Question experienced KCBS Comp persons

[bbally]

I travel all over. Have cooked in 29 different states. I've never changed a thing. I've had a little success with scoring...

So do you sauce Ribs? Chicken? Pulled Pork? Brisket?

 

[Capn Kev]

Yes I looked into that possibility. And don't get me wrong, I give due to those that do this and win at it, they are good I am sure. I am just trying to find out if they do well because they have figured out what KCBS teaches is correct (IE sauce on Ribs) or if they do well because they have figured out how to expertly cook the barbeque specialty of each region they go to?

It looks to be the former rather then the latter from replies so far to me.

Which is OK, I just want to know, master barbeque judge all genre? Or master judge of what KCBS considers barbeque, sauce the chicken or lose?

Let me clarify. Using chicken as an example... I sauce my chicken, but that does not mean you have to sauce your chicken to win. I lightly sauce because it's another layer of flavor in the overall profile. I also leave the skin on...some do not. There are about 13 other steps in my chicken process that build up to what goes into the box. Same thing goes for ribs. I sauce because it blends with the spices/seasonings going into my flavor profile. Again, that doesn't mean you have to do so in order to win, and I have tasted some amazing ribs that do not use sauce.

One thing to note is that I compete in Kansas City Barbeque Society competitions. Kansas City is known for their amazing sweet sticky sauces. So, when I cook, I try to emulate what I know to be Kansas City BBQ. If were cooking in another organization's competition, I'd find out what the baseline profile is, and build from there.

Again, if you're unwilling to modify your recipes to achieve success with the judges, then competition is probably not for you.

Just my $.02

 

[bbally]

When I first tasted a winning entry, it didn't matter what "profile" the judges were looking for, I KNEW that was good BBQ. It had a resonating taste, was really moist, and was perfectly tender.

I have tasted the winning barbeque at all three events. That is why I think they are after the icky sticky sweet sauce of Kansas City.

And I agree that it was excellent for the style that it was cooked under. I am not and never would infer that the winning barbeque is crap. I am just saying it looks to me after tasting what is placing that icky sticky sweet is some how being taught.

But I have not travel to a comp in North Carolina to see if vinegar based wins there or if KCBS judges demand icky sticky sweet there from a region that is vinegar based?

I taste barbeque for the style it is produced under, but after tasting some winning I am not convinced that KCBS judges judge it under the style it is produced under, I think they judge it under Kansas style barbeque no matter the genre it was produced under.

 

[Capn Kev]

I agree with you on experience for judges, but are they told it must be sauced? Or presented sauced items as the perfect product?

No, they do not tell you that the product must be sauced. The entry is to be judged upon it's own merits. A perfect looking savory piece of chicken can score just as well as a sweet and sticky piece of chicken candy. It's all about balance. That's what is taught.

 

[2Fat]

So I figure that KCBS puts on a judge training, they have someone cook what is consider bad, average, good, and great barbeque?

If so does the Chicken that is great always have a sauce on it?

Does the ribs they offer as great always have a sauce on it?

Pulled pork?

If so does the sauce model the icky sweet style of Kansas City Barbeque? or are there also what is consider great ribs presented with the coffee style of the southwest? Or the vinegar style of North Carolina? Or the dry spice rub of Memphis? Or the smoke and spice only style of Texas?


I agree with you on experience for judges, but are they told it must be sauced? Or presented sauced items as the perfect product?

The judging class doesn't teach taste--it shows you how a box should/could look and you sample the food of whomever volunteered to cook for the class--sometimes very good sometimes not.
If you cook a product that doesn't offend anyone(think middle of the road) flavorwise and is done to perfection you will have the winning secret figured out---it ain't complicated its bbq---and when it stops being fun spend the weekend at the lake!

 

[bbally]

Having placed in the lower tenth (and not knowing how you placed in other comps), and the unwillingness to change your recipes, I would have to say that maybe competition barbecue is not for you. After all, the majority of teams that compete are in it for the friendships they build, and eating barbecue, but are also there to win. That's why it's a competition and not a family picnic, they want to be able to say they were the best on that particular day.

Honestly alway in the lower tenth, except brisket 9th one time. Brisket seems to be the only thing that is judged without sauce to the results I have seen. (and yes I know the data set is small that is why I asked the questions here as I know lots of people here hit many compeitions. I cannot once the wedding season starts up.)

I also compete for the same reasons, I have a great time at the three I have been to so far.

But the data set indicate that I should sign up for one meat, do the special classes and the public choice and skip the KCBS entry and use that money to give away more food.

And that is why I am asking the question. I am just trying to figure out if the comp part is geared toward sauce sweet stuff? If it is I have no problem with that I just don't want to waste time competing thinking a master barbeque judges is looking at the food thinking wow great southwest barbeque, if he/she is really thinking, this needs a sweet sticky sauce to place.

