Taste? Texture? Taste? Texture?

[Hub]

Giving taste the highest weight in scoring makes great sense! It is the basic reason for competition because it absolutely cannot be described and it is different for all of us. Appearance and texture are important to the overall effect, but taste is the attribute that nobody can ever perfectly predict.

Appearance and tenderness could be computerized, but taste will never be.

 

[NRA4Life]

As a judge, I think texture/tenderness is something that is apparent before flavor with 3/4 meats. I bite into a piece of chicken and first thing I get is the texture of the skin (rubbery, bite through, etc...), second is the tenderness of the meat (dry, moist, etc), then the flavor will come through as I'm chewing. Ribs, same thing...undercooked, overcooked, or ideal is apparent immediately along with the tenderness if the membrane hasn't been removed. Brisket tenderness is apparent first. The pull test is accomplished prior to tasting, over/under/ideal cooked is strongly determined before even taking a bite. I think pork may be the one meat where tenderness and taste may be evaluated more closely together (in time) during the sampling, unless of course the pork has bone fragments and then the tenderness is apparent pretty quickly. I don't know if the scores should be weighted with taste/tenderness equal, taste>tenderness, or tenderness<taste...I'm just relaying the way things appear to me when I'm judging.

 

[Lake Dogs]

The single biggest factor in the average or even the winning entries in a sanctioned cookoff of some size to an un-sanctioned (ala. Back Yard) is the tenderness of the entries. I've had plenty that taste fine, but had ghastly texture/tenderness. By a long margin this one piece separates the men from the boys. With a little practice anyone can hit a decent taste profile and presentation, but to get it tender and moist, rendering almost all the fat, without getting mushy takes time and practice.

 

[Lake Dogs]

And now for something completely different......

I think that taste and tenderness are so intertwined that they should be one score:boxing:

Respectfully I'll disagree. I've seen MANY (contrary to someones earlier post) that had terrible tenderness (usually undercooked, but sometimes overcooked and/or mushy) that tasted GREAT, and I've also seen plenty where they nailed the texture/tenderness but the flavor was off. A good judge will pull the meat apart, squeeze it, etc. for tenderness and only afterwards take a bite.

 

[Bigdog]

... and the judges want food that "taste" great.

...less filling!!:wink:

BOT: I have a different angle. Although I agree that taste "should" have a higher score, why not make them all the same due to the fact that what tastes good to one person may not taste good to another. Maybe the scores would be more fair this way.

 

[BearCat]

How about Appearance (lowest weighted) Taste/Tenderness (highest weighted) & Creativity (middle weighted). Adding creativity .........

I agree on my first comp attempt here in the Midwest I used a Carolina style mustard sauce on my pork which I think is the best way to have pork, and afterwards talking to the organizer about our scores, just to get an idea of where to go. She told me this is a BBQ contest not really a Mustard contest. I was blown away as I always thought BBQ was a style of cooking not a sauce.
As I have learned if the Judge does not taste BH then you did not provide a good taste. Therefore open up the Creativity and let the judges work to know all the flavors that are out there.

 

[Carnivorous Endeavors BBQ]

I'm with Landarc on this one...Great Texture with no flavor or great flavor with bad texture will both get you nowhere. The are intertwined in my mind. They should be weighted equally for scoring but still be separate scores as they are unique but equally important.

 

[QansasjayhawQ]

Being we are competing for the title of 'the best', shouldnt the winner be the one to conquer the biggest challenge.

There is no one single biggest challenge (of the three) to overcome. What I look for when I judge (and therefore when I cook) is the Total Package - hitting high marks in every aspect is going to determine how well I've done.

Think about a basketball team. I can think of a couple times where high shooting percentages, a high number of assists, low turnovers have all been there - but if their free throws are stinky then they almost (or do) lose.

Same here with BBQ - the team that consistently hits all attributes right on the money each time will do the best.

Is it subjective? Somewhat. But there has to be a reason the same top teams win again and again each weekend. They are pleasing a (mostly) different set of judges each time.

The Total Package is the ultimate challenge.

That's what I think anyway - for whatever that's worth!

 

[Jorge]

I understand the point, but I just can't quite buy into it.

I agree that it's relatively easy to make something taste good with all of the off the shelf ingredients available. Making it taste good enough to win is a different matter, and there is room for a lot of creativity in tweaking the entry prior to placing it in the box. That's one area where a lot of the more consistent, and successful, cooks shine. I know a well known cook that I've watched perform a miracle on what was mediocre product by his standards. It is also an area where the cook has almost total control over their final product. Sometimes meat will take on different levels of flavor for various reasons, but in the end the cook does have the opportunity to either fix or mask deficiencies.

If you increase the importance of texture/tenderness I suspect in time you will see cooks resort to the shotgun approach I learned when I first started learning to cook comp BBQ. In those days, cooking 4 select-choice grade briskets wasn't a problem and cost was no issue. Today, it's a different story. A team that can afford to cook 4 Wagyu briskets and stagger them slightly picks up a competitive advantage before they even unload the first cooler. If the solution is to have the organizer provide meat, then you open the door to favored teams getting the better meat etc... Beyond that, I believe that meat selection is something that should be left to the cook. Let the cook demonstrate what they can do with the meat of their choice, which best fits the cooking style they have chosen.

