Those dam judges

[TooSaucedToPork]

The "bias" I speak of is the exact thing you are presenting. Cooks do this, cooks spend this, cooks deserve this.
Cooks decide to practice their skills at a BBQ event (period).
Judges decide to come to this event and practice their skill also (period).
My preference is to judge a Mike and Theresa contest because of how they run it. It's obvious that Mike the cook has a preference, it's not good, it's not bad, it is just there.
Ed

I take offense to this.

There should be a bias to the cooks (period).

Any idiot with $75 dollars can pay for a judging class and judge my food which I have spent thousands on equipment, food, entry fees and lodging. A judge has invested $75 in a class and possibly a hotel for the contest, I have spent more than a judge just entering a contest.

The judges need to be educated better to understand the "free" food they score (and carry away with them in their cute little coolers) is actually my blood, sweat, and tears. Yes there is a bias to the cooks, anyone can pay $75 and become a judge...how many people can cook competition quality BBQ...not many.

I'm not trashing judges (I am one) they are needed to make this sport work. I'm just saying that, yes judges are important, but the cooks (and good reps) are the stars of the show...People don't pay a gate fee to see a bunch of judges.

I'm tired of spending my hard earned money on a contest only to be thrown out of the top 5 by that dang judge #5...(its always that guy). We as cooks are doing our part...many judges need to be better trained to do theirs.

Sorry for the rant, its a topic that has needed fixing for years...IMHO

 

[Bentley]

I take offense to this.

Any idiot with $75 dollars can pay for a judging class and judge my food which I have spent thousands on equipment, food, entry fees and lodging. A judge has invested $75 in a class and possibly a hotel for the contest, I have spent more than a judge just entering a contest.

Maybe the teams that have spent the most on equipment and supplies need to be given more points for that effort. Maybe if I know who has spent the most on equipment and supplies I can judge more accordingly...just sayin.

 

[PorkQPine]

"Any idiot with $75 dollars can pay for a judging class and judge my food which I have spent thousands on equipment, food, entry fees and lodging. A judge has invested $75 in a class and possibly a hotel for the contest, I have spent more than a judge just entering a contest.

The judges need to be educated better to understand the "free" food they score (and carry away with them in their cute little coolers) is actually my blood, sweat, and tears. Yes there is a bias to the cooks, anyone can pay $75 and become a judge...how many people can cook competition quality BBQ...not many.

I'm not trashing judges (I am one) they are needed to make this sport work."

I guess you define trashing different than I do. BTW, it takes more than one judge to toss you out of the top 5. After 5 years judging and cooking with a team once a year, i can tell you that I have seen many cases where more than one sample in the box was not good. This is especially true with ribs and chicken since they are separate pieces. I also see burnt ends ruin a turn-in occasionally when the burnt ends are not as good as the slices and the same goes for pork where the pulled and chunks are not of the same quality. I know almost every CBJ in N.Cal and the reps who cover our territory and I can tell you that they are serious and do their best.

I have been an advocate of continuing education for CBJ's and also CBJ's should cook with a team at least once a year. Once the teams get to know the judges I think that a lot of the animosity directed toward the judges will diminish.

 

[Rookie'48]

...Any idiot with $75 dollars can pay for a judging class and judge my food which I have spent thousands on equipment, food, entry fees and lodging.

...the "free" food they score (and carry away with them in their cute little coolers) is actually my blood, sweat, and tears. Yes there is a bias to the cooks, anyone can pay $75 and become a judge...how many people can cook competition quality BBQ...not many.

I'm not trashing judges (I am one)

Ok, I guess that I'm one of the "idiots" that paid for a judging class in early 2007. I was a part-time member of a cooking team & I wanted to judge maybe two or three comps a year while cooking five or six. An injury to my lower back put my competitive cooking out of the question, at least for any more than one or two comps a year, so I decided to spend more of my time judging.

