I Warm Brine Chicken... Call the Authorities

This paper discusses the effects of salt on bacteria on p 26 http://www.foodhaccp.com/internetjournal/ijfsv4-3.pdf

It says: Salt lowers the water activity of a system and thus
renders conditions less favorable to microbial life. Its mode
of action is therefore comparable with that of drying; hence
the term “chemical drying” to describe the used of salt.
However, since the water activity value of saturated salt
solution is only about 0.75 and a number of microorganism
varieties are able to grow even below this limit, it is
impossible to protect a food stuff reliably from all microbial
attack by using salt alone, unless the flavor becomes
completely unacceptable (Kushner 1971). The foods to be
preserved can be immersed in solutions containing greater
or lesser amounts of salt (brines). Alternatively, dry salt can
be added to food. The resulting osmotic removal of water
from the food reduces the water activity to a level according
to the quantity of salt added.

A subsequent table indicates that salmonella can handle 0.95 water activity, not quite as concentrated as a saturated solution. This still leaves me thinking that salmonella could easily survive your 10% solution, and considering 90% of the chickens Consumer Reports tested were pathogenic (and half of those had antibiotic resistance)...

One last question. Are you the only one playing Russian roulette, or are you feeding family, most especially children, elderly, or immune compromised?

Meathead (aka Ribmeister)

Where's Gore?

He always has good info and life exp. On this matter.

Ill channel my inner gore but will probably get this wrong.

Remember the factory farmed food in the US is basically toxic. We need special handling to keep it safe compared to when farmed traditionaly. Countries in europe still have open air markets with chickens hanging in the breeze outside, no refrigeration. Now im not sure about nooks or crannies but bacteria is on surfaces of whole meats. If the surface environment is inhospitable they will not multiply.

How'd i do?

Im fast and loose with food saftey myself but not sure im gonna start warm brining myself

Lord, heated debate and theirs only 1 person on the OP side. Somebody said earlier, to each their own and they are exactly right.

Or maybe that you have to warm brine to get better penetration and moist chicken because u haven't figured out how to cook it right with a cold brine or without a brine at all....just a thought!!!!

You can be careful and take every precaution possible but if u play with dire enough, eventually your gonna get burned!

smoke ninja said:

Where's Gore?

He always has good info and life exp. On this matter.

Ill channel my inner gore but will probably get this wrong.

Remember the factory farmed food in the US is basically toxic. We need special handling to keep it safe compared to when farmed traditionaly. Countries in europe still have open air markets with chickens hanging in the breeze outside, no refrigeration. Now im not sure about nooks or crannies but bacteria is on surfaces of whole meats. If the surface environment is inhospitable they will not multiply.

How'd i do?

Im fast and loose with food saftey myself but not sure im gonna start warm brining myself

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It only takes one time through a Mexican fresh market, to make you wonder how there is any population left down there!

Ribmeister said:

Another point: You say "So aside from a pre-programmed "ick" factor, scientifically the chicken is sterile." Sterile means there is no chance of anything living within. Pasteurized means the microbial load is so low as to be safe. When we cook food we pasteurize, not sterilize. Also, some bugs, like botulinum, can form protective spores when conditions are inhospitable, and come out of the pore state when things are happier.

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Chicken's might be sterile, but the processing plants where they are killed, plucked, and parted most certainly are not. Cross contamination in the plant is what I would worry about.

JMO but I'm thinking inside not outside. Ha...and I normally tell people to think "outside" the box :icon_smile_tongue:

TedW said:

Some of us are not being very scientific. Some of us are connecting the dots so as to paint a picture that doesn't exist. Others are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

And some here think they're funny. You were prolly just as funny in science class.

Salmonella does NOT thrive in high saline. In a previous post someone misappropriated a comment that Salmonella likes salt. It tolerates about as much salt as is found in your intestine.

See http://aem.asm.org/content/77/5/1667.full Figure #2 We are dealing with a 1.37M solution of NaCl - way beyond the highest 1M NaCl levels represented in that graph.

