue. I wish there was more directness from the candidates vs vague platitudes.

On to what I quoted. We cooked for a judge's class this year and did an experiment on this very issue. We had 2 master judges helping us and we cooked 7 or 8 small briskets for the class. Because of the volume we had to produce we didn't shift any of the briskets resulting in a large range of tenderness. As we were slicing the briskets we'd sample to the 2 judges and ask their thoughts on tenderness score. One slice cut in half to reduce the variance as much as possible. The results? One slice judge A) 9 "perfect" judge B) 6 "overcooked-mushy" Another sample judge A) 6 "undercooked - too chewy" judge B) 9 "perfect - I like my brisket with some chew." The only score that they agreed on was the two briskets they both gave 7's to.

The answer to your question seems to be "human variance"
 
Don't know about any of the other directors, but I sure didn't like the stupid pork rule
Which stupid pork rule? The one we had before that was unenforced but designed to test a cooks skill at cooking a large piece of meat to the correct doneness throughout or the convoluted stupider dumbed down unenforceable rule we have now?
 
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