A judges perspective

[paydabill]

I swear I just was told this last weekend. A friend of my wife came to talk to me about the Royal. She had a friend that used to be a reporter at the KC star. She still has her credentials, and tried to use them become a judge.

Here is the kicker, she is a vergitarian (sp). I asked how was she going to judge without eating the meat? She said on smell and appearance. She was not joking!

Her friend tried to get in at the open. They were goign to let her in because of a last minute cancellations, but they needed table captains more than they needed actual judges, so she did not judge.

Made me sick. We tried to get a hold of her, because i was goign to give her a piece of my mind, but she was not home.

 

[paydabill]

We did a contest that had 100% CBJ's and 10 in waiting. Day of 4 didn't show up at all even after several contacts before the event. One was three weeks before asking if they would still honor their commitment and the second was with the CBJ packet sent out a week before the contest. One judge actually called and said she would be there after they played the tape because she was running late. We told her to sign up for next year and we would see here then. Good luck with your contest Jeff.



Doesn't take much to place a stop payment on a check or if you do actually cash the check to prevent this what a nightmare for the organizer to spend the extra time after the contest to write refund checks.
If Nebraska can come up with 40 plus CBJ's for a contest with 30 teams (I think we only have 5 contests a year) than locations like KC should have no problems filling the judges rosters. More CBJ classes are needed and more CBJ instructors are needed as well.

I had to cancel at the Brain Injury one that Jamey and Aimee did 2 weeks ago. I really wanted to be there, but had a death in my family and had to travel to Decatur, Ill. I felt really bad, because it was short noitice.

I understand when things go ary, but I also feel sorry for people who were put on an alternate list and everyone shows up. I think organizers do the best they can, I appreciate the hard work they put in. I do judging so I can keep up with what is out there on presentations.

 

[KC_Bobby]

I swear I just was told this last weekend. A friend of my wife came to talk to me about the Royal. She had a friend that used to be a reporter at the KC star. She still has her credentials, and tried to use them become a judge.

Here is the kicker, she is a vergitarian (sp). I asked how was she going to judge without eating the meat? She said on smell and appearance. She was not joking!

Her friend tried to get in at the open. They were goign to let her in because of a last minute cancellations, but they needed table captains more than they needed actual judges, so she did not judge.

Made me sick. We tried to get a hold of her, because i was goign to give her a piece of my mind, but she was not home.

That's hearsay. :biggrin: literally

That said, I think thoughts like these carry a punishment of cutting off the tongue in 47 of the 48 continential states.

 

[Papa Hogg]

There are, however, ways to make it a bit closer to perfect than it currently is and that's where the debate comes in and why it gets "beaten to death". I understand that bad judges are a large minority but it only takes one judge to screw up a contest for a team.

I have not getten thru all the post yet, but I have to respond to this...It only takes 1 umpire to screw up a baseball game by calling a ball a strike that was really a ball.

Our sport needs judges & judges are going to have their own tastes & opinions & if you can't take the subjective nature of judging in our sport then quit competeing & if you decide to not quit competeing then at least quit your whining.

One of the comps I did this summer my ribs received 7, 8's & 9's for taste & one judge gave me a 5 which just kept me out of the top 10 & possible the top 5. Did I bash the judge or that score, no...I thought what the hell was wrong with the rib that the judge got...did it have an uneven amount of rub, did he get too much cayenne, or did he just not like the flavor profile I created???

 

[KC_Bobby]

If all the ribs came off the same rack, I can't imagine it tasted different then the other five.

Regarding officials - at least we know they've been trained, provided a book regarding correct protocol, and tested (outside of teeball)

That said, respecting others tastes is needed

 

[Papa Hogg]

If all the ribs came off the same rack, I can't imagine it tasted different then the other five.

My comment on officials - at least we know they've been trained provided a book regarding correct protocol, and tested(outside of teeball)

They didn't all come from the same rack, they came from 3 different racks & I chose the ones that were similar in size, color, ect...I tasted ribs from all 3 racks myself & thought the doneness & taste were all pretty close & I thought the 6 I put in the box were my best chance for a call (my opinion - subjective; obviously 1 judge had a different opinion - subjective which he is entitled to). Next contest I was more focused on my rib prep ect & I got 6th place.

