Help dissecting scores and a complaint on my brisket score

Okie Sawbones said:
From a judge who stays up with the rules, this is an inappropriate comment, period. You only have to present 6 pieces of meat. You can turn in 6 burnt ends if you would like, six slices, 3 slices and three burnt ends, or any combination thereof.
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Really? I just took the KCBS judging class in March and am almost positive they said if you do multiples, it had to be at least 6 of each type. Maybe I'm misremembering or that was a recommendation or something.
 
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Judge 3 was happy, probably got about 1/2 pound of brisket to take home. Seriously, that should be a valuable comment card. I would assume that Judge 1 judged 'what was presented', which was just a cube. You had enough low taste and tenderness scores that something was off besides one judge not getting a slice. Maybe your slices were good, but the cubes were tight and fatty.

You also hit a pretty tough brisket table based on average scores. Last on a low scoring table is usually going to be something close to DAL.

Your pork, on the other hand, hit a high scoring table with judge averages of 32-34+. In reality, you probably deserved a bit higher placing on brisket and a bit lower on pork.

Your scores and table placing were roughly average for chicken and ribs and below average on pork and brisket. I would put in more work on the big meats, but chicken and ribs have some room to go as well. Look at some boxes online and honestly compare them to yours. If a box looks amateur, it is hard to pull 9's. It has to look the part.

The good news is I think you are probably leaving about 20 points on the table in the box building phase (selection, layout, saucing). Your cooking could easily be top 1/2, but the box is what gets scored. If the slices are better than the cubes, leave the cubes out. In any case, don't put 15 cubes in. Concentrate on finding the BEST 7-8, tender, uniform cubes. If you cook two briskets, sample both and select the best one for taste and tenderness. Get your slice thickness right and cut through. Unless both MM were outstanding, find the best one and make it look like a winner with uniform spacing and slices laid in sequence. You get the idea.
 
sudsandswine said:
Really? I just took the KCBS judging class in March and am almost positive they said if you do multiples, it had to be at least 6 of each type. Maybe I'm misremembering or that was a recommendation or something.
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I agree it has been said that if a cook does multiple presentations, it is "recommended" to provide six of type, but not required. Especially if you are mixing types chicken pieces.
 
Okie Sawbones said:
It still seems like an inappropriate comment. Say nothing at all, or word it better, such as, "Sorry but I only got a burnt end due to slices being stuck, and had to score solely on the burnt end." The way it is worded, it sounds like the judge was irritated at not getting a slice. However, I could be wrong, based on the scores of 6-6-6-7-8-9, it doesn't sound like the judge was out of line with their score. Just word your comments carefully.
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Yes. I understand you're busy and don't have time to make elaborate comments, but this was misleading to an extent and could've been more specific.
 
CentralOhioBBQ said:
Yes. I understand you're busy and don't have time to make elaborate comments, but this was misleading to an extent and could've been more specific.
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I see it different, you should be damn thankful they spent the time to fill one out or you would have done the same thing at the next contest.

It's your responsibility to find out what they are talking about, in which you did.

Learn your lesson from this nice judge, make sure everything you cut has been separated before you box it.:thumb:
 
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5am said:
As others have said its probably 2 slices stuck together. I've heard of boxes getting numbered wrong, but it's pretty rare.

The pork box looks a little messy. Make sure the strands of tubes are clean,it looks like you left some pieces of fat on them(can hurt taste/tenderness), and it's unappealing to me. I'm also not a fan of trying to trim out multiple muscles for the MM, I personally like just putting in the MM and I think it would clean up your presentation.

Ribs look too dark, possibly burnt in your pictures. Looks a little dry too.

For brisket I wouldn't load it up so much, just put the best pieces in the box. The border of burnt ends makes the box look cluttered.

<postscript>I'm a new cook so my advice may or may not be good advice</postscript>
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I agree with this assessment. If anything, the appearance scores (except for that 6 for brisket appearance) are generous.

But, what killed you with brisket was taste. I would work on that and being careful that everything is cut through.
 
