Brisket advice needed on when to pull

185-190f

165 is going to continue cooking the brisket, so you definitely want to pull well before probe tender.

I also wonder if the convection of the smoker will impact how the hot hold goes. Even wrapped in foil or plastic wrap the air flow could make a difference in how it continues to cook.

What is your reason for holding at 165?

JAKs Q & brew said:

165 is going to continue cooking the brisket, so you definitely want to pull well before probe tender.

I also wonder if the convection of the smoker will impact how the hot hold goes. Even wrapped in foil or plastic wrap the air flow could make a difference in how it continues to cook.

What is your reason for holding at 165?

Click to expand...

For me, I hold at 150F. My reasoning is #1 My briskets are done when i want them to be done. #2 Cooking to 185-190F and holding at 150F for 12 hours+ produces a moister brisket and still "probe tender" #3 I hold at 150F because 165F if held 12 hours+ tends to be shred territory. ( while still moist )

JAKs Q & brew said:

165 is going to continue cooking the brisket, so you definitely want to pull well before probe tender.

I also wonder if the convection of the smoker will impact how the hot hold goes. Even wrapped in foil or plastic wrap the air flow could make a difference in how it continues to cook.

What is your reason for holding at 165?

Click to expand...

I agree 100% and would have to say pull it somewhere between 185 - 190 in the original poster's scenario, but I too am curious about the reason for holding at 165, as you really are risking over cooking and your brisket shredding when you go to slice it.

Personally, I have been experimenting lately to dial my process in with a 12+ hour heated hold in a warmer set to 140. I don't use the Goldee's method though, I use the foil boat. Originally I was waiting to boat until the thickest part of the flat was 180 (the part of the flat that is overlapped by the point), and pull it when the temp in the thickest part of the flat was 195. But that part takes the longest to come up to temp because the heat in my offset comes from the top down, and by that time the point would be 205 or higher and it would just fall apart when slicing. I noticed that the point and the flat would even out after boating so I started boating when the point hit 175 or so, and pulling the brisket between 192 - 195 in both the point and the thickest part the flat. That made a major difference, but I still feel like the point and the flat in the center of the brisket right under the point were coming out just a little over done. Not shredding but a little "grainy" as they say. My next attempt will be continue boating when the point hits 175 and pull the brisket at exactly 190 in the point and in the flat, but not temping the part of the flat that is overlapped by the point if that makes sense, ignoring that part and probing the thickest part of the flat before the point starts to overlap it. We'll see how that goes this coming weekend. If I feel the point and the overlapped middle of the brisket are still a little over then next weekend I'll drop my finishing temp to 187-188 and see how that does and keep lowering it until I get it dialed in where the point and the center of the brisket slice exactly how I want them. Also, when I pull the brisket, I take it out of the foil boat and wrap it in butcher paper immediately, pouring some of the juice from the boat on the paper and on top of the brisket. The reason I do that is so the brisket is not exposed during the cool down, or the rest. Some will say that will ruin the crunchy bark which is the reason for the foil boat, but that is not MY reason for the foil boat. I like the boat because it tends to let the flat catch up with the point and evens them out. I don't care about crunchy bark personally.

Is the reason for holding at 165 a perceived food safety issue or something like that? If so, I'll say this. I spoke to a food safety expert about this one time. He was a Serve Safe instructor who taught Food Manger and Food Handler courses for people in the restaurant industry. He told me that the guidance is that food hot held at 135 degrees is good for 8 hours, while food hot held at 140 or above is good indefinitely, BUT he said that is really meant for food held in the open in a hotel pan in a buffet type setting, like a pan of pulled pork or mac n cheese etc. You must constantly temp it to make sure the food doesn't drop below 135/140 depending on how long it will be held, ie... over or under 8 hours, and in his opinion it's really just better to stick to 140 either way.