Sooooo... there has still been zero science presented in this thread that would demonstrate a warm brine to be any worse of a health hazard than storing a chicken in a bag in the fridge. All data presented has shown the opposite.

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Perhaps you could have provided all the scientific evidence in the beginning to support your OP instead of having a posturing break dance. Unless you had an alterior motive from the very beginning of how you actually wanted this call the authorities "search google" thread to go.......

Screw the science...this is BBQ. Its more art than science. Sure u can use science to "enhance" the food. But damn, I think TedW started a post to ruffle feathers and just rile people up. Move on, I doubt people will warm brine except u Ted. Good luck.

TedW said:

My thread, and I should move on?

As you say, screw science

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I said screw THE science, just cook your food, share your method. People won't always agree, who cares. No point beating a dead horse with a stick.your just being argumentative and IMO its a bit ridiculous. But this is just my .02

Edit: sorry Ron was expressing my opinion about this thread. Thought I might get notched for it, worth the risk.

TedW said:

What ulterior motive might I have for any of this? No idea what you're talking about.

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Gotcha :becky:

bjarolim said:

Screw the science...this is BBQ. Its more art than science. Sure u can use science to "enhance" the food. But damn, I think TedW started a post to ruffle feathers and just rile people up. Move on, I doubt people will warm brine except u Ted. Good luck.

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I really have no dog in this "scientific discussion", just thought since you've been looking for a "scientific discussion" you would have started your OP with more like science'y stuff .

Edit: You got me by 1 minute Ron :doh:. Though I don't disagree with either side. I should point that out.

I agree, I've yet to be shown any scientific info to back up his claim of it being safe. It just seems like a poor place to inform some new cook that this is a"new" way of brining when all the experts have always said to make sure your brine is in the safe zone.

The USDA and ALL GOVERNMENT AGENCIES,for that matter,are known to err on the side of ridiculous safety standards,in MY OPINION.I believe in being safe but unless you are a microbe or food scientist,do not buy into all you read on Google.I have witnessed hog killings and beef butchering,back in tha day.It was far less sanitary than our government requires.That is all.

TedW said:

Nothing can grow in 1 gallon of water and 1 cup of pickling salt.

So aside from a pre-programmed "ick" factor, scientifically the chicken is sterile.

I use farm-fresh, never frozen local chickens. No injected brines when I get them.

I dry-brine beef, some pork cuts. Chicken is more porous, and the brine spices mildly flavor the meat pretty deep.

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I don't disagree with some of what you say, we definitely seem to err waaaaaaay on the side of caution. I agree that your brine definitely inhibits bacterial growth at any temp, it inhibits it much more at lower temps but even at room temp it slows growth. I do however think you overstate salts effectiveness at killing bacteria.....you add 1 cup of pickling salt (about 220grams I believe) to a gallon of water (about 3785 grams) so that's about 6% salt solution I believe....assuming that a 6% salt solution will kill bacteria is misguided....assuming it will make your brine sterile is dangerous. Not so much for the chicken, proper cooking will almost definitely kill any dangerous bugs....but the real risk is cross contamination....your brine splashing on the counter and contaminating other foods etc...plus just giving a person a false sense of security. Salt concentration need to be at least 20% to assume bacterial kill.

80g/l is still less than 10% salt content...my issue is you saying that will sterilize and kill all bacteria...im not saying your warm brine chicken is bad news.....but saying that the salt makes your brine sterile and completely safe is misguided, would you drizzle your brine on your salad and eat it? If not then don't say that cross contamination isn't an issue....cross contamination is an issue in the fridge too....the fridge kills zero bacteria and I haven't read where anyone said it did. Neither the fridge or a brine or a refrigerated brine is a sterile, bacteria free place....do what you want but I don't want someone who hasn't brined anything reading this and thinking "salt kills everything" and then go make too weak of a brine, leave it on the counter all day and have a salmonella factory brewing and then get sick because of something he read on the Internet.