Help dissecting scores and a complaint on my brisket score

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CentralOhioBBQ

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Just competed in the Ohio Smoked meats and BBQ festival, and contrary to how positive we were after turn ins, pretty disappointing to to finish 30th overall out of 40 teams. Any feedback from the box presentations, to understanding what the scores are telling me would be greatly appreciated. Negative feedback is welcome, you won't hurt my feelings and I would appreciate the brutal honestly.

Really confused on the Brisket scoring though guys, 38th out of 40 is a head scratcher. Now the flats finished way too early - so the flats (cooked 2 costco primes, 1 #16lb and 1 #20lb) sat in the hot box for literally 6 hours. It wasn't a top 15 box, but it wasn't 2nd to last either. They were pulled at 202 in the middle, and even after that long a rest had good tenderness, passed the "bend" test, pulled apart with little effort and had good flavor. A bit dry, but the slices that made the box took an au jus bath prior to boxing.

See attached feedback from one of the judges - and note - I have 8 slices in the box, and 15+ burnt ends. "I didn't get a slice because the pieces were inadequately cut"? What in the heck is that!!! That makes no sense to me - see the box.

Thoughts? Is there any way I can pursue additional feedback from the table to know what the judge is talking about? I need more of an explanation.
 
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It sounds like some of your pieces of brisket were attached to each other or somehow stuck together. It's very easy to think you have a good cut yet there is still a bit attached. A judge is not allowed to grab the pieces and separate them. If there are multiple pieces stuck together that counts as one piece.
 
^ that's probably what happened if I had to guess, it can't be anything else.

I always make sure I can verify that each slice is separated from the other.....I'm always afraid if I don't.
 
I can't say with certainty, but I could swear they were cut clean. I didn't know that rule. Nothing else would make sense.

Thoughts on appearance of the boxes?
 
Slices had to be stuck together.

Looks to be sliced a bit on the thick side, too, which could indicate overcooking.
 
After we slice, we move each slice individually to the jus bath just to ensure that the cuts were clean through. It is very easy to not totally cut through.
 
Did you place each slice in the box individually? You would know if there is any possibility of them not be cut through.

I'll give some feedback,

Brisket:
One thought for you to consider. Did you really have 15 burnt ends that were the bomb and the best. Reduce your chances for the judge to pick a bad one.

Pork:
MM haphazardly placed. Would look better if place as they were cut and you could see some green framing them

Rib:
Look dark and dry and not inviting

Chicken Box:
Looks enedible :)
 
From a judge who stays up with the rules, this is an inappropriate comment, period. You only have to present 6 pieces of meat. You can turn in 6 burnt ends if you would like, six slices, 3 slices and three burnt ends, or any combination thereof.

There is a continuing education question for judges that addresses this:

Which of the following is an illegal brisket entry?
a. Three slices and three burnt ends
b. Six slices and six burnt ends
c. Six slices rolled into rosettes
d. Eight slices and six burnt ends

Answer: C. Meat may not be sculpted into shapes. Although a. would not be received well by judges, it is still a legal entry because it is enough for six judges to sample.

I'm sorry that you ran into this judge's comment, but in retrospect, I think it was a poorly worded comment card. Initially I thought the judge was pissed at not getting a slice.

Edit: After looking at the score sheet scores of 6,6,6,7,8,9, the judge was not way out of line with scores. If anything, the judge giving the 9 is off.
 
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Question....if judge did not get a slice of brisket, then how was he/she able to score on taste and tenderness?

Brisket looked pretty good to me.

Ribs look too dark and dry.

Agree on making a better presentation on the pork.

Saw no picture of chicken.
 
As others have said its probably 2 slices stuck together. I've heard of boxes getting numbered wrong, but it's pretty rare.

The pork box looks a little messy. Make sure the strands of tubes are clean,it looks like you left some pieces of fat on them(can hurt taste/tenderness), and it's unappealing to me. I'm also not a fan of trying to trim out multiple muscles for the MM, I personally like just putting in the MM and I think it would clean up your presentation.

Ribs look too dark, possibly burnt in your pictures. Looks a little dry too.

For brisket I wouldn't load it up so much, just put the best pieces in the box. The border of burnt ends makes the box look cluttered.

<postscript>I'm a new cook so my advice may or may not be good advice</postscript>
 
fwdiii said:
Question....if judge did not get a slice of brisket, then how was he/she able to score on taste and tenderness?
Click to expand...

My assumption is the judge only was able to assign their score based on the BE. It is "possible" that they didn't score down for not having a slice of flat to sample as well, but rather, explaining what their score was based on.

It is also good information for you (the team) to be mindful of, should this same situation present itself in the future, and if you didn't turn in BE's, you would then have the 5 other judges adjust their appearance scores to a 1 as well. That would really hurt!

*****
As a side point, at least I still have Randy and David Qualls here :biggrin1:
 
JeffR said:
Did you place each slice in the box individually? You would know if there is any possibility of them not be cut through.

I'll give some feedback,

Brisket:
One thought for you to consider. Did you really have 15 burnt ends that were the bomb and the best. Reduce your chances for the judge to pick a bad one.

Pork:
MM haphazardly placed. Would look better if place as they were cut and you could see some green framing them

Rib:
Look dark and dry and not inviting

Chicken Box:
Looks enedible :)
Click to expand...