I have judged over sixty contests in the past five years, the vast majority of them 100 miles or more from home. I normally take my travel trailer to an RV park near the comp and show up on the grounds around 6 pm to visit with old friends and meet new ones. Yes, I have a "cute little" cooler that I pull around on a two-wheeler. Mine usually has Busch Light and a whole bunch of different smoked cheeses in it that I'm quite willing to share as I wander around. By the way, my cooler has yet to see the inside of a judging tent.

I usually leave the contest grounds around 11:30 pm after leaving my two-wheeler / cooler stashed at a friend's spot. In the morning I'm back to judge some damn fine (for the most part) BBQ. As I walk into the grounds I wave and say "Good morning & good luck" to any cook who looks my way, whether I know them or not.

After the judging is over I'm back out on the grounds visiting with friends, answering questions about how the food was, maybe sharing a beer or giving my opinion on their leftovers. When it's time for the awards I'm right there cheering on all of the competitors, but especially those that I know personally.

And as far as cooking ability goes, I know that I can do better than some of the turn-ins that I've seen. The majority of comp cooks can cook circles around me and that's a fact - but there are a few ...

So yeah, I guess that you've got more dollars wrapped up in this hobby than I do. But I'll be damned if you've got more time or commitment invested than I do.

 

[Warthog]

Maybe the teams that have spent the most on equipment and supplies need to be given more points for that effort. Maybe if I know who has spent the most on equipment and supplies I can judge more accordingly...just sayin.

Now that is a load of crap. Judge on how much a team spent. Food should be judged on its merits only. Your saying the guy with the Jambo should get higher points then the the guy using a WSM?

 

[Jeff_in_KC]

Now that is a load of crap. Judge on how much a team spent. Food should be judged on its merits only. Your saying the guy with the Jambo should get higher points then the the guy using a WSM?

I think you missed the sarcasm tags. :wink:

This is an interesting thread. I think if anyone uses the term "remedial", we should turn and run...FAST! What better way to alienate judges than tell them they are now having to take "Remedial Judging"? What an insult! I am all for continuing education for CBJs. We have a problem with generations of judges. This was a point I made while campaigning in 2009. We have long time judges who learned years ago under different circumstances and sets of rules by totally different people than are teaching now. All judges need to be on the same page and there are ways we can do that. It's not remedial at all. I will say this though - getting upset that one judge was two points off everyone else is no cause for alarm. If I'm getting 8's and 9's and one gives me a 7 or two, that's the breaks. Sorry but it's the truth. Now if I'm getting 6's or below from one judge when everything else is am 8 or 9, that's a little different. Good food is good food and most judges will recognize that. I think the issue is that some judges just think that because of the definitions assigned to the scoring numbers, giving you a seven is paying you a compliment. It's above the average but not outstanding. And we don't all cook outstanding food every week. Maybe we like to THINK we do but if you're honest with yourself, you'll have to admit there were probably things you could have done better to get a better score. I have blamed judges before but in the last two years, we've really learned a lot about what we're turning in. And 95% of the time, judges get it right. Just sayin'...

 

[Rookie'48]

Maybe the teams that have spent the most on equipment and supplies need to be given more points for that effort. Maybe if I know who has spent the most on equipment and supplies I can judge more accordingly...just sayin.

Now that is a load of crap. Judge on how much a team spent. Food should be judged on its merits only. Your saying the guy with the Jambo should get higher points then the the guy using a WSM?

I think you missed the sarcasm tags. :wink:

Bentley ..... sarcastic? ..... say it ain't so! :thumb:

 

[Bentley]

Now that is a load of crap. Judge on how much a team spent. Food should be judged on its merits only. Your saying the guy with the Jambo should get higher points then the the guy using a WSM?

I think you missed the sarcasm tags. :wink:

Ding,ding,ding...We have a winner!