He said something like a brisket being hot held in a holding cabinet is a totally different thing, because it's not exposed. His explanation was that if you cook a brisket to 185 - 210 or whatever your finishing temp is, and then you immediately wrap it as soon as you pull it out of the smoker, letting it rest down in temp to no lower than 140 before placing in a 140 degree warmer is not a problem. This (as he said) is not a problem because any bacteria inside or on the surface of the brisket would be dead when you pull the brisket out of the smoker, and the exterior of the brisket would still be way over 140 when you wrap it, meaning any bacteria that landed on it while moving it to your wrapping table would be killed instantly as would any bacteria that was on your foil or butcher paper once it makes contacts with the 140+ degree surface of the brisket, and the wrap acts as a barrier preventing any new bacteria from landing on the surface, especially if the wrap is foil or oil soaked butcher paper. Now this again is his words not mine but they made a lot of sense and stuck with me.... He said once the brisket is placed in the warmer, you would have to have some kind of space alien genetically modified super bacteria that could get inside the sealed warmer, survive the 140 or more degree temperature inside the warmer, and then somehow penetrate the wrap to get to the brisket, and survive the 140 degree or higher surface temperature. Long story short, not going to happen. He told me under this scenario even if the internal temperature of the brisket dropped below 140 during the hold, it would be fine, because there is no way bacteria can get to the brisket. This is pretty much why these restaurants hold at exactly 140 and you don't hear about them having problems with anyone getting sick. BUT the important thing here is you HAVE TO WRAP THE BRISKET IMMEDIATELY when you pull it. If you let it cool to 140 while it is unwrapped and exposed to the air then all of that is out the window and it may not be safe if there is a potential that the brisket drops below 140inetrnal temp during the heated hold. Even with the Goldee's method, they are wrapping it in foil with tallow immediately when they pull it, and THEN letting it rest down before they put in the 140 degree warmer.

I know that was long, but hopefully it made sense and was helpful. Again this info isn't from me, it came form a Serve Safe instructor who taught food safety classes to the restaurant industry for a living.

IMHO the only reason to hold for more than a few hours is to facilitate serving at a later time. There is no magical metamorphosis that takes place with extended holds. A tough or dry brisket is not going to magically become tender and juicy by a warm hold. Added (melted) beef tallow is not going to somehow enter the brisket and make it tender. All that will do instead is a) make things messier and b) soften the bark.

My very humble advice is to stick to the basics. KISS. Quality beef, proper technique during the cook taking into account air flow, the smoke, humidity, temps, and development of bark among other aspects, and pulling it at the right time.

Kevin James mentioned the point falling apart when slicing. Again, just mho and nothing but my subjective impression, but so many people misunderstand the nature of the point (no pun intended). The point is always going to be rather impossibly fatty. That fat prevents the point from ever slicing the same way as the flat. This is why so many experienced cooks opt to separate the flat from the point before starting the cook and why others separate it towards the end and cube the point for further cooking as burnt ends. The rest of us cook the point with the flat for the sake of taking the brunt of the heat-if you have air current as in a direct flow-and to help keep the entire brisket moist. Think of the point as a heat-sink.

Pull the brisket when a wooden skewer meets little resistance in the middle of the flat once through the hopefully crispy bark and/or when the brisket gets loose and floppy like a slab of meat-Jello. That may happen at at 195 or up to 210. Don't probe the point for temp as it will always run higher due to all of the fat and mislead you as to the how the flat is coming along.

If you wish to dismiss me and do your long holds with or without melted tallow etc. it is no skin off my nose. Suit yourself. I would simply ask if you would rather apply Carnauba wax to an old car with ruined paint or simply clean and dry a shiny new one.

Fsonicsmith said:

IMHO the only reason to hold for more than a few hours is to facilitate serving at a later time. There is no magical metamorphosis that takes place with extended holds. A tough or dry brisket is not going to magically become tender and juicy by a warm hold. Added (melted) beef tallow is not going to somehow enter the brisket and make it tender. All that will do instead is a) make things messier and b) soften the bark.

My very humble advice is to stick to the basics. KISS. Quality beef, proper technique during the cook taking into account air flow, the smoke, humidity, temps, and development of bark among other aspects, and pulling it at the right time.