Burnt at Both Endz said:
I see it different, you should be damn thankful they spent the time to fill one out or you would have done the same thing at the next contest.

It's your responsibility to find out what they are talking about, in which you did.

Learn your lesson from this nice judge, make sure everything you cut has been separated before you box it.:thumb:
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Nah, if you take the time to comment, which I appreciate, be clear.
 
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CentralOhioBBQ said:
Yes. I understand you're busy and don't have time to make elaborate comments, but this was misleading to an extent and could've been more specific.
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It was to me too, initially, but as Burnt said, at least you got a comment card.

The last contest that I judged, where we had 6 or 7 entries each time, I tried to write comment cards on every entry, just to see if I could do it. I've seen various people say it can be done. I could NOT do it and write down anything meaningful, just check boxes. I wish we had more time, but that seems unlikely. So back to commenting on 7s or less.
 
Okie Sawbones said:
However, I could be wrong, based on the scores of 6-6-6-7-8-9, it doesn't sound like the judge was out of line with their score. Just word your comments carefully.
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Agree here. Those are consistently not good taste scores. So seems like the judges were on the same page. Also three tenderness scores were 7-7-6 which also is not great, but shows consistency in that.
 
Wow! I just check in now and then to see what's really happening with the Pit Masters once and awhile...Backing out slowly now. :icon_shy
 
You have some nice bark on the BE's, but no bark on the slices? I would put fewer BE's in the box - like one line only in the front or in the back. Your slices look a little thick, which unless your brisket is falling apart overdone, is going to make it come across tougher and make it more chewy. I would slice them a little thinner, and put 8-9 slices in. You need to work on the symmetry when you place the slices in the box - the slices in the rear of the box are way out of alignment with the rest.

The judge would have done you bigger favor to let you know by checking a couple of boxes why they gave you the score they did. A few of them really didn't like your taste, so the next time you cook, really evaluate your beefy flavor(injection/foiling liquid), smoke (creosote/bitter?), salt, and sauce. You might try and wrangle a judge after they are done judging the contest to see if they will come over to your tent and tell you what they think of the brisket, or ask another team to do the same.

Also remember that your Costco Prime is going up against the top teams cooking SRF Black/Gold and the vaunted A9's, so you need to get A LOT of flavor out of those Primes, and you need to cook them perfectly. I think the primes are easier to get good BE's out of, but they are not as nice on the slices.
 
sudsandswine said:
Really? I just took the KCBS judging class in March and am almost positive they said if you do multiples, it had to be at least 6 of each type. Maybe I'm misremembering or that was a recommendation or something.
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The rules state "Each contestant must submit at least six (6) portions of meat in an approved container." So portion would be a rib (as they must be presented with the bone... and I saw one this year that wasn't!) or any combination of pieces and/or enough other meat from chicken/hen to make up adequate portions (which could be sliced, chopped, pulled), any combination of brisket or pork slices, pulled or chopped meat for 6 portions. So even something as unusual as 1 drumette and enough pulled thigh meat for 3 portions, and 2 breast slices would still be a legal chicken entry. But honestly if you feel strongly enough about your food to do a combination entry, for example... money muscle slices, plugs and pulled pork... have enough for each judge to get some of each.
 
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CentralOhioBBQ said:
Just competed in the Ohio Smoked meats and BBQ festival, and contrary to how positive we were after turn ins, pretty disappointing to to finish 30th overall out of 40 teams. Any feedback from the box presentations, to understanding what the scores are telling me would be greatly appreciated. Negative feedback is welcome, you won't hurt my feelings and I would appreciate the brutal honestly.

Really confused on the Brisket scoring though guys, 38th out of 40 is a head scratcher. Now the flats finished way too early - so the flats (cooked 2 costco primes, 1 #16lb and 1 #20lb) sat in the hot box for literally 6 hours. It wasn't a top 15 box, but it wasn't 2nd to last either. They were pulled at 202 in the middle, and even after that long a rest had good tenderness, passed the "bend" test, pulled apart with little effort and had good flavor. A bit dry, but the slices that made the box took an au jus bath prior to boxing.