 

[Slamdunkpro]

It really needs to stop being an us vs them thing. Sure, cooks spend more money, but they also have the oppurtunity for a greater financial return. The only real compensation that a judge gets is possibly a goodie bag and left overs (unless it's a comp that prohibits that - but that's another pot to stir).

 

[Jorge]

I think you missed the sarcasm tags. :wink:

This is an interesting thread. I think if anyone uses the term "remedial", we should turn and run...FAST! What better way to alienate judges than tell them they are now having to take "Remedial Judging"? What an insult! I am all for continuing education for CBJs. We have a problem with generations of judges. This was a point I made while campaigning in 2009. We have long time judges who learned years ago under different circumstances and sets of rules by totally different people than are teaching now. All judges need to be on the same page and there are ways we can do that. It's not remedial at all. I will say this though - getting upset that one judge was two points off everyone else is no cause for alarm. If I'm getting 8's and 9's and one gives me a 7 or two, that's the breaks. Sorry but it's the truth. Now if I'm getting 6's or below from one judge when everything else is am 8 or 9, that's a little different. Good food is good food and most judges will recognize that. I think the issue is that some judges just think that because of the definitions assigned to the scoring numbers, giving you a seven is paying you a compliment. It's above the average but not outstanding. And we don't all cook outstanding food every week. Maybe we like to THINK we do but if you're honest with yourself, you'll have to admit there were probably things you could have done better to get a better score. I have blamed judges before but in the last two years, we've really learned a lot about what we're turning in. And 95% of the time, judges get it right. Just sayin'...

Now that is a load of crap. Judge on how much a team spent. Food should be judged on its merits only. Your saying the guy with the Jambo should get higher points then the the guy using a WSM?

Maybe the teams that have spent the most on equipment and supplies need to be given more points for that effort. Maybe if I know who has spent the most on equipment and supplies I can judge more accordingly...just sayin.

It really needs to stop being an us vs them thing. Sure, cooks spend more money, but they also have the oppurtunity for a greater financial return. The only real compensation that a judge gets is possibly a goodie bag and left overs (unless it's a comp that prohibits that - but that's another pot to stir).

Bentley is known for going over the top, from time to time, to make a point. I don't always agree with the method or the point, but he's put some thought into it and is willing to stand behind it.

Jeff made a point that I strongly agree with. Judges usually get it right. Judge 5 isn't always wrong. Sometimes they get a rib that looked as good as the others, but just wasn't! It happens. It's not like a pork box where you can pull a little piece off of everything going into the box to make sure it has the right flavor etc... With the new software, given time, it will be possible to identify those judges that are consistently scoring outside of the norm and then address those issues. The overwhelming majority of judges take the task seriously, and do a phenomenal job. In Texas we don't use CBJs, but draw people off the street. They usually get it right as well. What KCBS offers is a little more consistency, and that's something I think we need to focus on and improve where possible.

Slamdunkpro, raises a fair point as well. Judges don't have the financial investment a cook does, but they've invested their time and deserve courtesy and respect for their contributions as well. If you think there are regional flavor profiles in KCBS then I invite you to come cook in Texas or talk to Texas cooks about what changes some make when cooking at a VFW etc...

99% of the issues that cooks have, are probably with 1% of the judges. Cooks and judges alike should probably think about that before speaking, and I'll raise my hand and admit that I've been guilty in the past. You can't judge without cooks, but a cook is going to be be happier more often than not with an experienced judge.

 

[Bentley]

And we don't all cook outstanding food every week. Maybe we like to THINK we do but if you're honest with yourself, you'll have to admit there were probably things you could have done better to get a better score.

Bitter pill to swollow, but so true! Specially when a a team member tells you!

 

[Bigdog]

One thought is since ALL CBJ's have to be active KCBS members and each have a renew date, why not incorporate a 10 - 15 question yearly test dealing with straightforward questions dealing with the KCBS rules and procedures (not like that goofy ass Masters test). Pass it you may judge next year, fail and not pass a second time, no card-no judge next year.