 

[ModelMaker]

"Maybe some sort of refundable monetary deposit should be instituted to assure CBJ's will show. JMHO"

Man, this is just getting way out of hand. You want me to send money in to a contest to make sure I'll be there? If I tell an organizer I will be there, I will be there. My word is golden. I was schdeuled to judge the Iowa State championships in Marshalltown this spring and due to health problems had to cancel. I called the judges organizer in due time and informed him of such. I think most adults would do likewise, if not then next time they sign up they should be told their services are not needed and why. Problem solved.

I think the biggest problem is non-commmunication between organizers and judges. At the Brew-B-Que in Independence this year I never did get any tiype of confirmation that I was confirmed as a judge and had to call him twice to make sure I was needed. And I was not the only one, listening to some of the others it was a common thought that there was a huge gap between the two.
This can be fixed easily with better communication. Problem solved.

As far as why don't you get the same numbers from everybody? What the hell do you expect? Some people just have different ideas of presentation, taste, and tenderness. However it is all addressed in the rules. Low score is removed, IF A JUDGE IS DOING A CONSISTANTLY BAD JOB THE REP MUST HANDLE IT!!
The system obviously works as the top rated teams win quite often. Problem not.

I believe that every judge who has done several contests is well aware of the effort and time and cost that you all put out and does their very best to give you your due.
And I think most of you are aware of the time and effort we as judges put forth also. So lets quit the nitpickin crap about taking a few bags of leftovers home (versus pitching it in the garbage) to show the wife what other people serve as BBQ, and just enjoy the sport of heads up mine is better than yours.
Have a great winter and I'll see you all next spring.
ModelMaker

 

[butts a fire]

I can't believe this thread turned into this battle between judges. But I would like to give my .02. I think that judges do the best they can with the system they have been given. I have never judged but I have several relatives that do judge on a regular basis. I also believe that more often that not the right teams are winning the contests those teams that can turn in the best most consistant bbq week in and week out are going to win and that is a proven fact if the judging didn't work then you would not see the same teams winning every week and every year they are just that good. I am not that good yet but am getting better and I have the scores that prove it. occasionally I get a score I didn't deserve both high and low so in my estimation the system is not broke and does not need to be changed at all.

And as far as the judges taking home the leftover from my turn ins I could care less once I turn it in I don't want it back and they are free to do with it what ever they please. With that said when I start judging next year I will probably not be taking home leftovers as I already have plenty from the competitions that I do.

 

[motoeric]

How often were the judges who signed up kept in contact with?

They received at least one email each week for the three weeks prior to the event.

Eric

 

[Jeff_in_KC]

I have not getten thru all the post yet, but I have to respond to this...It only takes 1 umpire to screw up a baseball game by calling a ball a strike that was really a ball.

Our sport needs judges & judges are going to have their own tastes & opinions & if you can't take the subjective nature of judging in our sport then quit competeing & if you decide to not quit competeing then at least quit your whining.

One of the comps I did this summer my ribs received 7, 8's & 9's for taste & one judge gave me a 5 which just kept me out of the top 10 & possible the top 5. Did I bash the judge or that score, no...I thought what the hell was wrong with the rib that the judge got...did it have an uneven amount of rub, did he get too much cayenne, or did he just not like the flavor profile I created???

Man, you have some friggin nerve to tell me to quit whining. If problems are never addressed, they never get fixed.

 

[Papa Hogg]

First off, do you realize what some judges are doing? They're taking such small nibbles off their samples that there's no way they can fairly judge the meats. I got this directly from Ed Roith last year in the parking lot of the KCBS office. He's busted many people doing this. So why only nibble on it? So you can take home pretty much un-eaten pieces of meat while the juding process becomes a farce.

Secondly, the judges know what they have to do when they sign on. Nothing says they "deserve" to take home leftovers. The meat does not BELONG to them. Now if a contest wants to allow judges to come take meat from the de-constructed boxes and to ask teams to bring up extras for the volunteer table (judges are basically volunteers too), fine. Take all you want. Oh and throwing away a little bit of food leftover is not a waste OR a sin.

I'm with Jeff; judges cooking once isn't for pity points but for perspective. Just as I think it's good for a cook to judge.

I've just seen judges with a very high opinion of what they're doing, as though it couldn't be done without them. That's true on one level, but even without judges, there would be barbecue.

And I'm sorry, but driving and staying in a hotel isn't the same as buying equipment, driving with the equipment in tow, paying entry fees, buying meat, staying up all night, etc... The work of judging is minimal.. sit on your butt and eat. I've done it, I know it's not as tough as cooking.

I don't think judges take it less seriously than they should... Some just should take themselves less seriously.