Not a problem with me, I am not complaining I am trying to verify what I am concluding is correct or not. So I can come to know if I need to change my entries to just do people choice tastings and the special classes and stay out of the KCBS meats.

 

[bbally]

and when it stops being fun spend the weekend at the lake!

I have had fun at all of them, and have met great people at all of them. I am just trying to figure out if they are keying on a style so I can adjust what I do as entries going forward.

I do go to have fun and meet people, I just don't want to keep wasting money on full entries if it has to be sauced, because I don't do sauce, so I can enter chicken to get to the event and just feed people's choice and specials. Not a problem, I enjoy that too.

 

[Scottie]

Take my class... otherwise There is no magic pixie dust.... there are many different paths to create award winning BBQ. Some sauce, some don't. Probably somecofcyhe best ribsvthat I have ever tasted have no sauce on the ribs. This Guy is always in the ToY... you have to practice to see what the judges want. You only get that by experience... personally I wouldn't worry aboutvthe smallvetuff. Make excellent BBQ and it shows with your scores....

So do you sauce Ribs? Chicken? Pulled Pork? Brisket?

 

[bbally]

I travel all over. Have cooked in 29 different states. I've never changed a thing. I've had a little success with scoring...

This is interesting. This would indicate that there is one specific style they are looking for and you have found it. But that is amazing when you consider all the regional preferences across the country for what is barbeque.

When I joined KCBS I figured that you had to be a master of all genre of barbeque to compete across the country, but it appears you have to figure out what genre they want and it stays the same across the country?

If that is true and it is Kansas City sweet... then all the meats but brisket are basically judged (due to two hundred twenty eight percent weighting) on the sauce? Or at least the sauce profile? Makes it seem more like a figure out the magic sauce contest instead of a barbeque contest?

But how do judges from across the different regional preferences end up on a sweet and sticky profile?

 

[Jeff_in_KC]

Dude! You're gonna have a stroke overthinking all this. It's really simple... good food is good food, regardless of where it is. Just cook what you want, turn it in and if you don't score high, well then you have a choice to make - either you want to change only your competition recipes (doesn't mean you have to cater likewise - I don't think many of us do) and try to improve or keep doing what you're doing. As much as anyone, I hate finding out about judges who make comments like "I don't like spicy barbecue so I judged it down". But you know what? People have opinions and I have no doubt it happens all of the time. So what do you do? If you want to win, your cooking has to migrate more closely towards what a majority of the judges like right now. And when new things make an impression and the methods/flavors spread, what's popular and scoring well will change. Personally, I don't like my food - well just chicken and ribs mainly - because I prefer spicy barbecue myself. But I know if I light a judge's ass on fire with MY favorite, I've got a chance to be DAL that day. But I enjoy competing so I go with what's most likely to score well.

 

[landarc]

BBally, I am no experience comp cook, but, last year I had the chance to sit down with some of the top BBQ comp guys in CA and got to ask them, as CBJ's, how the whole system works and why the emphasis on the appearance and tenderness scores, was this just a skewing because I see it on forums. To a man, they explained that is has to do with the fact that often a competition is decided by fractions, that often the taste score is so close, that the appearance and tenderness do make a difference.

I noticed that while there are regional and organizational differences, there are some teams that win consistently, when I asked these guys, they explained to me that these 'super' teams (if you will) all have one thing in common and that is the meat they cook tastes great, tastes like the meat they are cooking and just tastes a little better than the others they tasted. These guys have had the opportunity in many cases to taste what the teams cooked, non blind, when they worked as support and not judges. I have had the opportunity as well, and the meat the top teams in Northern California produce is better than most, and it tastes better as meat, not sauce or rub, it still comes down to the meat.

 

[bbally]

Dude! You're gonna have a stroke overthinking all this. It's really simple... good food is good food, regardless of where it is.

Thanks... don't worry I am not going to stroke out over food. With 34 years of cooking professionally that won't happen by a long shot.

As I said before I am just trying to figure out if there is a profile as I took a Master Barbeque Judge to mean something a lot more in depth than it apparently really means in KCBS.

It appears so far the answer is:

Icky Sticky Sweet with heat or risk DAL placing. (Or roughly the Kansas Style barbeque)

Not a problem, not going to stroke out, though I see you got plenty of thanks for your comment to me so I guess others think the same thing, but I am just trying to find out if a Master Barbeque Judge is a master of barbeque genre or are they keying on one type. The answer indicate they are keying on one type of barbeque, so its more a master sauce judge? At least on three of the meats.

This is important as mathmatics wise a 3 in taste (according to KCBS guidelines two below average barbeque) beats a nine in presention and ties a six (one above average) in tenderness. Which means a below average sweet sauce on the meat will tie an above average piece of cooked meat. So picking or emulating the correct sauce is very important in KCBS.

Again, not stroking out, just trying to understand going forward what master barbeque judge means as it is different then what I thought.