See attached feedback from one of the judges - and note - I have 8 slices in the box, and 15+ burnt ends. "I didn't get a slice because the pieces were inadequately cut"? What in the heck is that!!! That makes no sense to me - see the box.

Thoughts? Is there any way I can pursue additional feedback from the table to know what the judge is talking about? I need more of an explanation.
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Photo's are always a little deceiving with lighting and all. I was glad to see your appearance scores on the pork was strong despite having the placement orientation turned 90° in the box. I'm not in that group but some judges are used to the more traditional face view of the slices. That said I would have scored the pork a 7/8 because the arrangement and some of the slicing was uneven. On the ribs, the saucing looks a hair thick and gloppy... again I would have scored a 7/8, so even with small dings these boxes were still above average to very good in my eye.

It sounds like you figured out the comment card and the judge that mentioned the non-separating slices. Although voluntary... if the judge that didn't get a slice didn't fill out a comment card letting you know about that, I'll bet the TC (or another judge) dropped a hint that it would be beneficial... and it is. Although the judge shouldn't score down for the missed slice... it looks like that judge didn't care for the taste or tenderness of the 1 or maybe 2 BE's that they took (sure they could have taken more than 1 BE). Had I been filling out the comment card I would have elaborated on the 6 and most likely the 7 by using the check boxes.
 
Okie Sawbones said:
It was to me too, initially, but as Burnt said, at least you got a comment card.

The last contest that I judged, where we had 6 or 7 entries each time, I tried to write comment cards on every entry, just to see if I could do it. I've seen various people say it can be done. I could NOT do it and write down anything meaningful, just check boxes. I wish we had more time, but that seems unlikely. So back to commenting on 7s or less.
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I bet the Reps just wanted to throttle you all that extra work you caused them
Ed
 
didisea said:
You have some nice bark on the BE's, but no bark on the slices? I would put fewer BE's in the box - like one line only in the front or in the back. Your slices look a little thick, which unless your brisket is falling apart overdone, is going to make it come across tougher and make it more chewy. I would slice them a little thinner, and put 8-9 slices in. You need to work on the symmetry when you place the slices in the box - the slices in the rear of the box are way out of alignment with the rest.

The judge would have done you bigger favor to let you know by checking a couple of boxes why they gave you the score they did. A few of them really didn't like your taste, so the next time you cook, really evaluate your beefy flavor(injection/foiling liquid), smoke (creosote/bitter?), salt, and sauce. You might try and wrangle a judge after they are done judging the contest to see if they will come over to your tent and tell you what they think of the brisket, or ask another team to do the same.

Also remember that your Costco Prime is going up against the top teams cooking SRF Black/Gold and the vaunted A9's, so you need to get A LOT of flavor out of those Primes, and you need to cook them perfectly. I think the primes are easier to get good BE's out of, but they are not as nice on the slices.
Click to expand...

Great feedback - thank you!
 
thirdeye said:
Photo's are always a little deceiving with lighting and all. I was glad to see your appearance scores on the pork was strong despite having the placement orientation turned 90° in the box. I'm not in that group but some judges are used to the more traditional face view of the slices. That said I would have scored the pork a 7/8 because the arrangement and some of the slicing was uneven. On the ribs, the saucing looks a hair thick and gloppy... again I would have scored a 7/8, so even with small dings these boxes were still above average to very good in my eye.

It sounds like you figured out the comment card and the judge that mentioned the non-separating slices. Although voluntary... if the judge that didn't get a slice didn't fill out a comment card letting you know about that, I'll bet the TC (or another judge) dropped a hint that it would be beneficial... and it is. Although the judge shouldn't score down for the missed slice... it looks like that judge didn't care for the taste or tenderness of the 1 or maybe 2 BE's that they took (sure they could have taken more than 1 BE). Had I been filling out the comment card I would have elaborated on the 6 and most likely the 7 by using the check boxes.
Click to expand...

Good points. Thanks.
 
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