You do bring up some good points Ed, but this will NEVER happen as KCBS's "dirty little secret" is that the judges membership dues is the CASH COW of the KCBS. Now while I'm reletively sure that they would LIKE to have something like this happen, it never will IMHO.

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

Maybe the teams that have spent the most on equipment and supplies need to be given more points for that effort. Maybe if I know who has spent the most on equipment and supplies I can judge more accordingly...just sayin.

I didn't mean it the way it sounds.

We have alot invested...more than judges. Even the guy with a homebuilt UDS has more invested...

I'm talking about the judges that need a continuing education course. Or the few that have a high and mighty attitude (we've all met them) that think they know it all. No one knows it all, none of us ever will as this sport is a constantly changing monster.

That is why education is important...

Rookie - you are probably a shining example of a great judge. You hang with the teams, get to know us, follow the rules, and judge based on experience, education, and rules...

From what I've seen around here, Half (maybe a little less) of judges don't do this.

It was a generalization and I am sorry. In my area of the country (West New York) We have an overabudance of judges, many very new, in need of education. I have taken off my team shirt and gone and stood next to the judging tent as they were exiting judging for the day, listening to conversations.

At the last contest I did this - There were 4 people (all CBJ's) saying how none of their entries tasted like Famous Dave, or Smokey Bones, or (insert restaurant here), so I marked them as a six...or a seven. I heard two more judges, wives that took a class to come along w their husbands.

Wife 1 - "I don't really LIKE PORK...I just give it all 7's, sometimes slip an 8 in there, or I look at Daniel's sheet and write what he does."
Wife 2 - "Thats how I feel about the steak they gave us, I do the same with Charles"

I thought..Steak??? its brisket...WTF?!?! She doesn't even know what she is judging

I STORMED AWAY...Thats 6 people I overheard that should not be judging. At least not judging without MORE EDUCATION. Thats 5 CBJ's (all but 1 had nametags) that screwed alot of teams.

We as cooks constantly practice and educate ourselves...The judges should be given the same opportunity. I say opportunity because it benifits everyone in the organization.

I'm not trashing judges, just saying there needs to be a high standard and a way to ensure that high standard is maintained

 

[Stoke&Smoke]

The "bias" I speak of is the exact thing you are presenting. Cooks do this, cooks spend this, cooks deserve this.
Cooks decide to practice their skills at a BBQ event (period).
Judges decide to come to this event and practice their skill also (period).
My preference is to judge a Mike and Theresa contest because of how they run it. It's obvious that Mike the cook has a preference, it's not good, it's not bad, it is just there.
Ed

Ed, I have to respectfully disagree. It is a BBQ cooking competition. As with any competion that involves judges, (olympics, pillsbury bake off, and everything in between) the contest is about those competing, not the judges, however important the judges may be to the event.

So the governing body, and their representatives owe it to the competitors to ensure they are judged as fairly as possible. There is a slant, and there should be.

I believe what many others have said already, there is a very small minority of judges causing issues, confusion, etc. I think that tracking would enable KCBS to determine which judges are consistently out of synch with their fellow judges, if the software used has that funtionality.

I haven't judged in 4 years, and would certainly want to attend some sort of refresher were I to consider it.

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

The fact of the matter is, Cooks pay to be at a contest, and expect good judges. The best and most well trained judges possible.

If a cook turns in bad food it hurts that cook.

If there are bad judges, or poorly trained judges it hurts the 4,5,or 6 Teams entries they judged. And that uneducated judge just judged at least 4 catagories.Thats 16, 20, or 26 teams that just got screwed out of a low dropped score. Yeah the arguement is there that that low dropped score takes care of bad judges, that is wrong. It is supposed to be there to get rid of a low opinion of that entry by a good well trained judge that just didn't like it.

I like the Olympics reference earlier. WATCH THE SCORES. They are educated judges, and the scores are all very close, they just drop the lowest score. It is not 2-3 full points under the other scores.