 

[landarc]

So, do you other guys agree with bbally that icky sticky sweet with heat is what the CBJ's are looking for? Is that the national profile? Honestly, I don't wholly agree with that contention. What say you hard core competitors?

 

[YankeeBBQ]

Hmmm let me see if I can simplify this for you. The bbq sauce business is a multi billion dollar business in this country. Most people think if you put bbq sauce on the stuff you throw in your crock pot then bingo you have made bbq. It's not a KCBS preference it's national preference to have 'icky sweet sauce' your words not mine... On bbq. So in conclusion if your not saucing your bbq then you are putting yourself at a distinct disadvantage. That's not to say unsauced bbq cant do well but it better be damn good to beat sauced bbq.

 

[Red Valley BBQ]

Might I suggest taking a CBJ class. It will really give the best idea of what the KCBS teaches judges and will help immensely if you want to do competitions. I became a CBJ over a year before I cooked my first comp. It really helped me understand what judges are looking for and shortened my learning curve. The only judging criteria that has "guidelines" is tenderness. Taste and appearance are purely subjective and can not be taught. Just because KCBS is the sanctioning body, they don't teach to look for "Kansas City" style barbecue.

In 2008 and 2010 our team finished first in ribs at the same contest. Each win was with a completely different sauce. One had quite a bit of heat to it, and the other was sweet by comparison.

Here are our scores:
Appearance
2008 88899
2010 78979
Taste
2008 98899
2010 98988
Tenderness
2008 96989
2010 99998
Total Score
2008 169.1430
2010 169.1428

As you can see, even with the emphasis on taste, every point is important.

Take a judging class, it will give you perspective.

 

[Red Valley BBQ]

So, do you other guys agree with bbally that icky sticky sweet with heat is what the CBJ's are looking for? Is that the national profile? Honestly, I don't wholly agree with that contention. What say you hard core competitors?

I say NAY. I have had barbecue WITHOUT the sauce that was incredible. On the same judging plate, I have had sauced barbecue that was incredible. But because I judge each on thier own merit, both recieved high marks. BTW, this was at the American Royal...in Kansas City.

 

[bbally]

I say NAY. I have had barbecue WITHOUT the sauce that was incredible.

Did it win?

If not what won?

I realize you probably won't know if it won due to the blind judging, but maybe you know if what won was sauced or not at the Royal?

I know barbeque without sauce tastes great, I make it that way, but will it win at a KCBS entry consistantly?

Are there any teams here that consistantly place high enough to walk without saucing chicken? Ribs? Pork?

I totally understand what you are saying you judge it very objectively, but are you the norm for a KCBS judge or an outlier cause you have more understanding of barbeque style and genre than most?

 

[bbally]

In 2008 and 2010 our team finished first in ribs at the same contest. Each win was with a completely different sauce. One had quite a bit of heat to it, and the other was sweet by comparison.

Would you say ribs would have to be sauced to be in contention?

Or would you considering sending in Memphis dry rub style ribs?

 

[Red Valley BBQ]

Would you say ribs would have to be sauced to be in contention?

Or would you considering sending in Memphis dry rub style ribs?

I would say with certainty that most ribs are sauced. If I could find a flavor profile with a dry rub that I thought was outstanding, I wouldn't hesitate to use it. I've experimented, but I haven't found that "winning" profile yet. I have however, used a dry rub on chicken wings in a grilling contest and taken 3rd. Unfortunately, that success hasn't carried over to the KCBS side. Whatever I think will give me the best chance to win, I will use.

 

[Trainwreck]

I think what you are trying to figure out is what flavor consistently wins at BBQ comps. I am by no means an expert as I have not been doing this long enough and I only cook 4 to 5 comps a year. The most important thing that I have learned so far is that I am not cooking for my tastes but for what I think the judges like. As a few others have stated here as long as you cook your meat perfectly and your flavor profile is not offensive you will do fine. By not offensive I mean it is well balance. Nothing stands out and has the chance to be noticed by a judge. IMO you will do better if you sauce your meats. When I first started I to did not agree that I should sauce but once I started saucing I received much better scores and actually started getting some calls. As someone else mentioned KCBS does not teach what the taste is suppose to be (I have not taken the judges class yet so I can not say for sure). It was hard for me to grasp in the beginning that I was not cooking for my tastes but for someone else's. You have to look at what the majority of the country likes as far as tastes. Now I can not speak for different regions as I have not traveled and cooked much in the past but this year we are branching out. I do not plan on changing anything other then more practice to make sure I am consistent in how my meat comes out. I do not think you want anything to be too sweet but a perfect balance of heat and sweet. What that exactly means you will figure out as you compete and practice and get better and better, or as others have said take a class from one of the teams that are consistently winning and they will share what they are doing. Bottom line perfectly cooked meat with a well balanced flavor profile will win every time. Not sure if that helps or not.