Good feedback - Thank you.
 
JeffR said:
Did you place each slice in the box individually? You would know if there is any possibility of them not be cut through.

I'll give some feedback,

Brisket:
One thought for you to consider. Did you really have 15 burnt ends that were the bomb and the best. Reduce your chances for the judge to pick a bad one.

Pork:
MM haphazardly placed. Would look better if place as they were cut and you could see some green framing them

Rib:
Look dark and dry and not inviting

Chicken Box:
Looks enedible :)
Click to expand...


And no, I didn't put them in individually.
 
Okie Sawbones said:
From a judge who stays up with the rules, this is an inappropriate comment, period. You only have to present 6 pieces of meat. You can turn in 6 burnt ends if you would like, six slices, 3 slices and three burnt ends, or any combination thereof.

There is a continuing education question for judges that addresses this:

Which of the following is an illegal brisket entry?
a. Three slices and three burnt ends
b. Six slices and six burnt ends
c. Six slices rolled into rosettes
d. Eight slices and six burnt ends

Answer: C. Meat may not be sculpted into shapes. Although a. would not be received well by judges, it is still a legal entry because it is enough for six judges to sample.

I'm sorry that you ran into this judge, because they make all judges look bad. I hope that you brought this to the attention of the reps. Only they have the authority to address this. And hopefully, this score was pitched. :tsk:

Edit: Sadly, I see that it wasn't pitched. I was focused on the comment card and didn't look at the score sheet.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's a judging problem, but more of a communication problem. We all don't know what those BE's tasted like. Maybe the judge was merely advising the cook that if he had gotten a slice, it may have been better scored?
 
agree with the others. Your slices were either not fully sliced. I've been there done that on ribs. Only I got a DQ as there was only 6 ribs in the box to start. In this case the judge still had your brisket, it was just only a BE piece. You did not get the DQ tough. And your score was probably not hurt much by this, luckily.
 
Qbert60 said:
I don't think it's a judging problem, but more of a communication problem. We all don't know what those BE's tasted like. Maybe the judge was merely advising the cook that if he had gotten a slice, it may have been better scored?
Click to expand...

It still seems like an inappropriate comment. Say nothing at all, or word it better, such as, "Sorry but I only got a burnt end due to slices being stuck, and had to score solely on the burnt end." The way it is worded, it sounds like the judge was irritated at not getting a slice. However, I could be wrong, based on the scores of 6-6-6-7-8-9, it doesn't sound like the judge was out of line with their score. Just word your comments carefully.
 
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I am not a judge, but do compete in 5-6 KCBS events per year, here is my feedback. I would give that box a 7.

- the slices are boxed, work on your trim to make slices fit
- the meat looks like it was jammed in there to make it all fit, put the best of the best in there and fill the box evenly.
- slices look ununiform and uneven (I am guessing you used slices from both briskets hence the variation in scores)
- the burnt ends look very dark and again uneven (some square some rectangle)

- Did you take meat from both briskets?

Like others have said I wouldn't argue so much about the scores, but I would really want to know what happened with someone not getting slices. Also if you are struggling with brisket maybe just put slices in, that way your not guessing if burnt ends or slices are whats dragging down your score.
 
luckysob said:
I am not a judge, but do compete in 5-6 KCBS events per year, here is my feedback. I would give that box a 7.

- the slices are boxed, work on your trim to make slices fit
- the meat looks like it was jammed in there to make it all fit, put the best of the best in there and fill the box evenly.
- slices look ununiform and uneven (I am guessing you used slices from both briskets hence the variation in scores)
- the burnt ends look very dark and again uneven (some square some rectangle)

- Did you take meat from both briskets?

Like others have said I wouldn't argue so much about the scores, but I would really want to know what happened with someone not getting slices. Also if you are struggling with brisket maybe just put slices in, that way your not guessing if burnt ends or slices are whats dragging down your score.
Click to expand...

I'm not taking issue with the scoring, only the comment that didn't make sense. It seems that's been cleared up - have to presume several slices were stuck together.

The slices were all from the same flat. Burnt ends all from the same point. I can't honestly say if they cam from the same packer collectively though. Everything was the same on them, any difference in flavor would be inherent in the meat itself.

All that being said, crowded box aside, the slices and BE were pretty decent. Still surprised at the scores.
 
5am said:
As others have said its probably 2 slices stuck together. I've heard of boxes getting numbered wrong, but it's pretty rare.

The pork box looks a little messy. Make sure the strands of tubes are clean,it looks like you left some pieces of fat on them(can hurt taste/tenderness), and it's unappealing to me. I'm also not a fan of trying to trim out multiple muscles for the MM, I personally like just putting in the MM and I think it would clean up your presentation.

Ribs look too dark, possibly burnt in your pictures. Looks a little dry too.

For brisket I wouldn't load it up so much, just put the best pieces in the box. The border of burnt ends makes the box look cluttered.

<postscript>I'm a new cook so my advice may or may not be good advice</postscript>
Click to expand...

The pictures are too small for a real assessment, but from what I can see, I agree with 5am. From what I see at the judging table, most cooks trim their briskets during the prep to be box sized. Butcher BBQ has a good video on this: https://www.butcherbbq.com/videos
 
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