Kevin James mentioned the point falling apart when slicing. Again, just mho and nothing but my subjective impression, but so many people misunderstand the nature of the point (no pun intended). The point is always going to be rather impossibly fatty. That fat prevents the point from ever slicing the same way as the flat. This is why so many experienced cooks opt to separate the flat from the point before starting the cook and why others separate it towards the end and cube the point for further cooking as burnt ends. The rest of us cook the point with the flat for the sake of taking the brunt of the heat-if you have air current as in a direct flow-and to help keep the entire brisket moist. Think of the point as a heat-sink.

Pull the brisket when a wooden skewer meets little resistance in the middle of the flat once through the hopefully crispy bark and/or when the brisket gets loose and floppy like a slab of meat-Jello. That may happen at at 195 or up to 210. Don't probe the point for temp as it will always run higher due to all of the fat and mislead you as to the how the flat is coming along.

If you wish to dismiss me and do your long holds with or without melted tallow etc. it is no skin off my nose. Suit yourself. I would simply ask if you would rather apply Carnauba wax to an old car with ruined paint or simply clean and dry a shiny new one.

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I agree with you on the long heated hold, that it will not magickly make a tough brisket tender. The reason I prefer it personally, and why I think it benefits a lot of people, is simply timing. There is no getting around the fact that a whole packer brisket is a long cook. For me, on my traditional flow offset they range anywhere from 12-14 hours. I just do not have the energy or the desire throw the brisket on late at night and pull an all nighter, and I wake up early every weekday for work. I don't want to wake up at the crack of dawn on a day off and give up sleep to cook a brisket. I also don't want to eat dinner at 12 midnight. With an overnight hold, I don't have to do any of that. Assuming I trim and season the night before, I can wake up at a normal time, get the brisket on the pit by say, 10-11AM, and it while it will be an all day cook, it will be done 10PM usually, maybe 12AM by the latest, I let it cool (wrapped) for an hour then in to the warmer at 140, and everything is done before I'm ready to go to bed. And then whenever I decide I want to slice in the next day, it's ready to go. I could slice in as soon as I wake up, I could wait and have it for lunch, or wait even longer and have for dinner (my preference). There is never any reason to worry about it not being ready by a specific planned serving time. So it is about convenience really, and for that reason i will never do it any other way.

In regards to the point, I agree with you there as well, but I prefer to cook my packers whole, restaurant style. I have also found, and this is based on my own personal opinions and experience which may differ for others... but any time I have ever taken a brisket to fully probe tender where the whole thing including the flat has zero resistance and feels like meat jello, no matter how long I let it rest, 2 hours, 4 hours or longer, the flat shreds when I slice it, and the point just completely falls apart like a mound of pulled pork. That's just not what I want. I feel the whole probe tender thing and how jiggly a brisket should feel is way over stated and for a new cook especially, it can lead to far more confusion than it is helpful. While I am still working on and dialing in my briskets, I can say that I pull mine when they are still a little "tight" by many standards, and I would do the same even without the long extended hot hold. I have found pulling in the low 190's the brisket is still moist, it holds together under it's own weight but pulls apart easily, and the fat and collagen render just fine and keep the brisket juicy, and nothing falls apart or shreds when I slice it. At this point I would never take the brisket to 200 or higher, and that goes for the flat and the point. To me that results in WAY over done every single time. But again, that's just me, and anyone else's milage may vary.

I don't take issue with any of the responses to my post, and again, I can not emphasize enough that there is no objective correct answer, just subjective opinions. This is part due to the reality that there are multiple different methods to obtain a moist tender whole packer and in part due to the subjectivity of what is good, great, and exceptional. Just to insert some levity and perspective, ever cook a whole hog? Talk about staying up all night....But a whole hog is maybe once a year for most of us and brisket is much more frequent. I cook semi-hot and fast. 275 to 300 to avoid the trap of sleep deprivation. The advantages are many. Better bark, less stall time, avoiding bitter smoke, less opening and closing the smoke chamber door. I am a big fan of the Meater and just letting it rip. I wrap at 165 to 190. My brisket is reliably serviceable. I don't claim to make the best or close. If I had achieved perfection I likely would sell my smoker and move on to something else.