Educated and Fair judges are important...

 

[Jorge]

I like the Olympics reference earlier. WATCH THE SCORES. They are educated judges, and the scores are all very close, they just drop the lowest score. It is not 2-3 full points under the other scores.

Educated and Fair judges are important...

In fairness, while that Olympic judging is also subjective, it's a single performance being judged. In BBQ each judge gets a separate sample. It's unrealistic to expect each rib to be the same, each and every time.

I understand your point, but the analogy doesn't carry over to BBQ.

 

[Bentley]

At the last contest I did this - There were 4 people (all CBJ's) saying how none of their entries tasted like Famous Dave, or Smokey Bones, or (insert restaurant here), so I marked them as a six...or a seven. I heard two more judges, wives that took a class to come along w their husbands.

Those are down right scary statements, BBQ Restaurants must be a lot better in Western New York then they are out here in SoCal!

Wife 1 - "I don't really LIKE PORK...I just give it all 7's, sometimes slip an 8 in there, or I look at Daniel's sheet and write what he does."
Wife 2 - "Thats how I feel about the steak they gave us, I do the same with Charles"

Not sure if Daniel & Charles are spouse or significant others, and I am assuming Wife 1 & 2 are buddies, if those statements are true, under no circumstances should the spouces be sitting together, and we are advised by the Reps here in CA that they would prefer buddies not sit together either.

So it sounds like your Reps are dropping the ball on those examples!

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

In fairness, while that Olympic judging is also subjective, it's a single performance being judged. In BBQ each judge gets a separate sample. It's unrealistic to expect each rib to be the same, each and every time.

I understand your point, but the analogy doesn't carry over to BBQ.

I understand your point, and acknowledge the truth in it.

I'm talking about tracking judge scoring like they do in the olympics. If a judge is not fair or is not judging by the rules, they no longer judge...or are re-educated. The point I was trying to make was that well-educated judges scores are usually consistent. Yes, sometimes there is a wiley piece of chicken that is terrible. But if you see that a judge is consistantly scoring different than the others there needs to be a conversation. You gotta find the outliers and re-educate or eliminate them to give all teams a fair shot.

I know this is probably impossible, but it would be a great day for KCBS...

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

Not sure if Daniel & Charles are spouse or significant others, and I am assuming Wife 1 & 2 are buddies, if those statements are true, under no circumstances should the spouces be sitting together, and we are advised by the Reps here in CA that they would prefer buddies not sit together either.

So it sounds like your Reps are dropping the ball on those examples![/QUOTE]

This conversation I overheard just outside the beer tent. The Ladies were waiting on glasses on wine brought over by their husband/significant other. Now whether they were talking about the contest I was at or another contest I do not know, but that was the conversation. The reps we had were awesome, and I don't believe they would have allowed buddies/S.O's to sit together...but things can slip by you when you deal with 60-70 judges

 

[Slamdunkpro]

Ya know,,,,,,,,,

I've been reading this and the other BoD / KCBS fix threads for a while now and after the last couple of posts something jumped out at me.

A lot of the issues that cooks/judges/organizers are having seem to be Rep issues. Examples:

• In the above posts - buddies & SO's seated at the same table
• Pork collars & the 5lb rule - when was the last time you saw a rep with a scale?
• Judges not liking pork / chicken skin / whatever = low scores - where is the rep action at the event?
• Inconsistent judging instruction
• Parting pork and putting in back in the cooker - When have you ever seen a rep spot check a cooker?
• Incorrect application of the rules

Don't get me wrong, I know a number of reps and most are hard working, knowledgeable & involved in the event, but I have seen some that just go through the motions and never leave the scoring / judging area. Maybe the new BOD should add rep performance tracking & rep remedial training tests to their agenda. They could look at how many issues contests have and who the rep is - maye there's a pattern.


Serious post.