Exactly what are the awards if they aren't basically "praise" for jobs well done? I see teams winning awards getting praised by their peers all the time and deservedly so. In contrast, I've never heard a person tell a judge "Awesome job on tasting that BBQ and scoring it 787!"

Eric, around here, most contest judge areas are inside a building with A/C in the summer and very few flies. Most don't drive 100 miles even round trip because there are so many events in this region. So sitting through rain storms and snow doesn't draw my praise when I was cooped up in a 10x10 canopy with a grill, half a Spicewine, three tables and my wife for hours a couple of weeks ago, all the while trying to keep all of our equipment dry, from blowing away or being floated away by the run-off from the driving rain storm.

Man, you have some friggin nerve to tell me to quit whining. If problems are never addressed, they never get fixed.

Testy, testy...I've just re-scanned a few of the post & my comment wasn't aimed directly at you, but I guess as the saying goes "if the shoe fits", I just used your post to illustrate my sports umpire/ref comparison.

When dealing with humans there are going to be some problems here & there & if you can't accept a less than perfect system maybe you should stay in your backyard. I've never heard Mike Davis from Lotta Bull complain that the judges screwed him, I have only heard him complain about his own cooking & what he did wrong, maybe that's why he is one of the elite, same goes with Dr.BBQ.

On a whole most comps run very smoothly & the ones that don't cease to exist. Like Model Maker & The Kapt'n said if the competitors complain to much it is possible our sport will go away because of lack of judges, or worse yet all of the good (& that's 99% of them) judges will quit judging competitions & we will be left with people off the street.

Just my .02...

 

[Jeff_in_KC]

Testy, testy...I've just re-scanned a few of the post & my comment wasn't aimed directly at you, but I guess as the saying goes "if the shoe fits", I just used your post to illustrate my sports umpire/ref comparison.

When dealing with humans there are going to be some problems here & there & if you can't accept a less than perfect system maybe you should stay in your backyard. I've never heard Mike Davis from Lotta Bull complain that the judges screwed him, I have only heard him complain about his own cooking & what he did wrong, maybe that's why he is one of the elite, same goes with Dr.BBQ.

On a whole most comps run very smoothly & the ones that don't cease to exist. Like Model Maker & The Kapt'n said if the competitors complain to much it is possible our sport will go away because of lack of judges, or worse yet all of the good (& that's 99% of them) judges will quit judging competitions & we will be left with people off the street.

Just my .02...

I guess you are relatively new so you probably haven't heard Ray go off on CBJs. Bad example there. Maybe for other reasons but still... do a search.

I think you're way overboard to tell me to "stay in my backyard" if I can't accept a less than perfect system. I don't do 12 to 15 contests a year not being accepting of the system. However, there are always ways to improve on those imperfect systems (not making them perfect) and without discussions of opinions and ideas, nothing gets accomplished. In any area of life, should we just let situations that we don't agree with continue or should we look to improve them? Should you make it your personal agenda to quiet the expression of thoughts, ideas and suggestions because you happen to be happy with everything? I simply disagree with allowing coolers into a judging area because I believe it encourages SOME judges to concentrate on what they get to take home with them and not on the task at hand. And I guess that's not a KCBS issue. It's up to organizers to make that call.

 

[tony76248]

I'll take the IBCA judging over KCBS any day.

 

[Rookie'48]

Wow - lotta different views here, some are kinda heated. For what it's worth, I've judged a grand total of three comps. At each of them, I asked my table captain to keep an eye on my scores and tell me later if mine were out of line with the other CBJs. At all three I was "in the ballpark" with the others. Does that make me a good judge? No, it doesn't, not yet, maybe not at all, but I'll give it my best honest opinion for each sample presented to my eyes, nose & pallet.
That being said, and unless I'm told not to, I will take my leftovers, put them in a baggie & place them in a small cooler to take home. If a particular sample was terrible, then I leave that one on the plate to be thrown away, if one was truly excellent (10 on a 2 to 9 scale), then that one will most likely be eaten right then & there.
It's been stated that each judge is presented with 1 1/2 to 2 pounds of food, just in the 4 main categories, not counting extra entries. I'm a big boy, 6' 2" & 265 (mostly belly), but to eat all of what is put in front of me wouldn't leave any room for beer. I do take at least 2 bites of each sample, but what do you think I should do with the rest?
Dave Compton
KCBS CBJ #22569
Class of 4-28-2007