And finally, have you ever told someone that you'd go back to a restaurant because the steak tasted OK but it was really tender and perfectly cooked?

 

[ique]

I agree 100%, but let's face it.. you, as a competitor, are there to please the judges... and the judges want food that "taste" great.

Interesting points Phil. But I agree with Vinny here. The most important aspect of barbecue is that it tastes great so that should get the highest weight. Who cares if you nailed texture if the rib tastes like lighter fluid?

 

[Lake Dogs]

I agree on my first comp attempt here in the Midwest I used a Carolina style mustard sauce on my pork which I think is the best way to have pork, and afterwards talking to the organizer about our scores, just to get an idea of where to go. She told me this is a BBQ contest not really a Mustard contest. I was blown away as I always thought BBQ was a style of cooking not a sauce.
As I have learned if the Judge does not taste BH then you did not provide a good taste. Therefore open up the Creativity and let the judges work to know all the flavors that are out there.

DUDE! While her comment was a bit of a **** *** comment, the truth is simply that mustard sauces are not only very regional, but really only about 30% of people like them. You're trying to average UP, not average DOWN. You'd be much better to go without sauce than even the worlds best mustard sauce. I love some, but I'd never put that forth in a competition. 2 judges will love it, but the other 4 will kill you sure as shootin', and we dont want that, do we?

Anyway, this is a thread hijack. Sorry, back on topic.

Creativity? Ummm... In presentation its really considered a mark and could get you DQ'd. In flavors? At some point it stops being barbecue and becomes something else. I'm reminded of a chili cookoff (this really happend, but it's an analogy) where the team next to us cooked 200 rib eyes (it was a large cookoff). They seasoned them with a little garlic and chili powder, grilled them up, sliced them into fairly small pieces, and presented that as chili. While it was some of the best eats of that day, they scored way way way down towards the bottom. Seems everyone decided that while it was delicious, it wasn't chili. Anyway, same goes barbecue, IMHO. Barbecue has many hundreds of years of tradition, and the farther we go from that tradition (being creative) the less barbecue we have...

 

[RangerJ]

Anyway, same goes barbecue, IMHO. Barbecue has many hundreds of years of tradition, and the farther we go from that tradition (being creative) the less barbecue we have...

You mean like no fat underneath chicken skins? Family and neighbors won't touch the stuff, they like me just to season it and throw it on the pit. If the skin comes off so be it.

I think taste is "winner" in this but I believe that appearance and tenderness set the stage. The aforementioned lighter fluid example is spot on.

 

[Sawdustguy]

On more than one occasion I have heard cooks Johnny Trigger, Chris Hart, Steve Farrin etc. claim that perfectly cooked meat wins contests. It kind of makes sense. I think a lot of the top cooks use similar or the same ingrediants. I hear the big boys are using Blues Hog, Smoking Guns, The Slabs, Plowboys etc. How different can the flavor profiles be? I do agree the greatest challenge is tenderness/texture. Maybe they should be reversed. It makes sense to me.

 

[Sledneck]

I think the who has the best blues hog food contest is easier than how well i can cook so im gonna stay on the side of taste being weighted the highest. in fact tenderness should be dropped lower than appearance. I want my putting greens to get the credit they deserve. Great tasting Beef jerky is awesome, think about it

 

[BearCat]

I hear ya DOG, I have adapted and mustard stays at home.

Maybe i will get into a comp that wont alow sauce sometime (then judges wont know what to do without the BH,) and see how my rubs work.

 

[YankeeBBQ]

When we teach our classes we talk about the last few minutes before we put the food in the box. This is the chance you have to take your food to that next level and get the taste just right. I know a lot of teams that don't even taste their entry's before turning them in. That's a big mistake in my opinion. Judges don't have salt and pepper shakers so you better taste the food and decide if it needs a little kick. That's why taste is more important in my opinion. True you can't fix the tenderness at the last minute but you sure can improve the taste.

 

[Lake Dogs]

I hear ya DOG, I have adapted and mustard stays at home.

Maybe i will get into a comp that wont alow sauce sometime (then judges wont know what to do without the BH,) and see how my rubs work.

On MBN comp tables we see about 50% ribs without sauce, maybe 60-70% without in a few competitions. Pork, almost never with sauce, so probably 80%... That has changed a little lately; we're seeing more sauced pork. It was about 95% without, and then it was presented on the side. Now 70% or 80% without, and mostly on the side, except ribs....

 

[Q-Dat]

What if each contest were sponsored by a different rub and sauce, and each competitor were required to use at least half of each as their rub and sauce. That would leave plenty of room for creativity but have everyone using the same base.

The sauce and rub makers win with some great advertising, and then more emphasis could be placed on texture. Might be tricky to enforce, but I bet something could be worked out.

Just a thought.

 

[Podge]

I think taste and tenderness should be the same score, they both affect each other.

 

[Podge]

I think the who has the best blues hog food contest is easier than how well i can cook so im gonna stay on the side of taste being weighted the highest. in fact tenderness should be dropped lower than appearance. I want my putting greens to get the credit they deserve. Great tasting Beef jerky is awesome, think about it

Ya don't need Blues hog to win a contest ! :thumb: